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Fury Movie Discussion.

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We're taking a Hollywood movie a bit too seriously imo.  The objective of Hwd movies is not to provide historical accurace, but dramatic effect to 1) put bums in seats and 2) promote the Hwd political agenda which is not pro military or pro anything which makes us proud of our Euro-centric history.

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15 hours ago, Erwin said:

We're taking a Hollywood movie a bit too seriously imo.  The objective of Hwd movies is not to provide historical accurace, but dramatic effect to 1) put bums in seats and 2) promote the Hwd political agenda which is not pro military or pro anything which makes us proud of our Euro-centric history.

^^^^This.

Second time today, Erwin.  I'm getting the heebee jeebees, lol!

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Hollywood movies are not  merely judged important on their historical accuracy (though that helps a lot), they're important due to the unspoken world view, the subtext embedded within the story. I recall in the mid-2000s the Pentagon felt compelled to pay a visit to the set of '24' and asked the writers to please tone it down with the 'righteous torture' scenes. Because they were having to un-teach a lot of nasty habits being brought in by recruits who watched that show. By that measure, Fury was a vile film. The subtext of the film is "You ain't doin' war right unless you're shooting prisoners of war in the back." Not to say that it didn't happen, but the movie was promoting the notion that it should happen.

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"We are defined by the stories we tell ourselves."

"Fury" is nihilistic.  "Saving Private Ryan" is noble.  The stories Hollywood films and national radio told to the men and women who grew up during Depression and fought the Second World War strike me as usually virtuous and inspirational.  The stories Hollywood tells today are mostly cynical and dystopian.  "Fury" was far less a film than it could have been.

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"We are defined by the stories we tell ourselves."

It should be alarming that the Chinese are investing so much in Hwd films - it basically ensures that you won't see any movies with Chinese as villains - these days it always seems to be the Brits, Germans or Russians (sometimes Arabs).  Even the appalling Chinese allies (N Koreans) are hardly ever used as the villains.  At least I am having trouble thinking of any such movies made this century.

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6 hours ago, Erwin said:

"We are defined by the stories we tell ourselves."

It should be alarming that the Chinese are investing so much in Hwd films - it basically ensures that you won't see any movies with Chinese as villains - these days it always seems to be the Brits, Germans or Russians (sometimes Arabs).  Even the appalling Chinese allies (N Koreans) are hardly ever used as the villains.  At least I am having trouble thinking of any such movies made this century.

 

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On 22.2.2018 at 4:55 PM, Badger73 said:

"We are defined by the stories we tell ourselves."

"Fury" is nihilistic.  "Saving Private Ryan" is noble.  The stories Hollywood films and national radio told to the men and women who grew up during Depression and fought the Second World War strike me as usually virtuous and inspirational.  The stories Hollywood tells today are mostly cynical and dystopian.  "Fury" was far less a film than it could have been.

Being virtuous and inspirational three months after the expected end of the war (christmas), the Huertgen Forest and the Battle of the Bulge was quite difficult for the front line soldiers one might think...

Saving Private Ryan is a hate-fest against Germans.

 

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On 18/2/2018 at 5:56 PM, ASL Veteran said:

If the German soldier was in the SS then perhaps it would be a little more believable / understandable but because it is just a random dude who isn't a fanatic it makes no sense

This made me wonder - did the US soldiers in WW2 hate the SS soldiers more than the regular kind? Were they even aware the German forces were divided into Heer and SS? As far as I know, the full extent of the SS crimes only came to light after the war.

I read that some types of soldiers (snipers, flamethrowers) were often executed when they surrendered, but that seems to be about their role on the battlefield, not their political affiliation.

Edited by Bulletpoint

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An interesting video, albeit flawed in certain respects e.g the Nazis view of "socialism" being the same as other socialists. But, that is for another forum, not this one.

For me, it only took one advert to know that this movie wasn't going to be my cup of tea.

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13 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

An interesting video, albeit flawed in certain respects e.g the Nazis view of "socialism" being the same as other socialists. But, that is for another forum, not this one.

For me, it only took one advert to know that this movie wasn't going to be my cup of tea.

At first, I thought you were discussing "Team America".  ;)

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13 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

This made me wonder - did the US soldiers in WW2 hate the SS soldiers more than the regular kind? Were they even aware the German forces were divided into Heer and SS? As far as I know, the full extent of the SS crimes only came to light after the war.

I read that some types of soldiers (snipers, flamethrowers) were often executed when they surrendered, but that seems to be about their role on the battlefield, not their political affiliation.

SS executed Canadian troops at Ardenne Abbey on June 6 or 7 in 1944 and of course there was the little incident during the Battle of the Bulge.  The title of my scenario 'Surrender Invites Death' comes from a quote by a Canadian officer who basically told his troops that surrendering to the SS amounted to an invitation to suffer a premature death at their hands.  So yeah, the western Allies regarded SS troops as different than other troops, although probably not to the extent as was normal on the Eastern Front.  Certainly not all SS were executed on sight, but it wouldn't be surprising for SS to be executed by Western Allied troops.

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On 2/26/2018 at 1:11 PM, DasMorbo said:

Being virtuous and inspirational three months after the expected end of the war (christmas), the Huertgen Forest and the Battle of the Bulge was quite difficult for the front line soldiers one might think...

Saving Private Ryan is a hate-fest against Germans.

On your first matter, to better clarify my writing, I inferred that the stories which the Americans who grew up to fight WW2 told themselves more often than not strove to inspire civic virtues much more than is done today.  To your point, the horrors of war in those particular campaigns certainly affected such sensibilities at war's ending and afterwards.  I did not reference what you may be inferring; that the United States had several blind spots regarding racism.  The 1963 film "The Victors"  more actively explores those points https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Victors_(film)

On your second matter, WW2 Americans profoundly hated Imperial Japan and were unwavering in hostility to Nazi Germany.  (Recall that Der Fuhrer declared war against the United States).  For SPR to omit and ignore such sentiment would be dishonest story telling.  Those American sentiments would subsequently change to the better for which I personally am grateful.

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13 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

This made me wonder - did the US soldiers in WW2 hate the SS soldiers more than the regular kind? Were they even aware the German forces were divided into Heer and SS? As far as I know, the full extent of the SS crimes only came to light after the war.

I read that some types of soldiers (snipers, flamethrowers) were often executed when they surrendered, but that seems to be about their role on the battlefield, not their political affiliation.

 

20 minutes ago, ASL Veteran said:

SS executed Canadian troops at Ardenne Abbey on June 6 or 7 in 1944 and of course there was the little incident during the Battle of the Bulge.  The title of my scenario 'Surrender Invites Death' comes from a quote by a Canadian officer who basically told his troops that surrendering to the SS amounted to an invitation to suffer a premature death at their hands.  So yeah, the western Allies regarded SS troops as different than other troops, although probably not to the extent as was normal on the Eastern Front.  Certainly not all SS were executed on sight, but it wouldn't be surprising for SS to be executed by Western Allied troops.

Then there are Wormhout and Le Paradis in 1940. Some managed to survive to become POW's once the Wermacht discovered them. So I can imagine that at the least rumours might have spread. Seem to remember that before being renamed to Commando the previous Special Service name was hated by those units because of the affiliation.

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9 hours ago, Badger73 said:

On your first matter, to better clarify my writing, I inferred that the stories which the Americans who grew up to fight WW2 told themselves more often than not strove to inspire civic virtues much more than is done today.  To your point, the horrors of war in those particular campaigns certainly affected such sensibilities at war's ending and afterwards.  I did not reference what you may be inferring; that the United States had several blind spots regarding racism.  The 1963 film "The Victors"  more actively explores those points https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Victors_(film)

Yeah, I got you on your first point. My point, why I like this movie, is that older movies often show a sanitized kitsch-version of what I read in peronal war-memoirs and certain historical works. Not so 'Fury'. A common statement of front-line soldiers was and is, that they expected war to be bad but are shocked at how gross it really is. This movie tries not to be nice to any audience group and that is good. It shows incidents which I call realistic after all I learned about war.

About racism - I am German, so I don't care about racism in the US that much. But thank you for the movie-tip. :)

9 hours ago, Badger73 said:

On your second matter, WW2 Americans profoundly hated Imperial Japan and were unwavering in hostility to Nazi Germany.  (Recall that Der Fuhrer declared war against the United States).  For SPR to omit and ignore such sentiment would be dishonest story telling.  Those American sentiments would subsequently change to the better for which I personally am grateful.

The analysis found signs (is that used correctly?) for Steven Spielberg having a Anti-German agenda in general. It concentrates on the depiction of suffering on both sides or the lack there of. US soldiers, when hit, show all the emotions you would expect: horror, pain, they scream and grimace. German soldiers on the other hand just fall down like puppets and never show any emotions.  Germans are shown as cold-blooded killers or deceitful liars (the prisoner begging for his life, belying his captors that he does not wnat to harm anybody) and nothing else.

That is classic demonization.

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13 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

SS executed Canadian troops at Ardenne Abbey on June 6 or 7 in 1944 and of course there was the little incident during the Battle of the Bulge.  The title of my scenario 'Surrender Invites Death' comes from a quote by a Canadian officer who basically told his troops that surrendering to the SS amounted to an invitation to suffer a premature death at their hands.  So yeah, the western Allies regarded SS troops as different than other troops, although probably not to the extent as was normal on the Eastern Front.  Certainly not all SS were executed on sight, but it wouldn't be surprising for SS to be executed by Western Allied troops.

After June 7th the antipathy was mutual, with the Canadians even being called "Tommie SS". It wouldn't be surprising if some of the Canadians who arrived here in the summer of '40 heard stories about Wormhout, and passed those stories on to later arrivals. And the Canadians were therefore determined to get their revenge in first. Perhaps IanL or another of our Canadian forumites, might be able to confirm or disprove that notion.

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On 2/28/2018 at 11:57 AM, DasMorbo said:

Germans are shown as cold-blooded killers or deceitful liars (the prisoner begging for his life, belying his captors that he does not wnat to harm anybody)

Yeah and then he just picks up a gun a the first chance he gets to gleefully gun down more Americans. I always thought that was one of the most ridiculous parts of the whole movie.

It's basically the old story of the turtle and the scorpion. The scorpion promises the turtle it won't sting it, yet does so anyway. "Yeah well, I'm a scorpipon, that's what I do" it reasons.

If Saving Private Ryan had been a war-time propaganda movie, it would have made sense to dehumanize the enemy, because if you don't do that, how are you going to convince yourself to pull the trigger?

But so many years after the war,  why was such a big opportunity to tell a more nuanced story about the war wasted?

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2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

But so many years after the war,  why was such a big opportunity to tell a more nuanced story about the war wasted?

Because "a more nuanced story" rarely puts bums on seats. Sadly.

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