Mac 10.9.3, Powerbook, 36% hang

[Buzz]

Andy 101… ”Red Thunder loads perfectly on the biggest maps and with the largest armies. It feels like a miracle! I've been having HUGE battles, which I've never been able to do in the other games….I was just wondering why that could be? What's the difference between Red Thunder and the other games? “

CMRT (Mac & PC) is already using v3.0 of the game engine.

Andy 101… “Now is there something in the programming of Red Thunder that makes it more stable?”

I suspect v3.0 of the game engine. CMBN & CMFI were "stable" loading everything playing great before Apple broke OpenGL 2/2014.

Jammersix … “Since the system is the same, that sounds like proof that it's not "the system".

OS X is the same aka OpenGL broken... but... CMRT Mac is using v3.0 of the game engine.

Jammersix … “The game, with appropriate programming, can be made to conform to and run on the system.”

CMRT Mac is using v3.0 of the game engine.

Just for clarity.... one more time...

CMRT Mac is using v3.0 of the game engine.

CMBN & CMFI v3.0 game engine Mac upgrades (not patches) are being developed now.

As has been posted by many, many, many times before…. CMSF - CMBN -CMFI all had "appropriate programming" from Battlefront .... before..... Apple broke a core feature of OpenGL of OS X in their rush to patch their OS X security hole.

Apple was warned that Apple's not "appropriate programming" had broken a core feature of OpenGL and Apple has never completely fixed their fault. Things are better on a stock Mac in 10.9.4 but not a complete fix.

Battlefront reported to Apple their broken core feature of OpenGL of OS X and worked with Apple to get them to fix Apple’s screw up.

Maybe Apple will realign itself to the OpenGL standards in 10.10 to fix their 36% load problem?

Battlefront's new Mac game CMRT, using v3.0 of the game engine works very, very well as Andy 101 admitted.... see above.

Mac CMBN & CMFI v3.0 game engine Mac upgrades (not patches) are being developed now. I suspect these v3.0 game engine Mac upgrades (not patches) will resolve the 36% load problem Apple created.

As for CMSF…. I do not expect Battlefront to program a workaround for Apple’s OpenGL OS X screw up.

Battlefront is finishing CMBS on their work bench now and CMSF -2 should be on offer as at least a v3.0 game engine Mac in the future.

Maybe Apple will realign itself to the OpenGL standards in 10.10 to fix their 36% load problem ?

Many knowledgeable participants with much greater programing knowledge and experience have posted here about this issue. The cause / solution of Apple's 36% load problem should be very clear by now ... if you read the details of this thread.

[Jammersix]

The game is broken. If Battlefront is fixing it, that's good news.

The rest is arm waving in my book.

[Andy_101]

Andy 101… ”Red Thunder loads perfectly on the biggest maps and with the largest armies. It feels like a miracle! I've been having HUGE battles, which I've never been able to do in the other games….I was just wondering why that could be? What's the difference between Red Thunder and the other games? “

CMRT (Mac & PC) is already using v3.0 of the game engine.

Andy 101… “Now is there something in the programming of Red Thunder that makes it more stable?”

I suspect v3.0 of the game engine. CMBN & CMFI were "stable" loading everything playing great before Apple broke OpenGL 2/2014.

Jammersix … “Since the system is the same, that sounds like proof that it's not "the system".

OS X is the same aka OpenGL broken... but... CMRT Mac is using v3.0 of the game engine.

Jammersix … “The game, with appropriate programming, can be made to conform to and run on the system.”

CMRT Mac is using v3.0 of the game engine.

Just for clarity.... one more time...

CMRT Mac is using v3.0 of the game engine.

CMBN & CMFI v3.0 game engine Mac upgrades (not patches) are being developed now.

As has been posted by many, many, many times before…. CMSF - CMBN -CMFI all had "appropriate programming" from Battlefront .... before..... Apple broke a core feature of OpenGL of OS X in their rush to patch their OS X security hole.

Apple was warned that Apple's not "appropriate programming" had broken a core feature of OpenGL and Apple has never completely fixed their fault. Things are better on a stock Mac in 10.9.4 but not a complete fix.

Battlefront reported to Apple their broken core feature of OpenGL of OS X and worked with Apple to get them to fix Apple’s screw up.

Maybe Apple will realign itself to the OpenGL standards in 10.10 to fix their 36% load problem?

Battlefront's new Mac game CMRT, using v3.0 of the game engine works very, very well as Andy 101 admitted.... see above.

Mac CMBN & CMFI v3.0 game engine Mac upgrades (not patches) are being developed now. I suspect these v3.0 game engine Mac upgrades (not patches) will resolve the 36% load problem Apple created.

As for CMSF…. I do not expect Battlefront to program a workaround for Apple’s OpenGL OS X screw up.

Battlefront is finishing CMBS on their work bench now and CMSF -2 should be on offer as at least a v3.0 game engine Mac in the future.

Maybe Apple will realign itself to the OpenGL standards in 10.10 to fix their 36% load problem ?

Many knowledgeable participants with much greater programing knowledge and experience have posted here about this issue. The cause / solution of Apple's 36% load problem should be very clear by now ... if you read the details of this thread.

Thanks for clarifying everything for me Buzz. You're awesome! And thanks for your patient responses to all involved parties.

Oh and Jammersix, I admire how stubborn and determined you are, but I do think you might consider capitulating on this one, eh?

I'm looking forward to the mac updates for CM:BN, and CM:FI. Can't wait to be able to get into a proper campaign!

Thanks all.

A. "-)

[Jammersix]

Sure, I'll capitulate.

If Battlefront is going to fix it, I'll be happy. I could have done without the arm waving, but if it gets fixed, it'll go down on the list with system 7.0, system 8.0, system 9.0 and system X.

I have old copies of the original Combat Mission that "Apple Broke", if you'd like them.

They still don't run, because System 7.0 (or whatever it was) didn't conform to something, something.

[Buzz]

Andy 101 - "Thanks for clarifying everything for me Buzz. You're awesome! And thanks for your patient responses to all involved parties....."

You are welcome. It is easy to get misinformation and become uncertain about any problem. Knowing the facts helps us make good decisions.

I am also ready for the CMBN & CMFI v3.0 game engine Mac upgrades

What I predict will be exceptionally awesome will be the new modern game CMBS

Modern in all its Mac v3.0 game engine goodness.

[Jammersix]

At this point, I'd settle for a game that runs.

[Fencible]

So we've been waiting patiently for someone to address this problem. Since Apple doesn't appear to be doing anything, how about Battlefront getting out a patch? I think we've all been waiting long enough.

Fencible

[Jammersix]

I doubt it. They seem to be working through the denial phase, but they have bargaining and acceptance yet to go.

And Buzz wants to convince us that Red Thunder is a substitute for Shock Force.

I hope it runs.

[DougPhresh]

I'm confused.

What is being done to make sure that the copy of CMSF that I purchased for $55 works on my Mac?

I don't care whose fault it is, I just know that I would rather have one application conform to the rest of my OS than downgrade my OS and risk many more applications not running.

[Jammersix]

[crickets chirping]

[McGlu]

Just checked for the 36% hang on OS X 10.9.5 on my iMac late 2012 and it's still there.

I really enjoy the games that Battlefront produces, and I want them to succeed and continue making games on Mac.

But this is now reaching the frustration point. The issue is well known. There is an apparent workaround for the problem, as RT has proven. Yet BF continues to point fingers at Apple and to sell their products for Mac knowing that the problem exists.

All I want is to be able to play larger missions on my Mac. Still waiting on the Mac 3.0 update for Normandy, also.

When is this going to be resolved?

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I have literally hundreds of games for my Mac on Steam and not one has issues with loading 3D data since the Mavericks updates. This would lead one to believe that the issue lies more on the side of BF than on Apple. :shrug:

[grunt_GI]

Sigh, sadly, it appears that the CMSF issues will not get resolved for Mavericks.

SO, the disaster scenario for my BFC friends now becomes "what happens if Yosemite continues the 36% crash for CMSF?" Have any of your test/developers done any experimentation with the Beta version to see what it does? I know the 3.0 upgrade will fix my minor issues with CMBN and hopefully CMFI, which I don't have.....yet, but CMSF is a different matter.

Unfortunately, although Buzz may be correct that Apple broke it...I am going to have to agree with Jammersix that either BFC needs to fix Apple's screwup or else properly advertise that CMSF for Mac is only about 50-75% playable under the current version of OS X.

Given Apple's apparent lack of interest in fixing their Nvidia driver problem, it is my belief that continuing to sell a product that may--I say may because I don't know, but I am pessimistic now---not work under OS 10.10 is not going to be good for business...I really hope that Mac players will not go into the wilderness for CMSF...I did that once and it was bad...I bought Windows XP JUST to play CM under BootCamp.

I, for one, would happily accept a delay in the superwhamadyne CMBS release to get a bug fix for CMSF. I love this game so much I bought BOTH the full PC version and the full Mac version. I remember the years of CM exile when Apple switched from QD Rave to Open GL. I would HOPE BFC would overcome Apple's screwup and support their CMSF community. I know we may never see a full CMSF 2 or even an full upgrade to the engine, but a bug fix would be a real boon to the loyal Mac fan base.

I know coding it will be a PITA, it appears your team understands the issue from preparing the 3.0 upgrades for CMBN and CMFI.so is there ANY chance or reallocating some resources to put together a patch? Like Jammersix, I am not looking for a major upgrade here..I would just like to be able to play more of the NATO content...which seems to nearly ALWAYS crash.

Thus endeth my rant.

[Guest]

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I have literally hundreds of games for my Mac on Steam and not one has issues with loading 3D data since the Mavericks updates. This would lead one to believe that the issue lies more on the side of BF than on Apple. :shrug:

We use a piece of OpenGL that a lot of people don't. It happens to be a piece that Apple has broken pretty thoroughly. This is not uncommon for them to do, but usually they do manage a fix in the next minor update.

At this point there have been multiple minor updates with no fix. There is no way around it for us. I have worked on the issue extensively and we can't eliminate the broken OpenGL piece without a complete rewrite of portions of our pipeline... which would necessitate a patch being released one way or the other.

I have raised the question internally of doing an immediate hotfix including the workaround for the Mac version of CMSF, as it's apparent from 10.9.5 that Apple either can't or won't fix this problem. I'll report back on the timeline when I have it.

[grunt_GI]

We use a piece of OpenGL that a lot of people don't. It happens to be a piece that Apple has broken pretty thoroughly. This is not uncommon for them to do, but usually they do manage a fix in the next minor update.

At this point there have been multiple minor updates with no fix. There is no way around it for us. I have worked on the issue extensively and we can't eliminate the broken OpenGL piece without a complete rewrite of portions of our pipeline... which would necessitate a patch being released one way or the other.

I have raised the question internally of doing an immediate hotfix including the workaround for the Mac version of CMSF, as it's apparent from 10.9.5 that Apple either can't or won't fix this problem. I'll report back on the timeline when I have it.

Thanks very much...that's fantastic...does the BETA version of Yosemite fix this problem? Not that it's ideal, but if we believe Apple's timeline that it will be released soon, then maybe the problem will resolve itself...BUT, if it doesn't....I for one would really be grateful for a patch since I don't expect a CMSF 2 soon...or ever....

[McGlu]

Very good news. Thanks for the insight and for listening, Phil.

[Wicky]

From http://www.xlr8yourmac.com

Nvidia's posted a 334.01.03 driver update for OS X 10.9.5 build 13F34. (See notes on "Additional Information" tab on linked page that asks you ensure that's your OS X version/build.) There's also a recent CUDA 6.5.18 update for OS X 10.9.5 compatibility.

New in Release 334.01.03f01:

Graphics driver updated for Mac OS X Mavericks 10.9.5 (13F34)

Contains performance improvements and bug fixes for a wide range of applications.

Includes NVIDIA Driver Manager preference pane.

[Jammersix]

Wicky, I'd like more information, please.

Is this something we have to do in addition to the 10.9.5 update, or is it in the update?

I do, indeed, have 13F34, but I don't see a preference pane for the NVIDA driver.

[Buzz]

Jammersix,

I tried NVIDIA Releases Alternate Graphics Drivers for 10.9.5 (334.01.03f01)

No graphics improvement with NVIDIA web driver on CMBN/FI/SF but it did not break CMRT.... on my machine. I reverted back to 10.9.5 default driver.

If you go to the Nvidia link, download the driver, install the package you will get a UI in system preferences that allows you to selsct web driver or default driver. Might help or not. If it does not you can revert to the 10.9.5 default driver.

You did see the note from Phil Culliton #63 in the ETA Mac 3.0 upgrade I hope?

We use a piece of OpenGL that a lot of people don't. It happens to be a piece that Apple has broken pretty thoroughly. This is not uncommon for them to do, but usually they do manage a fix in the next minor update.

At this point there have been multiple minor updates with no fix. There is no way around it for us. I have worked on the issue extensively and we can't eliminate the broken OpenGL piece without a complete rewrite of portions of our pipeline... which would necessitate a patch being released one way or the other.

I have raised the question internally of doing an immediate hotfix including the workaround for the Mac version of CMSF, as it's apparent from 10.9.5 that Apple either can't or won't fix this problem. I'll report back on the timeline when I have it.

And his note #66

Yep, we're planning on doing a hotfix for CMSF; Apple changed something in their drivers that causes CM to crash pretty horribly on larger maps. We created a workaround and we'll push it out for CMSF at some point in the near future.

I think your Mac CMSF future is looking good. Hang in there

[grunt_GI]

Jammersix,

I tried NVIDIA Releases Alternate Graphics Drivers for 10.9.5 (334.01.03f01)

No graphics improvement with NVIDIA web driver on CMBN/FI/SF but it did not break CMRT.... on my machine. I reverted back to 10.9.5 default driver.

If you go to the Nvidia link, download the driver, install the package you will get a UI in system preferences that allows you to selsct web driver or default driver. Might help or not. If it does not you can revert to the 10.9.5 default driver.

You did see the note from Phil Culliton #63 in the ETA Mac 3.0 upgrade I hope?

We use a piece of OpenGL that a lot of people don't. It happens to be a piece that Apple has broken pretty thoroughly. This is not uncommon for them to do, but usually they do manage a fix in the next minor update.

At this point there have been multiple minor updates with no fix. There is no way around it for us. I have worked on the issue extensively and we can't eliminate the broken OpenGL piece without a complete rewrite of portions of our pipeline... which would necessitate a patch being released one way or the other.

I have raised the question internally of doing an immediate hotfix including the workaround for the Mac version of CMSF, as it's apparent from 10.9.5 that Apple either can't or won't fix this problem. I'll report back on the timeline when I have it.

And his note #66

Yep, we're planning on doing a hotfix for CMSF; Apple changed something in their drivers that causes CM to crash pretty horribly on larger maps. We created a workaround and we'll push it out for CMSF at some point in the near future.

I think your Mac CMSF future is looking good. Hang in there

Hmmm the way things are going for Apple these days...I think I would prefer a BFC patch..I think I would trust them more with my CMSF!!

[grunt_GI]

So, now that the CMBN/CMFI 3.0 engine for Mac is successfully launched...any bones about when a patch for CMSF might begin.....or end....with release?

[Jammersix]

Cue the crickets.

[grunt_GI]

BUMP, now that we appear to be getting close for CMBS...which looks awesome...any new bones, hints, nuggets, teasers...anything on a CMSF patch for OS X?

[Guest]

Cue the crickets.

If you want a response to a given thread, PM'ing me (as grunt_GI did, thanks!) or emailing me are encouraged. I don't spend a lot of time randomly popping around every single game forum we have... a little heads up helps.

As I told grunt_GI, the hotfix for CMSF is on my short-term radar. We're in the middle of making patches for a number of products, and I'm going to try and get the hotfix out during the same period or shortly thereafter.

[grunt_GI]

If you want a response to a given thread, PM'ing me (as grunt_GI did, thanks!) or emailing me are encouraged. I don't spend a lot of time randomly popping around every single game forum we have... a little heads up helps.

As I told grunt_GI, the hotfix for CMSF is on my short-term radar. We're in the middle of making patches for a number of products, and I'm going to try and get the hotfix out during the same period or shortly thereafter.

Thanks much! I am a firm believer in the polite squeaky wheel getting the grease!

AND I really want to try out those ISIS mods on a HUGE scale, which I can't do....yet.....

[Jammersix]

Thanks much! I am a firm believer in the polite squeaky wheel getting the grease!

I use money.