Arer foxholes bugged in CMRT?

[Rokko]

Hi folks,

I've played a number of CMRT scenarios by now and I have seen very often that troops in tiles with foxholes very rarely actually position themselves in the actual foxholes, but rather in the open ground around them. That seems to be especially the case if troops are not in foxhole tiles at the beginning of the game, so if troops move into foxholes later (be they dug by enemy or friend), they won't go into them.

I believe that was true as well for CMBN and CMFI, but not to that extent.

Has anyone else noticed that?

[Fizou]

Hi folks,

I've played a number of CMRT scenarios by now and I have seen very often that troops in tiles with foxholes very rarely actually position themselves in the actual foxholes, but rather in the open ground around them. That seems to be especially the case if troops are not in foxhole tiles at the beginning of the game, so if troops move into foxholes later (be they dug by enemy or friend), they won't go into them.

I believe that was true as well for CMBN and CMFI, but not to that extent.

Has anyone else noticed that?

I find it best to split squads and have individual teams take up position in the foxholes.

[emccabe]

It have noticed it too

make some of them go in by making them face another direction

and you can get them to run in if you make them move to a tile infront of the foxholes they will usually run through them and cancel the command and they are in

[AttorneyAtWar]

Hi folks,

I've played a number of CMRT scenarios by now and I have seen very often that troops in tiles with foxholes very rarely actually position themselves in the actual foxholes, but rather in the open ground around them. That seems to be especially the case if troops are not in foxhole tiles at the beginning of the game, so if troops move into foxholes later (be they dug by enemy or friend), they won't go into them.

I believe that was true as well for CMBN and CMFI, but not to that extent.

Has anyone else noticed that?

This happens to me from time to time, and an easy way to fix it is to just simply "face" command your men in a different direction. This is obviously easier to do in set-up since they don't take there time repositioning. I am not exactly sure why this happens but I would imagine the tac AI thinks that the foxhole is less safe than wherever it places them in correspondence to which direction they are facing. This is particularly true I have noticed if you have foxholes placed right next to buildings, they like to "stack" up on the side of them in certain situations rather than use the fox hole.

[Holman]

Things get messed up when there are more troops in the action space than there are actual foxholes. A single foxhole space holds a team, not a squad. They tend to sort themselves out when there's not a crowding problem, but it's best to split squads when working with foxholes.

I suspect (I don't know) that this is also an area where What-You-See is not necessarily What-You-Get. A soldier visually positioned next to a foxhole might still be getting the benefit of it. My impression is that they just have to be touching it, not "in" it.

Does someone know more?

[Rokko]

All my observations refer to teams in foxholes, not to whole squads. I tend to split all my squads when they're in danger of getting shot at.

And the face command does not help with this issue, at least not reliably or consistently, at least I have not yet observed it correcting this issue.

[emccabe]

I explained what worked for me I will make a tutorial vidoe

[H1nd]

I do agree that the foxholes are quite broken especialy when compared to the trenches wich can be placed in any terrain and you can trust them to do their purpose. Same cannot be said about the foxholes. Tac AI does not prioritize the foxholes over everything else. I was going to put up a thread specifically pointing out these observations with screenshots for each individual case. Unfortunately I have not been able to do that yet due to RL.

[H1nd]

Maybe broken is too strong word. I would identify two major problem of wich one is probably very well known and is generaly regarded as "engine limitation"

1) Foxholes near walls:

2) foxholes in slopes and especialy at the top edge:

and a third more of a cosmetic issue:

Now the first one I think is pretty well known and it can be managed and marginalized by good map design and innovative aproaches to defence planning.

The second issue is however far more worse since it makes the best position to place your defences practically useless if you are expecting indirect fire. It doesnt help much agains direct fire HE either. Placing infantry positions on reverse slope is one of the best methods to protect them against direct fire and in this context the trenches do the job much much better with the added benefit of carving the terrain mesh a bit and ergo adding up to the protection of the terrain.

Third is mainly a cosmetic problem all tho it also pretty much negate the whole idea of fortifying ditches. Trenches work briliantly with shallow and deeper ditches but the foxholes.. not so very well.

In general trenches allow the player to get more out of the terrain profile and are in general much more reliable. There is also a nasty thing associated to the trenches that came along RT. In CMBN you could modify the alignment of a single trench block using other trench blocks in deployment and editor. You could then remove the other block and the first one would remain in it's changed alignment. However now in RT the trenches realing to the default direction if you remove the adjacent trench pieces. Very frustrating as it forces the player to use two trench pieces for every position when in CMBN you could get away with just one. Unless ofc the default direction happens to be correct like is the case in these test pictures.

[H1nd]

Another issue related to the both types of fortifications and tac-ai position prioritization:

-Foxholes and trenches cannot placed next to buildings because similarly to the case with hedges and walls the troops clump to the side of the building wihtout any regard for the fortification next to them. To me these issues seem purely solvable trough tac-ai action square position prioritization. AI has to favour one over the another and I can't see why the current prioritizations would be any better to the one I'm proposing. Now I ain't presuming that it would be simple and easy techwise because I can't say that I know much about programming. Therefore there is most definitely some tech issues here wich I cannot see.

[Rokko]

I've noticed all of these as well, but I find the issue of troops not using foxholes on a plain more worrying

[H1nd]

I think i have seen that as well but i could not reproduce it on purpose. It could be only 1m elevation variation wich can be hard to detect some times but it could also be something else

[Freyberg]

The face command usually works. Otherwise, giving a hunt command to the foxhole makes them take up positions too.

[MikeyD]

You've got foxholes, you've got walls, and you've got ridgelines all on the same action square. Which is supposed to take precedence? Whichever the AI pick there will be complaints about it not prioritizing the other. If the men stick to foxholes in those circumstances LOS/LOF drops to zero.

[H1nd]

MikeyD I strongly disagree. LOS might turn to grey but that does not mean no los. Foxholes should take priority because they are placed there on purpose byt the player! If they are not there then nothing will change from hte way they act now. If you want your men to lie down on line on the ridge or move behind the wall like they do now, you dont place the foxhole there! It is very simple logic.

Also how can you "hunt" your men to foxholes in deployment phase. You dont. When is the most likely time for enemy arty to strike? Right after first 30 seconds of the first turn. If you troops are hunting to their foxholes they are dead before they can settle themselves in.

And yes yes it has been said many times that face command help the situation but these are cases where it does not or if it does it is's outright stupid: On the wall case it will help if you have your men facing the opposite direction.

[batteran]

I suspect that "splitting team" is the key for "normal" foxholes.

Even if you don't split them, the game engine consider your squad a as "group of teams" together.

But if you move your "group of teams" to an area, each individual team, even not splitted, will issue an individual movement and placement. Near to the other. So not exactly in the foxholes.

After all, it's how it's intended to work: when a entire squad move ou place, all teams will not move "packed" but in a close distance to each others.

so, splitting is the key for fitting all that meat in the correct holes ^^

[H1nd]

I suspect that "splitting team" is the key for "normal" foxholes.

Even if you don't split them, the game engine consider your squad a as "group of teams" together.

But if you move your "group of teams" to an area, each individual team, even not splitted, will issue an individual movement and placement. Near to the other. So not exactly in the foxholes.

After all, it's how it's intended to work: when a entire squad move ou place, all teams will not move "packed" but in a close distance to each others.

so, splitting is the key for fitting all that meat in the correct holes ^^

Did you even look at the pictures.

[H1nd]

I say it once again: These are about problems that come when the ___squads are splitted____ and _____face command_____ cannot reliably or sensibly solve the problems.

[Londoner]

Wish that were my only problem with foxholes. In our current game hind - would you believe I have a couple of mg42s that have not discharged a single round due to the the gunner constantly "moving". Have tried facing and moving/redeploying them in the foxhole to no avail, I can't even area fire with these teams!

[H1nd]

Aye, Was wondering why there was so little fire coming from some of your mg nests.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Is the gunner crawling around constantly? Moving the team away one action spot and then back should clear that up. If doing that results in it happening repeatedly then you may have found a reproducible example. If so PM me so that you can send me the save game file along with passwords (you may want to wait until the game is over).

[Londoner]

That's the one - most frustrating. Will ping you over the file on game end.