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Myth of Invincibility Scenario.


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The above figures from Dunn are very general. You also have the excellent tables prepared by John Salt:

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/ww2pen3.pdf

Salt's work shows why getting actual WW2 performance figures is so frustrating. There are actually a very limited number of real empirical tests and the results are a bit all over the map.

However, most results show the 85mm gun in the T34 penetrating up to 100-138mm of armor plate at a 0 degree angle at 500 meters. The 130-138mm figures are achieved when firing the best AP rounds. Note this is roughly twice as high as the 75mm gun in the Sherman. This is partly a function of the caliber, but also because the 85mm had a higher muzzle velocity.

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Playing this h2h. I'm Ivan. Basically started out as a sniping duel with tanks that didn't go well for me. Not surprised. In just about all my h2h games as Ivan I find it unproductive to get into a long range shooting duel with Fritz.

Like the quote from the movie We Were Soldiers I found that as Ivan you want to get in close to Fritz, grab him by the belt and don't let go.

I discovered at close range King Tigers, Tigers and Panthers are quite vulnerable to T-34, even from the front. Yes some shells bounced off the thick hide of the Tigers-even at 80-150 meters, but others got through.

The SU-76s is another story, but their smoke ability is nice.

Can't say how the game will go as there are still German cats out there.

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I am just finishing this battle in HtoH play and we played each other from both sides.

First if the players are both good I would say the chances of winning from the German side is about 0%.

The terrain favors the Russians, the scoring favors the Russians, the equipment and men favor the Russians , mostly because of the numerical advantage.

Panthers are not hard to take out with the 85's. You just need the numbers, or first shots or shots from the side.

The only thing the Germans have going for them is that King Tiger. Which Is pretty invincable to 85's from the front ( I only did a test run of about 200 shots in total but never have seen anything other than a damaged gun and yes that was even at close ranges of 100 meters.)

The only suggestion I have is get German Armor on that left flank hill and make it hard for the Russians.)

Against the AI, it is easy to win as the Germans (again taking the left hill is the key, vs the AI it becomes a Turkey shoot once there and they start to expose their flanks.

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Interesting...I killed the King Tiger before it could do anything. I rushed it with T-34's. One shot bounced off the front, but another T-34 shot it and hit it on the left front turret and knocked it out. I would guess we're talking under 100 meters. Just got lucky I guess. I imagine the King Tiger is worth buku points if you kill it.

I just started using Fraps again and downloaded Microsoft Movie Maker and saved it to video.

The Panther that was its wingman got destroyed by a side shot..

A pair of Tigers I also showed up. One killed 2 T-34's but was taken out by a frontal shot by a T-34 at spitting distance. The other one has been hit, a 85's hit the gun manlet and forced the Tiger to pop smoke and retreat. Its also been hit on the side by shells, but he's still lurking.

Still not over though. Opponent is very good and uses tanks well. Still has Panthers, assault guns and AT guns, not to mention a lurking Tiger (hopefully the optics are damaged) and infantry with panzerfausts and shreiks.

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I too am playing this H2H as the Russians. I have all my objectives and am rolling up the final resistance. The issue is that Royal Tiger. I have given it one hell of a pounding and cannot take it out - grrrr.

My opponent had two tigers and the Royal tiger plus at least one JPzIV on his right flank. I was having trouble dealing with then from long range so what I did was just blast HE at them from multiple directions and multiple tanks to the point that they could see nothing. I kept up this insane level of fire for many minutes while other forces worked at picking apart the defense. I must have immobilized everyone up there because no one ever came out. Once my guys ran out of HE the 76s were close enough to smoke the hill. The trouble is every time there is a gap in the smoke that dang Royal Tiger KOs one of my tanks. It is the only thing left alive up there and I am now taking advantage of the last of the smoke to get as many T34s up close and personal as possible. It will be a wild finish.

I'll try to remember to get a shot of the front of that Royal Tiger when the smoke clears.

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Right now my opponents flak wagon (whatever it is - Flak on a truck?) is giving me fits and I haven't been able to get off a decent shot at it. But yes, the King Tiger is a beast. Still playing. Seem to be pretty heavy losses on both sides. (at least from what I can see of his). I'm Russian and I'm trying to advance on the hill on the German left. He holds the buildings there (or what is left of them at this point - do you still get the points if I knock them all down? :-) ).

Good battle. Very satisfying, so kudos to the designer.

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Right now my opponents flak wagon (whatever it is - Flak on a truck?) is giving me fits and I haven't been able to get off a decent shot at it. But yes, the King Tiger is a beast. Still playing. Seem to be pretty heavy losses on both sides. (at least from what I can see of his). I'm Russian and I'm trying to advance on the hill on the German left. He holds the buildings there (or what is left of them at this point - do you still get the points if I knock them all down? :-) ).

Good battle. Very satisfying, so kudos to the designer.

Probably a Mobelwagen with quad 20mms. I lost a SU-76 to it and it made a lot of noise on one of my T-34's before I killed it with 2 shots.

Deadly against soft targets and SU-76's. Can also damage the optics on tanks.

A couple of turns after I destroyed it my air support strafed German targets. Don't know what they hit, but I heard some nice metallic plinking sounds.

I had a couple with 37mms in h2h Market Garden battles. They are absolutely deadly when pinking enemy infantry at distance. It didn't take long for my opponents to steer clear of them.

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Well, I did the proper thing and killed the King Tiger with an ass shot.

Only required one round from that direction :)

One shot one kill eh? Easier said than done though. Right now I have been unable to even get a side hit. Now that it appears to be immobilized that should change. Mind you I have to fight my way through Faust and Shrek equipped infantry to get into position. That thing could have caused all kinds of havoc by then. It will be an interesting end game.

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I'm Russian and I'm trying to advance on the hill on the German left. He holds the buildings there (or what is left of them at this point - do you still get the points if I knock them all down? :-) ).

Hee hee yeah my first assault on those buildings ended badly - really badly for me. I felt like knocking them down too. I am pretty sure you are clear to do so since the briefing says it is an occupy objective not a preserve objective.

Good battle. Very satisfying, so kudos to the designer.

Agreed - I think this would be pretty hard as the Germans in head to head play though but loads of fun.

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Well, as I mentioned, I played both sides H2H.

So I thought that king Tiger seemed pretty tough and I was looking for a way to turn the battle for the Germans, so I tried to duel with it against a group of 6 T34/85's at about 1100 meters. Figuring my odds were ok as to nothing bad happening.

Managed to kill 2 tanks and had received about 20 hits by that point. But the dreaded malfuction gun occured, which ended any thoughts of it going on to glory.

I am starting to think the odds of gun damage increase the father away the enemy is. Since the AI always aim center mass.

There is more rounds hitting in the area of the gun as the range increases.

Just a concept, I have not tested it out.

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I can't believe the complaints concerning T-34/85's versus Panthers. Why, just have a gander at my fine panzers after the battle...

Panthercomposite_zpsdd2679c8.jpg

I had all four ready & waiting at about 1200m when the unruly Cossack mob arrived - the very first 85mm AP round gun-damaged one Panther. It went downhill from there pretty quickly.

Iron Cross (and battle-saver) goes to these fellows...

CMRedThunder2014-07-2810-34-05-89_zps59d9bfb1.png

There's nothing like ripping up the enemy using their own gear.

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Assault on the potato sheds on the Russian right was going ok, until up pops a &*%$#*& King Tiger. I think I've hit it about 5 times from pretty close range and all it did was back up below the rise. (that after I lost about 5 T-34s trying to get closer). Grrrr! Still haven't got the flak wagon to die yet. Maybe I can knock down the building it's hiding behind.

I have to say this one is a fun challenge.

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Ouch. Nasty - I lost a lot of my tanks there early with just Panthers behind that rise.

I finally KO'ed that Royal Tiger - after 26 hits (estimate based on hit decals and counting the last few turns). Well the last three were holes so any one of them could have been the death blow.

I had five T34 85s come up to hull down positions within seconds of each other to the side of that beast and lost three tanks before my guys "won" the duel.

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  • 2 years later...

Hello

 I'm playing "myth of invincibility" (I'm really enjoying it, thanks to the author) and I was wondering how the AA guns works :

- Is there a  way for them to work more efficiently ?

- Any kind of special C2 to spot enemy planes ?

- Where is the best place to put them and do their job ? Inside / outside a forest ? Top of a hill ? Why ?

- How the LOS of an AA gun works ?

There are not too much scenarios with this weapons offering covering fire from planes ( I remember one in FI) and I was wondering how to use this weapons correctly against aircrafts

Thanks for help and answers!

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In this particular battle I left them where they appeared in the "Set-up Zone". I don't bury them in woods as it cuts down on their LOS, but a small stand of trees is fine. C2 doesn't affect their performance enemy against aircraft from what I've seen, although someone could put me right on that if I'm wrong. 

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@Warts 'n' all's advice is sound.  If you want them to perform in an AAA role then keeping them out of the LOF of the enemy but with a view of the sky.  So, be careful of putting them next to an obstruction like a building or a steep hill.  They don't need to be in the open but if they are on the edge of a tree line on a slope they probably will not have a good view the sky on the otherside of the hill.

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