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Armorvs.Gun Penetration Table GER/RUS


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Hi,

Vanir Ausf B clever table... ;).

However just to restate the usual... the standard work on this subject, used by Charles or was last time he report on the subject is

World War II Ballistics : Armor and Gunnery by Lorrin Bird and Robert Livingston.

So a search that gives up tables there from is what you are really after.

All the best,

Kip.

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It's good for a quick and dirty check when you don't want to take the time to do the calculations by hand. But like I said, there are limitations. It does not separate the turret armor from the mantlet, and it ignores the lower hull entirely. Also, for some strange reason the ballistic K factor is often incorrect, as is the FHA penetration for Soviet rounds. So I always double check the numbers in the advanced options against WWII Ballistics. Thankfully, the values are all user adjustable so you can just input whatever value you want and it will use it (I'm pretty sure it uses Bird and Livingston's formulas.

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Not sure if I agree with their values. Regardless it won't be very helpful in the game considering Because they downgrade German tanks and upgrade Russian tanks compared to the values in game.

At the risk of feeding a troll, the obvious question arises: do you have information which would prove both assertions? Do you have information which would prove the assertions wrong (if true)? Or, at least, any kind of information which would be able to cast doubt on the in-game armor?

FWIW, supposedly late war German armor suffered from brittleness, due to Allied bombing of the specialized quenching facilities needed to create the proper steel characteristics in early-war German armor.

As for Soviet armor, this is the first I've heard that BFC has it too strong. I -think- the behind armor spalling of Soviet armor is higher than other nationalities. This is done due to the extremely high Brinell ratings of Soviet armor tested during and after the war.

Ken

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At the risk of feeding a troll, the obvious question arises: do you have information which would prove both assertions? Do you have information which would prove the assertions wrong (if true)? Or, at least, any kind of information which would be able to cast doubt on the in-game armor?

FWIW, supposedly late war German armor suffered from brittleness, due to Allied bombing of the specialized quenching facilities needed to create the proper steel characteristics in early-war German armor.

As for Soviet armor, this is the first I've heard that BFC has it too strong. I -think- the behind armor spalling of Soviet armor is higher than other nationalities. This is done due to the extremely high Brinell ratings of Soviet armor tested during and after the war.

Ken

The information I have is all the tests I have done in the scenario editor with Panthers, King Tigers, JS2s , T34s and ISU 122's and the values I have seen in other tank games over the part 35 years. The outcomes bear no resemblance to the calculator. In particular the 122mm gun in game is much less powerful in game than it was in the calculator. Also I was getting some ridiculous results for the 88mm L71. That seems to be fixed now, I'm not sure if it was my browser or the website that was having the issue. I don't have time to recheck everything I looked at yesterday but I was getting some very bizarre results.

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The outcomes bear no resemblance to the calculator. In particular the 122mm gun in game is much less powerful in game than it was in the calculator.

What 122mm-armed vehicle are you using to test, and what are you testing against that gives differing results than the calculator? You may have discovered a vehicle in the game that uses uncapped AP, which I was not sure existed.

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What 122mm-armed vehicle are you using to test, and what are you testing against that gives differing results than the calculator? You may have discovered a vehicle in the game that uses uncapped AP, which I was not sure existed.

The results I got previously were the 122mm AP penetrating Tiger II and Panther, both Turret and Hull at all angles. What was even more bizarre was the 88mm L71 was showing as less powerful than the 75mm L70. However tonight they are giving the expected results.

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Keep in mind that most "AP" rounds in the game are not actually AP. German AP is APCBC while Soviet AP is usually (but not always) APBC. There are sometimes huge differences in penetration between these types of ammunition. Soviet 122mm AP can only penetrate unflawed Panther glacis plate at spec thickness out to a few hundred meters, but 122mm APBC will penetrate to 1500+ meters. Some Soviet tanks and assault guns have AP, some have APBC, but unfortunately the game doesn't tell you which has what.

As for the King Tiger, are you saying that your in-game tests show the 122mm penetrating the front upper hull? That would be surprising. The ballistics calculator says that should impossible. The KT armor would have to be of very low quality.

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No my in game tests have always been as expected. It was the calculator that was giving me some strange results. I used it again a couple days later though and it appeared to be giving me similar results to in game. No idea why I was getting such strange results before.

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No my in game tests have always been as expected. It was the calculator that was giving me some strange results. I used it again a couple days later though and it appeared to be giving me similar results to in game. No idea why I was getting such strange results before.

In the last scenario of RT,my KT's turret(even the mantlet)often get penetrated beyond 900m by Js2 tanks. I have 8 KTs and 11 panthers,5 KTs and 4 panthers had been killed at 1000m range ,only destroyed 2 JS2s(the opponet have 5 JS2s ).

In CMBB ,Russian 122mm gun can penetrate 136mm armor at 1000m,so I think there's something wrong with the armor or the gun's data.

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The penetration of Soviet cannon is definitely higher in CMRT than CMBB. I don't know for sure, but I think all the CMx2 games use WW II Ballistics as a basis, which if true would mean the Soviet 122mm cannon penetrates 158mm of RHA at 1000 meters when using AP ammunition and 162mm when using APBC.

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Key

Chart assumes target is in the center with the front at 0°

Red: Areas where penetration is likely to occur

Orange: Areas where penetration can occur but is unlikely

Green: Areas where penetration will not occur

Yellow: Areas where the projectile may shatter and fail to penetrate

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The penetration of Soviet cannon is definitely higher in CMRT than CMBB. I don't know for sure, but I think all the CMx2 games use WW II Ballistics as a basis, which if true would mean the Soviet 122mm cannon penetrates 158mm of RHA at 1000 meters when using AP ammunition and 162mm when using APBC.

But Rexford's figure still can't explain why KT's mantlet even got penetrated at 900m-1000m .I think KT's mantlet is some kind of reinforced mantlet just like Tiger's.

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But Rexford's figure still can't explain why KT's mantlet even got penetrated at 900m-1000m .I think KT's mantlet is some kind of reinforced mantlet just like Tiger's.

In your previous post you didn't say it was the mantlet, you said "front turret", so that's what I went off of. Unlike the Tiger I, the KT's mantlet only covers a relatively small portion of the front turret area.

KT_213_Turret_Front.jpg

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