Test range: The Maxim generates the similar firepower per minute like the heavy MG42

[Vanir Ausf B]

Oh hoo hoo!

[Kauz]

There seems to be a problem with Kauz and effect.

balderdash...

[Sailor Malan2]

Having read this thread, I am still at a loss about the point the original post was trying to make. I think that the poster wants to suggest that equal firing time with a higher cyclic rate should give more kills in a target rich environment. This is certainly what the discussion assumes, and no contradiction was produced. What he actually said was "The Maxim generates the same firepower per minute like the heavy MG42". I am tempted to say "yes, and...?" Other than he assumption that 'firepower' is synonymous with 'kills' (which it isn't), I am not at all surprised.

JasonC has produced arguments as bullet accuracy etc with which I have no complaints. But I always find an examination of history educational.

- Maxim derived designs (e.g. Vickers) were kept in production until 1968 (more than 20 years after the MG42 could be freely available/copied)

- Slower rate of fire weapons persisted long after all nations could have replaced them (in fact still do)

- whilst some militaries can be a bit dense sometimes, not all of them are stupid all the time.

Thus there has to be at least a possibility that, in the HMG role, Maxim derived designs have certain attractions, and the MG42 is not some sort of uber death ray.

Just my random thoughts

[Pete Wenman]

There seems to be a problem with Kauz and effect.

Now that's just damn funny - well played sir !

P

[Kauz]

....

- Maxim derived designs (e.g. Vickers) were kept in production until 1968 (more than 20 years after the MG42 could be freely available/copied)

....

The MG42 and its copies and derivates like the MG3 are produced and established in a lot of countries up to today.....the Maxim not....

[womble]

...I always find an examination of history educational.

Indeed. Helps if your examination is accurate though...

- Maxim derived designs (e.g. Vickers) were kept in production until 1968 (more than 20 years after the MG42 could be freely available/copied)

Unfortunately, this assertion is a little misleading. While the MG42 itself ceased production in '45 with the end of the Thousand Year Reich, its successors remain in production and service to this day. I don't believe any modern militaries field water-jacketed MMGs these days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_MG3

Not that this has any bearing on Kauz's misconceptions of how MGs produce their battlefield effects; it just invalidates the "Nobody uses MG42 any more so how good could it have been?" argument you were trying to introduce.

[Sixxkiller]

I would like to point out to the OP that even with this uber weapon, the Germans still lost the war. That being said, ROF has very little to do with kill ratios. It's why we in the US Army have an economy of fire doctrine.

A few things off the top of my head come to mind.

#1 Anyone holding the trigger down to establish the rof you are dreaming of should have been taken out and used to run across minefields because that's how useful they were as MG operators

#2. Using such uber ROF would mean the barrel would be useless after a few minutes and changing barrels in the midst of a close assault would be just the kind of thing you wouldnt want for your ubermgtruppen.

#3. Your ROF argument would hold more merit if the unlucky guys running across this fantastic kill zone were on stilts. Now we will have to probably close assault Charles and Phils pillbox to get them to code into the game the LOS calculations necessary to accomplish this. You could probably shoot down a few biplanes though.

#4. Again let me point out that your uber German MG squads would be the envy of all had they been able to accomplish this kill ratio. I can think of no memoirs of a MG42 operator who had these thousand of kills.

Anyway, you most likely have never fired a MG before if you think these were much more than what they were, a good reliable suppression option that had it's fair share of kills but didnt have the success you have made it out to having.

[76mm]

...it just invalidates the "Nobody uses MG42 any more so how good could it have been?" argument you were trying to introduce.

But that wasn't his argument, he does not say that no one uses MG42 anymore, but that they kept using maxim-type guns long after they could have switched to MG42 derivatives if they wanted to.

[Kauz]

For people who want to get an idea of the specific results of the Maxims and HMG42 of my last iteration:

Here you see the rounds fired in each round of every Maxim. Keep in mind that the rounds fired of one C100 in a round can be the rounds fired of the other C100 gun....i just took a look what a random c100 gun fired...entered it in the list and then looked at the other c100 gun and entered it in the remaining entry.

The same for the both c300. The "left" and "right" MG are correct, because they were single on their position.

Maxim behaviour:

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3625/btyflqr8_jpg.htm

Detailled description of the result and the battle development:

- One Maxim at 100 meters is down at the end of round 8 and had still 394 MG/rifle rounds left and so it took out 71 men while using 811 MG/rifle rounds in about 7 minutes firefight.

-The second and last Maxim at the distance of 100meters is down at the beginning of round 9 and had 503 rounds left....so it took out 72 men while using 702 MG/rifle rounds in about 7 minutes firefight

-Left Maxim is empty at the end of round 11 and it took out 105 men while using 1190 MG/rifle rounds in about 10 minutes firefight. It gets the order to hide and a small fire arc to reduce the chance to kill additional people with other weapons.

-One Maxim at the distance of 300 meter stole/shared a 225 round belt from his comrade MG at the middle/end of round 12, while his comrade run out of ammo then at the same time. This out of ammo MG took out 107 men in 11 minutes firefight.

- The right maxim runs out of ammo at the middle/ end of round 13 (trys to reload a 10 round belt ;-) ). It took out 117 men while using 1180 MG/rifle rounds in 12,5 minutes of firefight. It gets the order to hide and a small fire arc to reduce the chance to kill additional people with other weapons.

-The last Maxim (it is at 300 meters) is also out of ammo at the middle of round 14. It took out 137 men in about 13,5 minutes fire fight.

-So the two Maxims at 300 meters distances took out together 244 men with together 2380 MG/rifle rounds in about 13 minutes firefight.

-I did a cease-fire to end the round.

Results:

291 men OK, 370 killed, 239 wounded

own casualties are extreme low because the AI did not gave specific orders to fire and suppress my MG and only tried to run over the bridge. Would the AI give only 1 our 2 groups a specific order to fire on one of my MG i would have been supressed and killed quite fast. :

24 ok, 3 killed, 11 wounded

______________________________________________________

MG42 behaviour:

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3625/utkljo8l_jpg.htm

Detailled description of the result and the battle development:

- One MG42 at 100 meter finally got killed at the end of round 10 and still had 1074 MG/rifle rounds left. So it took out 99 men while using 1436 MG/rifle rounds in about 9 minutes fire-fight.

- The second and last MG42 at the distance of 100 meters is down at the end of round 11 and had about 585 rounds left....so it took out 134 men while using 1925 MG/rifle rounds in about 10 minutes firefight.

- The game ended at the end of round 15 because the enemy surrendered. The German MG42 has double ammo than the cheaper Maxim unit so it can fire for longer time.

- Left MG42 had 450 rounds left. So it took out 138men while using 2060 MG/rifle rounds in 13 minutes firefight.

- Right MG42 had 575 rounds left. So it took out 164men while using 1935 MG/rifle rounds in about 14 minutes firefight.

- One MG42 at about 300 meter distance had 839 rounds left. So it took out 128men while using 1671 MG/rifle rounds in about 14 Minutes firefight.

- The other MG42 at about 300 meter distance had 945 rounds left. So it took out 83men while using 1565 MG/rifle rounds in about 14 Minutes firefight

Results:

154 men OK, 524 killed, 222 wounded

own casualties are extreme low because the AI did not gave specific orders to fire and suppress my MG and only tried to run over the bridge. Would the AI give only 1 our 2 groups a specific order to fire on one of my MG i would have been supressed and killed quite fast. :

27 ok, 4 killed, 11 wounded

Conclusion and further Analyse:

The HMG42 has about double ammo than the Maxims, so it can fire longer.

We have to take a look how many rounds got fired and in what time to achieve the same casualties like the Maxims.

At the end of their round 12 the MG42´s had taken out the same amount of enemy (killed+wounded) like the Maxim did till the end of their game. Because in round 13 and 14 the Maxims only spend a small additional ammount of fired rounds it is convinient to say that MG42 and Maxims produced the same ammount of casualties in the same time.

The Maxims achieved these casualties while fireing 6263 rounds to take out the same amount of enemy like the MG42 did.

The MG42s used in that time 8728 rounds.

Conclusion: This result shows that MG42 only sprayed about 39% more rounds in the same time and/but achieved only the same casualties.

My sugesstions:

1. implement the horizontal SWING movement while fireing a burst!!!

...To dispense the bullets on a bigger area. This was done in real life with the heavy machine guns in case of shorter and medium ranges and multiple targets/more dense enemy formation

2. implement longer bursts (not only 3 to maximum 10 round bursts).

While light machine guna (Bipod) could NOT do that sucessfully the heavy machine guns were supposed to do that (example: 25 rounds)

Together with the SWING movement the HMG behaviour will be more correct and efficient. It will hit more and supress more.

(3. Longer bursts will establish especially on longer distances too but without a swing movement...and especially after the range is estimated right. )

btw.: before some people want to tell me that the advantage of the MG42 is not making casualties but supression, i have you to tell that:

A) That is mostly crap. The amount of supression is proportional to the ability/probability to produce casualties.

Even in case you were right and the MG42 firing is more noise than effect, i have to tell you that i could NOT recognized ANY plus in supression in relation to the Maxim. They both did the same suppression work.

[Kauz]

I would like to point out to the OP that even with this uber weapon, the Germans still lost the war. ....

Despite the point that the russian had several times more men and material the germans lost "only" 2,7 million soldiers in combat at the eastern front.

While the russians lost 8,9 million soldiers in combat. That makes a K/D of 3,3.

The americans got less casualties mainly for two reasons:

1. they did not assault into german lines like the russians did. In russian doctrine (no matter if "tsar"-era or "soviet"-era) the soldiers are canon-fodder

2. the american always tried to use their overwhelming air-force bombardments before they even try to advance with infantry. A tactic they perfectionated till our days

[Oddball_E8]

The MG42 and its copies and derivates like the MG3 are produced and established in a lot of countries up to today.....the Maxim not....

Well yes, but not that many use the MG3 compared to other designs out there.

And sure, plenty of other designs borrowed from the MG42(and 34), but that's not what we are talking about, now is it?

We are talking about the rate of fire of the MG42 supposedly making it superior to something with a lower rate of fire.

And most modern military machineguns have a lower rate of fire (with the MG3 being the glaring exception here).

So if the MG42 was so great BECAUSE of its high rate of fire (and not because it had great interior mechanics), then why is it that most modern militaries use machineguns with lower rates of fire?

[Fūrinkazan]

Hi,

I can understand that some people may be disappointed by hmgs, but they are much better than they were in first version of the game.

I did a firepower test : just area fire and count the bullets after 1 mn of fire.

- at 100 m

hmg 42 = 250 hmg34 =228 lmg 42 = 144 lmg 34 = 126 dpm = 93 maxim = 187 sg43 = 153

- at 300 m

hmg 42 = 136 hmg34 =111 lmg 42 = 087 lmg 34 = 076 dpm = 47 maxim = 100 sg43 = 100

- at 500 m

hmg 42 = 092 hmg34 = 077 lmg 42 = 050 lmg 34 = 050 dpm = 44 maxim = 78 sg43 = 59/75

- at 1000 m

hmg42 = 83 hmg34 = 42 maxim = 57 sg43 = 40

- at 1500 m

hmg42 = 58 hmg34 = 42 maxim = 54

at 2000 m

hmg42 = 40 hmg34 = 39

I let people take conclusion on those tests made in game. The firepower can vary a little because some random has been introduced, but it gives a good idea.

i just wonder just one thing. would it be more logical to shoot more bullets at very long range to have a chance to hit the target (1000 m +) If the procedure for lmgs seems correct to me, i think the firepower of hmgs is maybe decreasing too fast. At long range, there is not much difference between hmg34/42 and maxim. I don't know if it's realistic or not. Maybe more variations in the length of bursts at long range would be good. At short range (under 800 m ) short bursts 5/7 bullets like lmgs, and at long range maybe more. or let the player have a role in it. With target light = short bursts, and target = longer bursts, depending on the hmg.

Now, in CMBN this was frustrating, i saw troops moving in the open under the fire of hmgs without much problem. Now it's no more the case. I just feel that some improvement can be done at long range. If some people have the rate of fire used in real life at 1000 , 1500 2000 m for hmgs we can make a comparison with what we have in game and see if there is really something wrong.

BFC have changed and improved things to make a more realistic game every time they could, but only for good argumented reasons.

implementing swing of the gun is certainly time consuming and i think they could find and faster solution if there is a problem.

we can see that hmgs have a rate of fire of about 50 rpm at 1500 m. the only question is : is this correct and conform to reality ?

regards

[freeman2344]

I just ran a test under similarly unrealistic circumstances (bunch of russians charging across open field and then through a bottleneck) with both an HMG42 and Maxim HMG with maximum stats in a fortified, elevated position and "Scenario Author Test Mode" to exclude any spotting limitations.

The results: 73 Maxim kills, 113 MG42 kills, both tests concluded after 10 minutes.

The Maxim does indeed fire more bursts, albeit shorter ones, but the MG42 makes up for this with increased accuracy. This is the result to be expected IMO and the MG42 does seem to be simulated as the "more potent" weapon in this game. I don't see a problem here.

[poesel]

The MG42 and its copies and derivates like the MG3 are produced and established in a lot of countries up to today.....the Maxim not....

The main difference between the MG42 and the MG3 is a softer spring which nearly halves the ROF of fire. Else it is very much the same gun. We had some parts which had what suspiciously looked like overground swastikas.

And they told us that even during WWII many gunners were sawing some turns off the spring to decrease(!) ROF. I doubt their reasoning had anything to do with the benefit of the enemies.

[fatehunter]

Downmodeling of the german weapons?

This makes me wonder, however, how far this delusion of yours stretches?

Do you consider the MP40 a vastly superior weapon compared to the Thompson, Sten and PPSh41 as well?

Do you think the Kar98k was a better weapon that the Springfield or the Enfield?

Do you say that the Garand or SVT40 was no match for the G43?

Because if you do, there is obviously something wrong with you...

Gents,

The OP put up a statement, right or wrong. There is no need to conduct Ad hominem attacks. He is participating in the conversation. There is a clear mob mentality here as many of you are ****-storming all over him. This is unnecessary.

[Kauz]

----

we can see that hmgs have a rate of fire of about 50 rpm at 1500 m. the only question is : is this correct and conform to reality ?

regards

First you estimate the right distance:

This you can do by watching the impacts in the soil or using "B-rounds" or far much more established "tracer rounds". You can use your normal view, the optics of the gun, the binoculars of the leader or sometimes by additional range finding optics.

The estimation of the range you will finally do by using shorter bursts.

Most time (usually defense) you already did this ....

After the range finding....:

The heavy Machine guns fired then "long bursts" in all occasions.

-In extreme distances and/or indirect fire they could use the "Tiefenfeuerautomat" which dispense the rounds of a longer burst intentionally in a vertical way. So you use longer bursts ...or the "Tiefenfeuerautomat" is useless.

- On higher distances you use 25-50 round bursts to increase the hit probability in direct fire on a specific point.

- On shorter up to medium ranges you use longer bursts to dispense them while swinging the gun in a horizontal way ...this way you can increase the hit probability (and this wise the supression too) and make more good use of the fired rounds.

OF COURSE this you probable more do in case the enemy is more dense in this area and not only a single soldier.

light machine guns can NOT provide longer bursts....They are getting to inaccurate with every round they fired in contrary to the heavy machine guns. So the light machine guns are forced to reduce their bursts in lenghts of 3-7 rounds.

The heavy machine guns are able and supposed to use their high accuracy and stability at even longest bursts. So they were ordered to fire 25 round bursts.

In this context it is plausible what i once read (translated into english):

"Refering to Colonel Butz, the "machine-gun-pope" of the Reichswehr and Wehrmacht, the MG34 with bipod (LMG) brang 120-150 rounds per minute accurate into target, with tripod (HMG ) 300-350.

Even more quick the MG42 fired: With bipod (LMG)150-180 rounds , on tripod (HMG) 400-450. The US BAR (LMG) only could reach lean 60-80 rounds. Promptly it had proved in the field, that the extreme high rate of fire not only was a big advantage for anti-aircraft purposes. The infantry got enabled to engage even for only short time appearing ground-targets with a lot of rounds. The hit probabilty increased. Crucially relevant is not only the numbres of hits, but that a high as possible numbre of hits in a short time as possible takes place..."

[Kauz]

@poesel71 and Oddball_E8:

The main difference between the MG42 and the MG3 is a softer spring which nearly halves the ROF of fire. Else it is very much the same gun. We had some parts which had what suspiciously looked like overground swastikas.

And they told us that even during WWII many gunners were sawing some turns off the spring to decrease(!) ROF. I doubt their reasoning had anything to do with the benefit of the enemies.

- The MG42 has officially a ROF of 1500.

- The Yugoslawian copy of the MG42 called M53 a ROF of 1500

- The Bundeswehr MG3 is derivate of the MG42 and has a ROF of 1200.

(delivered and produced at: Italy, Spain, Pakistan, Greece, Iran, Sudan and Turkey.

- some countries did not stay at the 1200...and reduced to 850 round per minute for example Italy and Austria and sometimes called it in another way

Conlusion:

- I do not know if the numbres of countries which use MG42 or MG3 derivates is complete.

But it seems that it is wide spread.

-Another point is that the MG3 is actually the most spread derivate of the MG42 and has a ROF of 1200 (not much less than the MG42).

- The third thing is that i read that bolt and lock are most time changeable to allow increasing the ROF again back to roots.

May be the reduction of the ROF from 1500 to 1200 (or even 850) is more for peace time issues, because barrels and ammo costs money.

- The last thing is ... nobody reduced the MG42 ROF down to 500-600 rpm. .....that says a lot

[Fizou]

Hi,

I can understand that some people may be disappointed by hmgs, but they are much better than they were in first version of the game.

This is what I take with me also. So happy this was changed. But there might still be some room for tweeks for the HMG overall.

Gents,

The OP put up a statement, right or wrong. There is no need to conduct Ad hominem attacks. He is participating in the conversation. There is a clear mob mentality here as many of you are ****-storming all over him. This is unnecessary.

Fatehunter, I believe Oddball was referring to Stein.. ehr I mean Volksgrenadier. Who is a obviously just out to glorify every axis weaponsystem.

I think Kauz is conducting a civilizes discussion. He might have some points too.

[Oddball_E8]

Gents,

The OP put up a statement, right or wrong. There is no need to conduct Ad hominem attacks. He is participating in the conversation. There is a clear mob mentality here as many of you are ****-storming all over him. This is unnecessary.

You do realize that post wasn't in reply to the OP right?

It was to someone claiming that the game habitually downmodels the german weapons.

Which is BS and deserves an ad hominem attack...

[Fūrinkazan]

Kauz

I agree on the fact that lmgs can only fire short bursts, that's what i've been reading on german manual. i guess it's more or less the same for every army, from BAR to Bren lmg34 or dpm.

If you simulate german hmgs with 25 bullets bursts, how would you simulate all the others ? Should they all fire long 25 bursts or why not more for some ?

It's a difficult thing to simulate + you must take count the ammunitions.

When the game came out, i never went out of ammo with my hmgs. Now it happens often.

you point 300 to 450 rpm for german hmgs. Is it for all distance ?

If you compare to the game with let's say about 60 rpm at 1500 m this means that in game hmg shoot 6 x less bullets than you say. More that what they shoot at 100 m.

there is no precision on the time they use this rate of fire. is it 300rpm for 10 seconds, 1 mn ? or 1 brutal 25 burst then 1 mn pause then another ?

[Oddball_E8]

@poesel71 and Oddball_E8:

- The MG42 has officially a ROF of 1500.

- The Yugoslawian copy of the MG42 called M53 a ROF of 1500

- The Bundeswehr MG3 is derivate of the MG42 and has a ROF of 1200.

(delivered and produced at: Italy, Spain, Pakistan, Greece, Iran, Sudan and Turkey.

- some countries did not stay at the 1200...and reduced to 850 round per minute for example Italy and Austria and sometimes called it in another way

Conlusion:

- I do not know if the numbres of countries which use MG42 or MG3 derivates is complete.

But it seems that it is wide spread.

-Another point is that the MG3 is actually the most spread derivate of the MG42 and has a ROF of 1200 (not much less than the MG42).

- The third thing is that i read that bolt and lock are most time changeable to allow increasing the ROF again back to roots.

May be the reduction of the ROF from 1500 to 1200 (or even 850) is more for peace time issues, because barrels and ammo costs money.

- The last thing is ... nobody reduced the MG42 ROF down to 500-600 rpm. .....that says a lot

-The use of the MG3 is about as wide spread as the use of the FN MAG... and then there are a whole bunch of other machineguns in use out there (and ones that are no longer in use). So it's not as common as you make it out to be.

-The yugoslavians no longer have the MG42 version. They are all using the PKM now.

-The fact remains that the vast majority of Machineguns in use in modern times are of a lower cyclic rate than the MG42.

So my conclusion must be that higher rate of fire does not mean it's better than other weapons.

ps. actually alot of the german MG42's during the ware were also reduced to around 800-900 rpm.

(listen at around 3:30

[Kauz]

Kauz

I agree on the fact that lmgs can only fire short bursts, that's what i've been reading on german manual. i guess it's more or less the same for every army, from BAR to Bren lmg34 or dpm....

Yes ...they all (LMG) fire short bursts...like i once said in another thread (after the 5-7 th round of the burst the LMG gets inaccurate/ineffective especially on medium distances.

An idea of possible accuracy of LMG you get in the following post:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1528322&postcount=5

....

If you simulate german hmgs with 25 bullets bursts, how would you simulate all the others ? Should they all fire long 25 bursts or why not more for some ?....

For the start:

All HMG should do these long bursts ( 25 rounds) :

The difference between the german and allies is simply that the german only need 30-50% of the time to do that...after that he search new aim and fires again.

...

It's a difficult thing to simulate + you must take count the ammunitions.

When the game came out, i never went out of ammo with my hmgs. Now it happens often.

That is right. For that case i always dream of giving the units orders how to attack an enemy or defend an area. (With intensive fire, own decission, or saving ammo option).

Sadly such a thing is only possible to pre-decide in scenario editor for all units.

As long that this is not implemented you just should assume the maximum effective firepower.

And to handle that ammo guzzling you have to work with fire arcs and ammo dumps (ammo resupply).

you point 300 to 450 rpm for german hmgs. Is it for all distance ?

Well i do not know at the moment...

But i know that the HMG is more accurate and because of its stability is has no problems to hold this accuracy no matter how long the burst is.

And i know that effective range in direct fire of the HMG is often called with 1000-1200 meters while it is only the half at the LMG.

May be it would be even more ....but you have to keep in mind that the traveling time is high at such distances and the spotting ability decreases also exponentially.

....

If you compare to the game with let's say about 60 rpm at 1500 m this means that in game hmg shoot 6 x less bullets than you say. More that what they shoot at 100 m.

there is no precision on the time they use this rate of fire. is it 300rpm for 10 seconds, 1 mn ? or 1 brutal 25 burst then 1 mn pause then another ?...

The point again is that you have to spot the enemies to enjoy the called 300-450 rpm.

Did you see ever see an enemy unit in this game constantly being visible at

800-1000 meters for a whole minute? So you should not be scared that he guzzles ammo at high distances.

Only option to get use of this firepower could be area fire-order.

In this case i would appreaciate also that i could tell him how to do ...(intensive, own decission, saving ammo).

Till this is not established you should work with the "aim short" -order for area fire.

Then the MG would only spray about 100 rounds in the first 15 seconds and you saved ammo. (it would mean about every 3 seconds a 1 second burst in the first 15 seconds)

For the start it is just important for me that the HMG is capable of firing 25 round bursts (in case he has the right distance.)

In the game you could mix short bursts (3-7 rounds) like they now are with additionally long bursts (with ~25 rounds )

[Skwabie]

...save ammo...

actually i've been using some way to remedy the ammo expense problem.

if the HMG guys are mounted and i envision a heavy firefight, acquire all the ammo from the vehicle... the german HT carries 1850 rounds of 7.92mm so divide it 1000/850 for the 2 teams.

target light. although not much it does save some.

target briefly.

alternate area fire. team 1 area fire for a minute, team 2 stands watch; next minute switch roles. thus ammo level is kept even between teams.

however the perpetual downside is when there're multiple squads on map all with troops in contact it inevitably becomes click fest-ish, MG guys are easy but with platoons of infantry with teams split...

[RockinHarry]

What 25 round bursts? The tripod HMG34/42 employs 50 round bursts as main tactical firing unit! Too bad, I can´t scan the appropiate sections from my german technical and tactual manuals, but here again a section from "Tactical and Technical Trends, No. 42, January 13, 1944.", which refers to a german source, coinciding with what´s in my manual:

FIRING DATA, GERMAN MG-42

A German source states that the MG-42 has a close and dense cone of fire which results in greatly improved observation. The cone of fire has a slight "creep" hence this machine gun can be held on the target for only a short time compared with the slower firing machine guns. This German source states that as a result of the increase in the rate of fire from 420 rpm with the MG-08, to 900 rpm with the MG-34 and to 1,500* rpm with the MG-42, an increase in the percentage of hits in proportion to the length of burst should be obtained. However, preliminary trials in this country have not produced a rate of fire above 1,200 rpm. It would appear, in any case, that a high degree of skill and training are required to obtain the best results from the MG-42. Previous references to this gun will be found in Tactical and Technical Trends No. 32, p. 37; No. 31, p. 37; No. 21, p. 25; No. 20, p. 28. The following points to be observed when firing the MG-42 are taken from the German source referred to above:

* * *

a. When Used As a Light Machine Gun

Trials under battle conditions have shown that the best results are obtained from bursts of 5 to 7 rounds, as it is not possible to keep the gun on the target for a longer period.

The destruction of the target is therefore accomplished with bursts of 5 to 7 rounds, the point of aim being continually checked. It is of course important that re-aiming should be carried out rapidly, so that the bursts follow one another in quick succession.

Under battle conditions the firer can get off approximately 22 bursts in a minute, or approximately 154 rounds.

Comparative trials under the same conditions with the MG-34 showed that the best results in this case were obtained with 15 bursts in the minute, each of 7 to 10 rounds, i.e. approximately 150 rounds.

It will be seen from this that the ammunition expenditure of the MG-42 is a little higher than with the MG-34, but to balance this, the results on the target with the MG-42 are increased up to approximately 40%.

b. When Used As a Medium Machine Gun

Long periods of sustained fire must definitely be avoided, as they do not produce the best results and lead to an unwarranted expenditure of ammunition. The reasons for this being, first, if the extraordinarily dense cone of fire of the MG-42 is on the target, then this should be destroyed in approximately 50 rounds; secondly, if the cone of fire is not on the target then the gun must be re-aimed, if necessary with adjustments to the sight. In order to assess the position of the cone of fire, fire must not be opened until an observation has been obtained.

For instance, if with a range of 2,000 yards the time of flight is 4.7 seconds, then a useful observation cannot be obtained in less than six seconds. Sustained fire for a period of six seconds, however, is the equivalent of an ammunition expenditure of 150 rounds, whereas an observation of the position of the cone of fire or of the effects on the target, could have been obtained with 50 rounds.

Trials under battle conditions on the same lines as those carried out in action with the MG-34 have shown that, in general, when using the MG-42 as a medium machine gun, bursts of 50 rounds with repeated checking of the point of aim give the best results.

In this way, not only will the best results on the target be achieved, but the expenditure of ammunition will be kept within limits which will be very little in excess of expenditure with the earlier MGs.

source: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt09/mg42-firing-data.html

[RockinHarry]

almost exactly the same text from:

Intelligence Bulletin, Vol. II, No. 9, May 1944

can be searched and found here:

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/

Page 86

Section VII. GERMAN VIEWS ON USE OF THE MG 42

1. INTRODUCTION

The cyclic rate of fire of the German MG 42 is 25

rounds per second. Most of the disadvantages, as well

as the advantages, of the gun can be attributed to this

single characteristic. As a result of the high rate of

fire, the gun has a marked tendency to "throw off," so

that its fire stays on the target for a much briefer time

than does that of the MG 34, which can fire only 15

rounds per second.

This section summarizes the German Army views as

to the length of bursts to be used against hostile forces

when the MG 42 is employed as a light machine gun

or as a heavy machine gun.

2. AS A LIGHT MACHINE GUN

The Germans are instructed to fire bursts of from

5 to 7 rounds when they employ the MG 42 as a light

machine gun, since an operator cannot hold his gun on

the target for a longer period. The gun must be re-

aimed after each burst. To enable the bursts to fall in

as rapid a succession as possible, the Germans try to

cut the aiming time to a minimum.

Under battle conditions the MG 42 can fire about 22

bursts per minute—that is, about 154 rounds. Under

the same conditions, the MG 34 is capable only of about

15 bursts per minute, at a rate of 7 to 10 rounds per

burst, totalling about 150 rounds. Thus the MG 42,

used as a light machine gun, requires a slightly higher

ammunition expenditure. Although the Germans be*

lieve that when the weapon is properly employed, the

compactness and density of its fire pattern justify the

higher expenditure, recent German Army orders have

increasingly stressed the need of withholding machine-

gun fire until the best possible effect is assured. Al*

though the German defensive trick of "lying in wait"

has been adopted partly to gain the tactical advantage

of surprise, it also fits in with recent German efforts to

conserve, not only ammunition, but all other materiel

manufactured by the hard-pressed industries of the

Reich and the occupied countries.

3. AS A HEAVY MACHINE GUN

German soldiers are instructed that when the MG 42

is employed as a heavy machine gun, sustained fire

must be avoided at all costs. The German Army has

ruled that the results of sustained fire are disappoint*

ing and that the expenditure of ammunition involved

is "intolerable."

This, and the following German observations, do not

apply, however, to fire placed on large targets at short

range.

The Germans believe that if the compact beaten zone

of the MG 42 is on the target, a burst of 50 rounds

should be effective. If the burst is not on the target,

the Germans are instructed to re-aim the gun and, if

necessary, to adjust the sights.

The enemy considers it wrong to fire long bursts be*

fore fire for adjustment has been undertaken and

observed. At a range of 2,000 yards, for example,' the

time of flight is 4.7 seconds. This means that the point

of impact cannot satisfactorily be observed under 6 sec*

onds. Six seconds of sustained fire results in an expen*

diture of 150 rounds. The German Army tells its

soldiers that if they will wait to observe the point of

impact in firing for adjustment, a burst of 50 rounds

should then prove adequate.

While U. S. soldiers have expressed a healthly respect

for the MG 42's high rate of fire, they agree that the

gun's dispersion is very small—so small in fact, that

they have frequently been able to make successful

dashes out of the field of fire.