Bil v C3K AAR – Germans v SMGs in Woods

[Bil Hardenberger]

Fighting in close terrain with extremely limited lines of sight can be challenging and very frustrating. Especially when taking on an enemy armed with SMGs. My goal with this little AAR is to discuss a few principles, namely defending against a better armed opponent in very close terrain, and performing a Delay operation.

Though this little game, which was really just a test against c3k as he had stated that the Russian SMG formations could not be beaten in the woods.

Gents,

After months of exhaustive East Front action, I thought I'd save your men some blood and grief. Yeah. Surprising, I know.

Important point: If you're the Germans, try not to fight the Soviets in the forests.

Carry on.

I called him on it and this is the result. It only went a few turns before we abandoned it, but I think it can be used as a handy instructional tool. I hope you find it informative.

METT-T:

• Mission:

Delay the enemy in zone and cause as many casualties as possible while trading space for time. Basically make it uncomfortable as possible for my opponent, who I know is very aggressive. I hope to use that against him.

• Enemy:

The enemy force is made up of one complete SMG Company, plus one extra SMG Platoon in support. That adds up to 127 enemy soldiers, all equipped with SMGs.

• Terrain:

The map is a cropped down version of the map Elvis and I played on in the BETA AAR. When cropping it I concentrated on ensuring that most of the playable area was wooded so we would be forced to stay true to the test.

Looking at the map, it really has two main avenues of advance. I expect Ken to break his force into two parts and attempt to spread my defending force thin... however, I plan on concentrating on one side, with only a split squad on the other as an OP/LP. The goal is to concentrate on one enemy force, annihilate it and then switch to the other, a mini-Tannenberg if you will.

• Troops:

I was bringing two Fusilier Platoons to the party, my force make up was:

88 soldiers, only 20 of which have SMGs, there are a total of 6 LMGs, and 4 HMGs (2 per platoon). The rest are armed with single shot rifles.

• Time:

Not that it matters, but we had one hour allotted to fight it out.

The First Minute:

Delay. A delay trades space for time, inflicts maximum damage on the enemy, and avoids decisive engagement. FM 7-20 The Infantry. Battalion

Though Delay Operations are normally a Battalion level task I contend it can be performed just fine at the Company and Platoon level and that is how I approached this little fight.

On my left (from 2d Platoon) I have one squad that has been split into two teams. Their role is to not engage the enemy, but to identify any enemy movement, paying attention to numbers of contacts.

On my right 1st Platoon is on the line, all units except the HMGs which are back covering the open areas between the wood masses. Their goal is to engage the enemy as he appears, then fall back in stages, attempting to kill more than I lose.

2d Platoon (minus the one squad on the left) is setup as my maneuver element, as soon as I identify an enemy flank they will go into action and attempt to flank the enemy advance.

My HMGs are all back in support, they are deployed in depth to cover all of the open areas (amber outlines).

Action: Not a lot of action this first turn, but the setup areas were next to each other so first turn action was possible. Ken moved what looks like a recon team forward, and my center team (1st platoon) took down the lead man.

Next: I intend to immediately leap frog this team back next turn. I expect Ken will place massive area fire on this team’s location and attempt to overrun it now that he knows where it is. Pulling back will give me a nice kill sack for Ken to move in to.

Note in the following image the saw-toothed pattern of my deployed infantry teams. the idea is for the forward teams to break contact as required and re-position behind the second line.. when the team in contact (amber circle) pulls back a nice kill sack will be formed on its previous position with up to four teams overwatching the area.

Stay tuned. More to come.

[General Lee Irked]

Nice. I am looking forward to learning. What sort of distances are we looking at between the saw toothed infanty?

[c3k]

? Abandoned it? I've been waiting for you to post the next turn!

I assumed you'd surrendered.

I have not read beyond your opening sentence. Shall we continue? My men have been asking for this.

Ken

[Bil Hardenberger]

Heh, Ken, my last turn has been posted for over a month now. I figured real life took over for you on this one.

Bil

[db_zero]

This should be interesting. Playing h2h on both side I find the SMG wielding troops deadly in close quarters. I also find the Paras in Market Garden to be very deadly due to their SMG's.

One of my regular h2h opponents who is very good mentioned there may be a need for house rules to limit the SMG troops in some h2h battles and QB's.

I'm sorta leaning on a doctrine to NOT automatically dismount my troops from Hannomags when facing Russian infantry as the HTs gives protection from the SMGs and the lack bazookas or PIATs for Russian infantry. In the Western Front and Italy I tend to dismount them quickly due to the threat from infantry AT weapons. The Russian AT rifles seem to kill just 1 or 2 passengers when it penetrates.

The SMGs do eat through ammo quickly though. I also like to break contact quickly when I encounter the SMG wielding devils and let them advance into my fire zones. Mortars in direct fire mode and MGs are effective at killing or suppressing the SMG toting gangsters.

[Fizou]

Nice of you Bil! I was hoping to see what happened and hopefully you guys do a few more turns.. or maybe Ken is chicken??

And Bil.. did you release your tactical unit icons as a separate CMRT mod?

[Bil Hardenberger]

Nice of you Bil! I was hoping to see what happened and hopefully you guys do a few more turns.. or maybe Ken is chicken??

And Bil.. did you release your tactical unit icons as a separate CMRT mod?

Ken in no chicken.

Just for you here is a link to my floating icons for CMRT. One word of warning.. these work well in war-movie mode, but the Russian icons will need some color adjustment if you intend to use them in normal mode.

Bil

[Fizou]

Thanks a bunch Bil

No disrespect to c3k, only a friendly taunt to keep the blood flowing in those woods

[ScoutPL]

Perhaps I should post a separate thread for this question but here goes. I have been struggling with how to determine LOS in wooded areas. Is it blocked by the art (i.e. individual trees and bushes)? Or is it a standard distance based on the color of the tile (weeds, grass, heavy woods, etc). It seems to vary widely depending on adjacent terrain. For example, a team in woods can see across a weeds or brush tile to the next woods tile but not necessarily through the woods tile on the other side or a woods tile directly adjacent.

I have tried Bils jigsaw pattern as well but found kill sacks were often incomplete due to LOS restrictions of the individual teams. I suspect he will have issues with that from the above screenshot. Then to complete the "trap" I have tried to move teams forward onto the enemy units flank, even just a square or two, only to have them get spotted and wasted during movement.

Perhaps it would be a little easier to set up these ambushes with a clearer understanding of LOS in deep woods.

[womble]

I have been struggling with how to determine LOS in wooded areas. Is it blocked by the art (i.e. individual trees and bushes)? Or is it a standard distance based on the color of the tile (weeds, grass, heavy woods, etc).

It's affected by both. The tile type is a generic "how many metres of this terrain does the LOS line cross", and the "art" is 1 for 1. Foliage is very variable in its effects. Not many people have a good handle on exactly what it's going to do in any situation; I know I don't.

It seems to vary widely depending on adjacent terrain.

It's worth considering that the terrain type the unit is in is worth roughly half of any terrain type where the LOS crosses a whole tile, since the "average" distance from eyeball to edge of tile you're in is only 4m, whereas a tile crossed orthoganally adds 8m-worth of that tile's concealment/cover.

Perhaps it would be a little easier to set up these ambushes with a clearer understanding of LOS in deep woods.

Almost certainly, but it's often an intractable solution and you just have to walk the Targeting tool over the terrain to find out where the holes are in your vision and simply do the best you can.

[sburke]

I love it, they both got lost in the woods for the past month. The true problem is being able to tell what day it is in those dark trackless primeval forests.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Perhaps I should post a separate thread for this question but here goes. I have been struggling with how to determine LOS in wooded areas. Is it blocked by the art (i.e. individual trees and bushes)? Or is it a standard distance based on the color of the tile (weeds, grass, heavy woods, etc). It seems to vary widely depending on adjacent terrain. For example, a team in woods can see across a weeds or brush tile to the next woods tile but not necessarily through the woods tile on the other side or a woods tile directly adjacent.

Units ignore individual trees within a certain radius of their position for outgoing LOS/LOF (they do block incoming LOS/LOF). The small individual bushes that come with the woods tile are, AFAIK, eye candy only.

[womble]

Units ignore individual trees within a certain radius of their position for outgoing LOS/LOF (they do block incoming LOS/LOF).

Is that a change in RT? In MG 2.12 I constantly find crew-served units having their LOS blocked by trees in the same AS (because the TacAI sets the MG up directly behind the trunk).

[Bil Hardenberger]

Nice. I am looking forward to learning. What sort of distances are we looking at between the saw toothed infanty?

10 to 15 meters, the far left team is 30 meters off. He is covering the open area between the woods and has pretty deep LOS through the edge of the woods.

I'll try to answer some of the other questions tonight.

Bil

[Bil Hardenberger]

My forward team immediately displaced and ran for its second position, and not a moment too soon.

Ken area fired its previous location for practically the entire turn... burned a lot of ammo. I expect an assault next turn.. he might think he has them suppressed enough to risk an assault. There were no sightings this turn, but several sound contacts, as can be seen in the image.

Note how my line has morphed, it is primed to counter any assault by Ken's SMGers into that kill sack... I am slightly nervous about the Platoon HQ being so far forward so will be displacing them next turn.

Just in case the above image made you forget the terrain we are in... here is the view from the ground, positioned behind the team that repositioned this turn. That will leave my right most squad out on a limb, but we'll see how it develops.

[Bil Hardenberger]

On cue Ken advanced into my kill sack and proceeded to suffer at least seven casualties throughout the turn... I suspect there were three or four more that I didn't see as there were a lot of grenades going off.

I suffered two casualties... the action is so close and the LOS is so tight that the two sides were often firing at point blank range.

This composite image shows all the identified casualties along with the time-stamps of when they occurred.

Down in the weeds, towards the end of he turn Ken's troops were running for the rear... a few more dropped getting shot in the back.

However, there was one tough enemy team, surrounded by enemy dead that was returning fire and grenades as time ran out...

[GhostRider3/3]

Nice tactic.. .very nice indeed.

[db_zero]

Nice work...but what would occur if a defender with SMGs is hiding in the woods or urban terrain and the Germans were the ones advancing?

Without smoke, covering fire from HMGs, tanks or some other type of support weapons to kill or suppress the SMG troopers I've discovered that even 1 or 2 SMGs can really chop up an advancing enemy in short order.

In 1 h2h game my opponent didn't see my SMG squad hiding and saw 2 of his squads eviscerated in seconds.

Kens aggressiveness cost him dearly, but what if he was a less aggressive person and waited for you to advance and engage at close range where he would have most likely got off the first shots or the Germans are mandated to take a position without support weapons.

I've seen from other threads that artillery is nerfed to take onto account the fact that men don't spread out like they would do in real life. I suspect that the SMGs are NOT nerfed and due to the fact that your pixel troops don't spread out like they would in real life or use tactical formations like they would in RL, SMGs are brutally effective.

[sburke]

Nice work...but what would occur if a defender with SMGs is hiding in the woods or urban terrain and the Germans were the ones advancing?

Without smoke, covering fire from HMGs, tanks or some other type of support weapons to kill or suppress the SMG troopers I've discovered that even 1 or 2 SMGs can really chop up an advancing enemy in short order.

In 1 h2h game my opponent didn't see my SMG squad hiding and saw 2 of his squads eviscerated in seconds.

Kens aggressiveness cost him dearly, but what if he was a less aggressive person and waited for you to advance and engage at close range where he would have most likely got off the first shots or the Germans are mandated to take a position without support weapons.

I think the premise was that c3k essentially challenged anyone to stand against Russian SMG units in woods. I don't think Bil would have accepted a challenge to attack into them, but who knows maybe that will be the next one they do. I would expect that partly depends on how this turns out. c3k paid for that attack, but not dearly enough unless he keeps doing the same thing. I know what I'd be thinking to do right now if I was him and this line wouldn't hold.

[Bil Hardenberger]

I think the premise was that c3k essentially challenged anyone to stand against Russian SMG units in woods. I don't think Bil would have accepted a challenge to attack into them, but who knows maybe that will be the next one they do. I would expect that partly depends on how this turns out.

I'd attack into them versus SMG troops too Steve... or rather I'd tiptoe around them.. that's a form of attack right?

c3k paid for that attack, but not dearly enough unless he keeps doing the same thing. I know what I'd be thinking to do right now if I was him and this line wouldn't hold.

Exactly right.. and I know what I'd do if I were in his shoes as well... and it was the one thing I was afraid of happening. However after a turn like that I suspect he will lick his wounds for a bit before coming again. That should give me time to redeploy... I do not expect this tactic will work until the end of the game so I have to stay creative and flexible.

Bil

[apoll]

Thanks for this Bil. I will study this and the lessons you draw out. I smile a great fan of your informative website, and, as a beginner to this game, need all the help I can get.

Regards,

Apoll

[A Canadian Cat]

I know what I'd be thinking to do right now if I was him...

I know what I'd do if I were in his shoes as well...

Care to share? I am at a loss since Ken did just what I would have done.

[Andrew H.]

This should be interesting. Playing h2h on both side I find the SMG wielding troops deadly in close quarters. I also find the Paras in Market Garden to be very deadly due to their SMG's.

One of my regular h2h opponents who is very good mentioned there may be a need for house rules to limit the SMG troops in some h2h battles and QB's.

[snip]

Limiting SMG troops is no fun. :'(

Although there is the issue in RT that, IIRC, the German SMG troops were accidentally left out of the QB purchase screen.

[sburke]

Care to share? I am at a loss since Ken did just what I would have done.

LOL hey I would have done what Ken did initially too. I would not repeat that behavior though. What's the joke - Doc it hurts when I do this. Dr: Then don't do that.

PM'd as you saw already.

[snarre]

you find german smg troops in armor options, they are in sturm division