Mounted Halftrack infantry under fire

[bruno2016]

On 3/19/2017 at 10:31 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The Panther had a notoriously weak transmission and the user manual advises against pivoting in place IIRC:

https://archive.org/details/Panther-fibel-BetriebUndKampfanleitung

My German is a little rusty (non-existent TBH) but I suspect it may be in the section entitled 'Kurven'.....This is off the top of my head, I may well be wrong, I'll have a look in the relevant books and check if you want.

I'd guess all the same issues should apply to the Kingtiger as its transmission was every bit as overloaded, if not more so.

 

I agree that the transission was weak, that just confirms the game is inconsistent across tanks as the tiger II should rotate in its tracks at snail pace then1

Regarding turning speed, and as I mentioned above in my initial message, look how a Jagdtiger (the Porsche one captured by the British) turns quickly and smoothly on soft terrain even with a large radius, moreover with one suspension bogie less... I hope you will better see why I complain about the hectic way a HT or a wheeled vehicle makes a soft angled turn in the game

[John Kettler]

Sgt.Squarehead,

Watch the tracks on the KT starting around 1:41. This video has some rare footage of ones captured by the US and the Russians. The quality is pretty bad.

Believe you may also find 2:25 (Bergepanther) and 5:02 (Jagdtiger) of interest. No idea why the res is so bad. Have seen better.

Behold the sprightly, deftly pivoting Jagdtiger! See 0:49. For the tour de force see 1:24 and thereafter. Just try to do this in CMBS.
 

Contrast those with the horrendous turning circles of every US halftrack (nearly 20 meters) per TM 9-710 Basic Half-Track Vehicles, page 20.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited March 25, 2017 by John Kettler

[bruno2016]

Dear all,

I found this video showing how quickly a Stug turns at almost right angle. Move the cursor to 1:27 just for this: 

as to the way a HT can turn  - smoothly with no hiccup - at sharp angles, watch this one and go directly to time 6: 40.  

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

German halftracks are powered differently to US halftracks, I believe they use a different type of transmission too (they can steer with their tracks alone IIRC).....In essence a German halftrack is a small tank with two unpowered wheels on the front, a US half track is an all-wheel drive truck with tracks replacing the rear axles.

[bruno2016]

On 3/30/2017 at 5:55 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

German halftracks are powered differently to US halftracks, I believe they use a different type of transmission too (they can steer with their tracks alone IIRC).....In essence a German halftrack is a small tank with two unpowered wheels on the front, a US half track is an all-wheel drive truck with tracks replacing the rear axles.

Hello Squarehead,

Agreed, and this supports my point on the way the German HT's make turns in Combat Mission (and the speed) needs to be remodelled.

Same for most of the tanks (except, strangely enough as I mentioned above in the thread the Tiger II)

[George MC]

Just been watching a "new" German film with panzer grenadiers in action (not I should stress the usual one that crops up!) but a clip from this one:

https://filmhauer.net/kampf-schtzenpanzerwagen-herbst-1944-p-6426.html

In part 2 one of the SPW machinegunners is nailed from a distance by a Soviet ATR crew. Never seen that in "RL" before - but given training film it does illustrate a/ they were the guys the Soviet ATRs targeted and b/ the shield did not stop the bullet which punched through (pretty realistic depiction in the film) like a knife through butter.It has some great scenes with a mortar halftrack and gun track supporting the attack.

[Erwin]

Very cool videos. Thanks...

Very interesting that they were training the halftracks to zigzag violently at speed to avoid being shot at by ATR's while a MG would suppress the ATR teams. 

In this case, the halftracks were expected to close with the enemy rather than stay back.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Erwin

[George MC]

15 hours ago, Erwin said:

Very cool videos. Thanks...

Very interesting that they were training the halftracks to zigzag violently at speed to avoid being shot at by ATR's while a MG would suppress the ATR teams. 

In this case, the halftracks were expected to close with the enemy rather than stay back.

Aye interesting and unique film - the whole version is excellent - although there are only two fragments totalling ten minutes. What makes it unique is it illustrates the small unit tactics - battlefield recon, moving at speed through enemy artillery fire, heavy weapons (251/9 and 251/2 hanging back and suppressing or taking out enemy positions), platoon leader dismounting in cover to scope out enemy position, the attack moving at speed into and through the first line of the enemy positions (troops firing from the tracks) before dismounting to clear the main enemy position.

Bit moot come 44 how much of that type of attacking would be going in (if it was I guess it is how it was portrayed here - sealing or eliminating enemy breakthrough) but certainly makes for interesting watching.

[akd]

Seems that this film might be connected to the other one and to the development of the Panzer Brigade concept, which did have some success on the East Front.

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by akd

[George MC]

@akdthe film you like need to is the one I’m familiar with. 

What makes the section of film I linked to (appears to be newly discovered film as the guy I bought it from was just in the process of making a digital copy) unique is it shows the SPW, without armoured support, dealing with a variety of non armoured AT threats. It was surprising to see them being engaged by an ATR team and see the  ATR target the SPW machine gunner. The film made it clear that the MG shield was no protection against an ATR. 

The attack by the SPW against the ATR also highlights the SPW driving in a zig zag to avoid being targeted. I’ve read of that tactic but interesting to see it being used in the film. 

[Erwin]

That's a great video to accompany the CM2 training videos out there.  

[Aragorn2002]

On 24-11-2017 at 6:23 PM, George MC said:

Just been watching a "new" German film with panzer grenadiers in action (not I should stress the usual one that crops up!) but a clip from this one:

https://filmhauer.net/kampf-schtzenpanzerwagen-herbst-1944-p-6426.html

In part 2 one of the SPW machinegunners is nailed from a distance by a Soviet ATR crew. Never seen that in "RL" before - but given training film it does illustrate a/ they were the guys the Soviet ATRs targeted and b/ the shield did not stop the bullet which punched through (pretty realistic depiction in the film) like a knife through butter.It has some great scenes with a mortar halftrack and gun track supporting the attack.

Very interesting, thanks for that, George. I've read many comments about how the SPW's usually were not in action in the frontline itself, but served more as means of transport, but it never really convinced me. It would be such a waste of an excellent offensive weapon to only use it for bringing troops close to the action. And the Germans simply couldn't afford not to use them in an offensive way. The zig zagging is incredible to watch.

The MG shield seems to be very thin, probably especially made for this movie. The shields on the other vehicles look a lot thicker.

Great site btw.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Aragorn2002

[Boche]

im going to try that zig zagging in game see how it goes jaja

[sonar]

http://www.kingtigerebooks.co.uk/2015/11/the-german-motorised-infantry-regiment.html

HI,

Lots of info on how and where HT's were to be used however this is a 1941 publication so how this changed due to circumstance is still open to discussion.

Cheers

[Kaunitz]

On 3/10/2017 at 10:59 PM, RockinHarry said:

Thought I´d throw that in here. It´s from a german Panzergrenadier training manual as of January 1944. The given chapter (6) deals with Panzergrenadier mounted attack situations, figured worth to be trained in the training schools. Unfortunately I lack time to make the translations, but maybe someone else can extract the more interesting and revealing info?

 

Here is a quick and dirty translation:

Note that most of it is phrased in a very fragmented, brief way. Sometimes there are just catchwords, incomplete sentences. 

[title page]--------------

Combat training/instruction for Panzergrenadiers

A set of combat exercises for the armored as well as unarmored squad with 2 light MGs, to be used by the instructor of recruits in combat training

By Helmut von Wehren […]

Including 28 colored sketches

[p.67]------------------

Exercise 6: The armored squad in the attack

Goal of the exercise: Squad (armored) in the attack

Regulations [a list of regulations/field manuals that are refered to in the subsequent text very often; I have left out the citations in the text below]: Mounted combat (H[eeres]D[ienst]v[orschrift] 299/4a, Ziff. 36-47), Dismounted combat (H.Dv. 130/2a, Ziff. 268-285), Combat instruction (H.Dv. 472, Ziff. 57-91) with motor vehicle

 [p.68]--------------

II. Principles of training

a) Mounted combat

• 1. As much as the enemy’s fire, the terrain and the task allow it, the squad is to stay/fight mounted on the vehicle.
• 2. The primary purpose of the board-MG (either mounted on the swivel or resting on the shoulder of [another] soldier) is to fire during short fire-stops at ground or air targets. But it’s also possible to fire while the halftrack is moving. (especially if an enemy already deemed defeated comes to life again [“Wiederauflebender Feind”, term used below in one of the tasks])
• 3. The riflemen may take part in the fire fight during an assault or against targets of opportunity at short ranges. They shall also contribute to the effect of the automatic fire by throwing smoke-grenades. Running the enemy over [with the halftrack] can also be effective.
• 4. Proper usage of terrain, quick transition between fast movements and short fire-stops. Coordination with heavy weapons, artillery and fire support from the own unit.
• 5. Accurate, effective fire is only possible from a halted halftrack. Firing from a moving vehicle (short bursts of fire at short ranges) forces the enemy to seek cover and prevents him from using his own weapons (exploit moments of weakness!). A subsequent fire-stop for aimed/deliberate fire (“Abgabe von Zielfeuer”), raises the morale.
• 6. Fire position (“Randstellung” – vehicle is masked from the enemy’s view) – frequent change of position – covered advance. If enemy presence is suspected in terrain that is hard to oversee (high grass, short trees, grain fields), a small corridor (e.g. two hand’s widths right of that bush) can be designated and be sprayed/taken under preemptive fire [“abstreuen”]. Enemy MG and rifle fire needs to be passed through/overcome at high speed. Anti tank weapons or minefields may force the squad to dismount or to cover the halftrack in smoke to allow it to retreat into cover.

 b) Dismounted combat

• 1. Clever behavior of the MG and riflemen as part of the squad, especially proper usage of terrain, selection of fire positions, camouflage, recon, assessment of ranges, handling of the sight, point of aim, coordinated maneuvering between the MG and riflemen and adjacent/neighbouring squads.
• 2. Each individual soldier in the squad acts according to the task at hand, as an individual according to the intention of the squadleader.

[p.69]----------------------

• 3. Constant observation of the battlefield needs to be the basis for leading the squad, directing fire, usage of munitions and resupply. Achieve fire superiority. Effective employment of fire is more important than cover.
• 4. Commitment of light MGs and riflemen. The latter can be assigned a limited amount of ammunition [“Munitionsaufwand”] if their effect can be predicted. [? I’m not quite sure about this one. Perhaps it is referring to a fire order, e.g. that the riflemen are supposed to fire X rounds each; one would need to look that up in H.Dv.130]
• 5. Transition from dismounted to mounted combat in coordination with dismounted parts of the squad. Combat training with the halftrack.
• 6. Always take the easiest and safest path -  the skill level of the driver will increase over time -  when the squad is fighting mounted on the vehicle or dismounted in coordination with the vehicle.
• 7. Combined efforts of the crew and the vehicle to overcome obstacles.

III. Enemy – To set up the enemy, you need:

• 1. [This just tells the reader that everything should be prepared according to the tasks outlined below…]
• 2. Take note that it might be hard to hear the blanks fired by the [mock]enemy when the halftrack is moving. Therefore, an umpire may be used to signal the effect of enemy fire by waving a flag.

 IV. Situation/Briefing

• An enemy in prepared positions is defending along a general line (“allgemeiner Linie”) (point it out in the terrain). The company – its flanks are secure (“beiderseits angelehnt”) - attacks this enemy mounted, breaks through and takes the high ground (show them).
• Width of the company [misleading, the following information probably tells the participating squad its position within the company/platoon]: 1^st platoon right, 1^st squad in the center of the platoon

 V. Special instructions, given by the instructor

• The halftrack is in its starting position. The other halftracks are represented by sidecar-motorcycles or trucks. A sidecar-motorcycle equipped with a flag represents the platoon leader’s halftrack. The squad needs to orientate on it. The training starts with the blow of a whistle.

 VI. Sequence of the exercise

• The instructor needs to rehearse the tasks/situations with the recruit-private who will be leading the squad so that he will not make the wrong decisions whereby the objective of the training would be compromised. [so the main purpose here is to drill the members of the squad then, not decision making by the squad leader…]
• The training starts with the blow of the whistle. The squad leader gives the order “March!”. The tank rolls up.

 [p.70]------------------

[…]

1st task

• “Over there, at 1000m distance, you see smoke and small clouds of dust raise. You can hear projectiles/shells whistling by, hitting the tank.”
• Execution: Halftrack keeps going, makes a fire-stop, after calling out the target the squad leader orders the gunner to open fire, or, to fasten things up, the squad leader may fire himself [so this would leave out the complicated calling out of the target], followed by a wide leap/advance (200m), keep heads down. The squad leader and the gunner are observing the front. The grenadiers who are to be specially assigned to this task observe the flanks and the rear.
• The instructor checks whether the squad keeps up good observation of the battlefield. Observation must never be compromised even when in full cover. The halftrack makes fast leaps/advances, a short fire-stop and advances in bounds and mutual covering fire with the neighboring halftrack

 2nd task

• The first enemy positions taken, all of a sudden anti-tank projectiles are coming in. You can identify the AT gun further back, in the enemy’s rear area (“in der Tiefenzone”). Distance 700m. The company commander gives a signal, thrusting his arm upwards several times and points at a slight depression in the ground to your front.
• Execution: The squad leader gives the driver two bashes on the back and gives him the order “Quicker, forwards, into that hollow ahead of us”
• The instructor checks the driver’s shifting of the gears which ensures fast acceleration of the vehicle.

 3rd task

• Now in a covered position in the hollow, the company commander gives the signal to dismount and orders an assault.
• Execution: The squad leader orders the squad to dismount. “We will assault the anti-tank gun”
• The instructor checks whether the squad dismounts quickly, takes weapons and ammo along, and forms up for the attack immediately. Mingling around the halftrack must be avoided. The co-driver immediately takes over the board-MG, visual contact to the “Kfz.-Staffelführer” [? motor car squadron leader], close the doors! He [the Staffelführer, the instructor?] explains that the platoon-leader-halftracks [note: in the next task, we get the information that these have larger caliber guns] will approach the high ground carefully to suppress the anti-tank gun and provide covering fire for the squad.

 4^th task

• The attack is progressing well, the anti-tank guns of the platoon-leader’s halftracks [!] are engaged in a fierce fire fight with the enemy anti-tank gun. The attack against the anti-tank gun is successful, it is silenced/suppressed/knocked out [“niedergekämpft”]. A few rifle bullets are incoming. The company commander and the platoon leader give out the signal “halftrack, come here/approach”.
• Execution: The squad stays prone in its cover. Only the squad leader waves the halftrack nearer and gives the order to mount. The mounted squad will keep attacking.

[p.72]---------------------

• The instructor checks whether the halftrack approaches correctly. The co-driver opens the door (unless blocked by canisters and ammunition). The soldiers must never run backwards to mount the halftrack, instead, the halftrack drives forwards at a slow speed and the soldiers are to catch up to it and mount while it keeps going. The co-driver stays on the board-MG until the crew has fully remounted and is ready for action. Only then will he get back to his seat, and MG-gunner 1 take over the board-MG. Immediate 360° observation.

 5^th task

• The mounted attack has reached more [enemy] positions, drives over/passes through trenches and obstacles. The enemy comes to life again behind the halftrack
• Execution: The squad leader orders “Fire at will!” and points in the direction. Everyone fires to his side of the vehicle/from his current position.
• The instructor checks the distribution of fire, the grenadiers are supposed to reload/chamber rounds in the cover [that the halftrack provides], pop up out of cover very fast and fire immediately and then get back down into cover quickly, etc. Enemy positions at close range are to be destroyed with grenades.

Be aware of enemy grenades, block them with your hands [!]. If they fall into the halftrack, you will have troubles finding them in time. Casualties. Special attention/observation to the rear of the vehicle. By signals and squeezing the driver’s shoulder, the squad leader informs the driver about the driving direction: Squeezing the left shoulder – drive left; the right – drive right; Push on the head – stop; the neck – slow down. Push/tap on the back – speed up.

 6^th task

• The attack is stopped by a deep anti-tank ditch. The halftracks stop, you see how the company commander and your platoon leader are dismounting and giving out the signal “March!”. The second platoon is advancing dismounted over there.
• Execution: The squad leader orders “Jump off! [note: I’m not really sure whether the instruction differentiates “jump off” and “dismount”] We continue the attack! Halftrack get into cover, Co-driver establish contact to the Kfz. Staffelführer [? as above…], side-car (platoon-leader) [! makes no sense to me; remember that the platoon leader is represented by a side-car-motorcycle], Squad, march!”
• [Instructor-check: Dismounting procedure – same as above]

 

7^th task

• The dismounted attack is progressing well. You see how the halftracks are catching up, the enemy anti-tank gun is no longer firing. By means of digging off and the usage of “Knüppelrollen” [obviously something to fill up the ditch…], the halftracks were able to cross the anti-tank ditch. The company commander is remounting, the platoon leader is waving his halftrack nearer.
• Execution: The squad stays prone in its cover, the squad leader signals the halftrack to approach and orders “Mount!”, the squad will continue the attack mounted.
• [Instructor-check: Re-mounting procedure – as above]

 8^th task

• The mounted attack is progressing well. Over there you see your neighboring halftrack rocking over difficult, undulating terrain
• Execution: The squad leader orders “Halftrack, stop! Covering fire for halftrack on our right, fire at enemy MG over there in the bush!”
• (time leap) [!]

 9^th task

• The mounted attack is progressing well. Then you encounter another anti-tank ditch. The company has dismounted and overcome the ditch. The Kfz. Staffelführer [? as above] is busy digging off the ditch to bring the halftracks across. “Your squad is close to another enemy position. Heavy enemy rifle fire. You see the halftracks advance, spread-out in line (“in breiter Front”). The co-drivers are firing their board-MGs over your heads. Now the halftracks are passing through your squad. The enemy’s fire fades. Your platoon leader gives you the signal “March!”.
• Execution: The squad leader orders: “Up – March! March! Huzzah!”. The halftracks and the dismounted squads assault. Mop/roll up the enemy position.
• The instructor checks whether the assault is quick, and the squad en bloc makes a determined sprint, MG readied at the hip, throwing of grenades, loud cheers. Break through the position, halftracks join in.

 10^th task

• The enemy is defeated, all resistance has faded. Over there, the platoon commander is waving the halftracks nearer.
• Execution: [re-mounting procedure, as above…]

[here, the training ends, short debriefing by the instructor] 

[p.74]---------

Besides the above-mentioned tasks, the following situations may be trained:

•  Situation 1: Frontal fire from enemy MG position, distance 300m. / Execution: Suprress/knock out the MG from the stationary halftrack (“fire-stop”). / Check: Has the gunner identified the target and is his aim correct?
• Situation 2: Halftrack takes fire from the rear by a position of enemy riflemen. / Execution: The rear-MG opens fire immdeitately. / Check: Does the rear-gunner open fire immediately, on his own initiative, without order? Do the riflemen open fire if the MG jams? Is the jam fixed in the cover of the halftrack?
• Situation 3: Halftrack takes fire from an enemy MG position at 150m. / Execution: Race towards the enemy position, roll it over / Check: Has the gunner identified the target? Does the driver race to the target? Is the enemy position knocked out in close combat?
• Situation 4: While crossing a trench/ditch, the halftrack takes SMG and rifle fire from both flanks. / Execution: Fight the two enemy position with all weapons available. / Check: Does the crew on the right side of the vehicle target the enemy position on the right flank, the crew on the left the position on the left flank? Are the grenades on target? Is each soldier who is about to throw a grenade covered by a rifleman?

It’s also important to check whether the co-driver, manning the board-MG, is adequately covering the jump-off/in and dis/re-mount manouvres of the squad.

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Kaunitz

[SimpleSimon]

I think when people get bad results with infantry fighting from half tracks they would've had bad results from their dismounted infantry assault too. Lots of players seems to expect miracles of their infantry. "I attacked a prepared, motivated, heavily armed defender from disadvantaged ground guys what am I doing wrong?" lol. 

I do think there's some excessive vulnerability issues with riders and gunners in the half tracks, for the most part though they do exactly what I need them to do. Protect my infantry from bombardments. I think for the most part men weren't too crazy about fighting from within the vehicles. They were barely bullet proof and were designed primarily with splinter protection in mind. IFVs were a long ways off. 

Edited October 5, 2018 by SimpleSimon

[danfrodo]

Reminds of the 60 minutes show from 20 some years ago where they made a big scandal out of Bradley's not being able to take tank fire.  Considering they weren't designed to take tank fire.

Also, SimpleSimon, have you been watching me play?  That sounds like one of my infantry attacks exactly.

[SimpleSimon]

I think the issue they had with the Bradley was that it cost more than many tanks, western IFVs generally did though. There would've been no way to keep the Bradley's costs down too with the broad set of mission capabilities that were being demanded of it. The media of course went to no effort to explain any of this. That wouldn't make it a story and many journalists' careers hinge on making this molehill a mountain! 

That was my attacks for years too until I stepped back and soberly evaluated exactly what was happening. That I was demanding a bunch of nervous, barely literate farmhands armed with late 19th century repeating muskets to seize and plant my nation's flag upon a given knoll or izbas,. It took stacks of bodies before I realized that this was not reasonable and if the game was real I would have either been relieved and sent back to Iowa/Vladivostok/Lincolnshire for a desk job by my superior or fragged by one of my own men the next time I thought the latrine was safe. You could say that the Germans/Americans/Russians just put up a tough defense but honestly if it that knoll had been held by the Italian Mafia or the Zulu even, the results would not have been much different.

So step back and think about how badly you really need it and why you do. If you do, then you also need to remember that you are wielding the resources of a nation and should not send men, average men, to achieve Hollywood miracles when instead you could detail it to a mortar or send a tank instead. The men can go after that and then go around telling everyone what a pitched battle it was afterwards, just look at all those smoking craters I made with my bayonet! 

The point is they're alive to tell that. 

[George MC]

I've found that working with the constraints of the CM game engine that I get good results from my SPW if a/ I button them up and b/ give the MG a very, very short cover arc. Generally, this means that as they drive about they are less likely to attract rifle/SMG fire as there is no gunner poking his head up. Your SPW will still be fair game though to ATRs and HMGs (if close enough).