Status update on "Black Sea"

[Skwabie]

love it. last roars of the gas turbines too probably..

[Mastiff]

But Ive watched Black Hawk down like 3 times this weekend and I was all pumped up and now......

Anyone have a copy of Titanic and alot of beer ?

yea and you see how that turned right?

[Combatintman]

Which means hat factions like the Poles should be pretty easy for BF to do. Just with an official Polish TOE.They,the Romanians and the Hunfgarians (I forgot about them ) would be likely to have a strong interest in a war in Ukraine - just look at the Polish attitude to the on-going real world crisis.

And pretty much all BF would have to do then is slightly different graphics for uniform differences Since the policy is to add new forces in modules and many of the Western NATO forces willlargely be based on the already existing CMSF armies (following neccessary updating work for the new engine and any real world changes) the introducion of these forces should not be that hard, particularly if the work is done over multiple modules.

Given the real world situation there coud well be considerable interest in gaming in the Eastern European area and a rennaissance of interest in the moderns period which has largely been in the doldrums for the last couple of decades since the end of the Cold War.

Although we all hope that the game will not be ovetaken by real world events. Maybe we should get Moscow and Kiev to play the game to show them what a losing proposition a war like this would be, probab;y for both sides.

Sorry for a grumpy post but ...

It is harder than you think - I did a fair whack of the work on the TO&Es and equipment for the Brit Module and it took a huge chunk of my time to do the research (and I was in a privileged position to do so). The level of detail required to generate a TO&Es for a Battlefront game is immense - I still have the research folder and it is a 4.28 MB file (and these are mostly text documents with no graphics).

Why does it need to be right ...

Search back through CMSF threads about ammo loadouts on British vehicles ... how many times was that queried?

How many people offered opinions on how wrong the loadouts were?

How many of those people were able to back their opinions up with fact?

Reference your comment about necessary work for real World changes ... the British module was put together using the force structure in the mid noughties - look at TO&Es now - totally different.

Bear in mind that for every vehicle (and there are plenty of new Brit ones now) you not only have to consider the art work but also:

How many crew

Ranks of the crew

Weapons carried by the crew

Ammunition loadout (every nature)

etc etc

Of course you should be pleased by that because it means that Battlefront are committed to getting the details right but - it is more than a reskin.

[black_prince]

Are there any plans to include air or artillery deployed sub-munitions in Black Sea?

[John Kettler]

Here's some great footage from the recent moves by Ukraine in Mariupol. Of particular note is the sprightly handling of the BMP-2. The claim was made repeatedly that tanks were used, but I saw nothing but BMP-2s, fire trucks and a few cars. There are some great shots for building and tree grogs, too. Link deliberately broken.

http://rt.(usual)/news/157884-shooting-mariupol-eastern-ukraine/

Regards,

John Kettler

[bobo]

While I happily have multiple RT, BN, and FI games ongoing I will probably sit this one out. Too close to real life events for me. I had a similar problem with CMSF when we were losing folks in Iraq every day and even now don't fire it up because of the in progress civil war.

I am sure it will be a good game and successful and fun to play but maybe in a few years for me.

Bobo

[The Teacher]

I'm still in hope of this being a ripper of a game with lots of good fun playing all parties.

Now that my GF is crying and sobbing over Titanic and I've been forced to get alot more beer, I have another question.

Will the airstrikes be called in by on map teams or operate like Red Thunders aircraft ?

cheers

Stephen

[sfhand]

We typically don't plan for a specific release date. We're currently estimating late summer as a window for release.

Chris, thanks for this info. It is nice to know it is most likely coming in the not-to-distant future.

[Rokossovski]

Hopefully the single story entry bug will not make an appearance . . .

[Skwabie]

Will the airstrikes be called in by on map teams or operate like Red Thunders aircraft ?

I think the aircraft in Red thunder is specific to the ww2 setting. the use in BN/FI was inherited from SF and appeared 'too modern'. nothing will be too modern in 2017 again... just my own thought + what was written on the foras tho.

[A Canadian Cat]

The claim was made repeatedly that tanks were used, but I saw nothing but BMP-2s, fire trucks and a few cars.

Yeah, most people don't have a clue what the difference between a tank and an APC is (or a fire truck for that matter:-). Most people cannot tell the difference between incoming and outgoing artillery fire either. And the list goes on.

[A Canadian Cat]

In addition to US, Ukranian and Russian I would like to see (eventually)

British

French

German

Dutch

Belgian

Polish

Italian

Romanian

Baltic States (Latvia, Estonia. Lithuania)

Belarus

Moldova

Trans Dniester (Pro Russian Paramilitary types)

This would allow for a great variety of scenarios in game. In terms of terrain we might include Eastern European, Russian and perhaps even German building options. And,naturally, for a final battle in Moscow, the Kremlin!

I would like to see Canadians too. Yeah I know small potatoes but we did field quite a few combat troops in Afghanistan for an extended period. That and with our PM's support for the current Kiev government there would be many here that would expect us to be involved (plenty here who would not of course too).

[Ashez]

I am curious how Battlefront is going to deal with information on the most advanced Russian equipment - I don't think it is easily available to public and I am pretty sure Russia military constantly upgrades their systems as much as other powers do.

[ZPB II]

High-ranking moles provide info.

[Ashez]

My two pennies worth:

Initial military forces are:

1. US Army

2. Russian Army

3. Ukrainian Army

"Uncons" are also planned, though I am not sure there will be much (if any) of that in the Base game release.

Steve

Ukrainian Army is unlikely to take any offensive action. It is badly trained and demoralised and often refuses to act against pro-Russian Donezk insurgents.

We have concluded that Belarus would sit it out, though would give covert support to Russia. In fact, part of our storyline's details is they

allow Russian special forces to infiltrate into northern Ukraine (west of Kiev) through Belarus' territory.

NATO would not likely want to start a war with Belarus as it would have it's hands full in the Ukraine. Belarus, on the other hand, wouldn't want to risk Poland and the

Baltic states taking their own form of action for which Russia would be of no help.

No, as I see it Belarus would likely want to stay out of a direct and overt role in the conflict.

Steve

I think Belarus would military support Russia. Baltic states are weak military and they have large Russian minorities - I do not think they would be capable of any offensive action. Polish army is currently logistically incapable of any substantial military action (maybe some special forces or aircraft) outside own borders.

Ukraine is frighteningly close. I am quite sure that Russia will annex at least parts of eastern Ukraine as well. There were already reports of troops in russian uniforms and with russian equipment operating in Donezk.

It is not that simple.

During his recent interview for French TV Putin said there were no Russian troops in Donezk and demanded the proof from those who claim otherwise. I am pretty sure Ukrainians and CIA are trying hard to find and present one but with no success. Everything we have seen so far proved to be fabricated. Recently Ukrainian Euromaidan PR published pictures of Syrian refugees and claimed they were from Donezk (just to show you the scale of misinformation).

Donezk rebels consist of locals that have been trained in Russia for several years as well as mercenaries from Chechnya who recently joined them.

While some of the equipment - often expensive - was surely smuggled through border I believe the majority of combat gear is acquired from Ukrainian troops- some freely given,some stolen and some bought from corrupt soldiers (for example rebels in Sloviansk claim they pay around 2k USD for rpg with 6-7 missiles.)

Also, the annexation will not happen - as it is not in Russia's interest.

In addition to US, Ukranian and Russian I would like to see (eventually)

British

French

German

Dutch

Belgian

Polish

Italian

Romanian

Baltic States (Latvia, Estonia. Lithuania)

Belarus

Moldova

Trans Dniester (Pro Russian Paramilitary types)

France and Germany are unlikely to take any military action against Russia (unless NATO member atatcked) because of economic ties with Russia and lack of support for such action among own people. I do not think they are going to risk economic breakdown and social unrest. Italy -with own set of problems - is even more unlikely to do anything (recently Italy's prime minister even stated that Russia is entitled to care for own interest and that Poland and Baltic States shouldnt be listened as driven by a sheer Rusophobia.)

Britain could participate in such war, but not without heated internal debate - there still a lot of bitterness connected with Iraq and how the UK was maneuvered into war by Blair and Bush.

Thats all about possible major contribution. Paradoxically you forgot about one country that would be likely to support US in such war: Turkey -they have a powerful army and could be willing to exploit Russia's weakness to gain influence on Crimea and Caucasus. During the Crimean crisis they already went as far as threatening Russia.

On the Russia's side Belarus would be more likely than not to join the war (being potentially the next in line). It is not clear what would Serbia do, I think it depends whether it is accepted into EU or not and whether EU still exist in near future.

There is a significant chance China would join the war on Russia's side to prevent US dominance for next decades. They could do this directly or take advantage of US involvement in Europe to completely throw away USA from SE Asia.

Those of you interested in unavailable elsewhere insider details on the nits and grits of the Ukraine Crisis are invited to come to my site

I wouldn't recommend this site as a reliable source of detail on Ukrainian Crisis. In my opinion It is one sided and based entirely on US and Ukrainian media, full of ridiculous statements and straight out hatred. You will not find anything valuable there. To be honest, even for someone knowing ukraine, language and browsing all the independent and social media it is often very hard to deduct the course of events through excessive misinformation on both major sides.Living -probably -thousands miles away, having only distorted and remote idea about the subject and advertising such site here-thats the feat!

[Sgt Joch]

Those of you interested in unavailable elsewhere insider details on the nits and grits of the Ukraine Crisis are invited to come to my site, whose URL is my name, plus the usual. I've written a bunch of posts on the Ukraine Crisis, with more to come. I plan to put something up soonish on the aerial incursions which may cause jaws to drop.

Regards,

John Kettler

Great site John, very entertaining. Is Putin really an Alien?

[Ashez]

The claim was made repeatedly that tanks were used, but I saw nothing but BMP-2s, fire trucks and a few cars.

According to the rebel commander -Igor Strielkov - tanks were used by Ukrainian army yesterday near Sloviansk, one of them was heavily damaged but managed to withdraw.

[Lethaface]

My two pennies worth:

Ukrainian Army is unlikely to take any offensive action. It is badly trained and demoralised and often refuses to act against pro-Russian Donezk insurgents.

I think Belarus would military support Russia. Baltic states are weak military and they have large Russian minorities - I do not think they would be capable of any offensive action. Polish army is currently logistically incapable of any substantial military action (maybe some special forces or aircraft) outside own borders.

It is not that simple.

During his recent interview for French TV Putin said there were no Russian troops in Donezk and demanded the proof from those who claim otherwise. I am pretty sure Ukrainians and CIA are trying hard to find and present one but with no success. Everything we have seen so far proved to be fabricated. Recently Ukrainian Euromaidan PR published pictures of Syrian refugees and claimed they were from Donezk (just to show you the scale of misinformation).

Donezk rebels consist of locals that have been trained in Russia for several years as well as mercenaries from Chechnya who recently joined them.

While some of the equipment - often expensive - was surely smuggled through border I believe the majority of combat gear is acquired from Ukrainian troops- some freely given,some stolen and some bought from corrupt soldiers (for example rebels in Sloviansk claim they pay around 2k USD for rpg with 6-7 missiles.)

Also, the annexation will not happen - as it is not in Russia's interest.

France and Germany are unlikely to take any military action against Russia (unless NATO member atatcked) because of economic ties with Russia and lack of support for such action among own people. I do not think they are going to risk economic breakdown and social unrest. Italy -with own set of problems - is even more unlikely to do anything (recently Italy's prime minister even stated that Russia is entitled to care for own interest and that Poland and Baltic States shouldnt be listened as driven by a sheer Rusophobia.)

Britain could participate in such war, but not without heated internal debate - there still a lot of bitterness connected with Iraq and how the UK was maneuvered into war by Blair and Bush.

Thats all about possible major contribution. Paradoxically you forgot about one country that would be likely to support US in such war: Turkey -they have a powerful army and could be willing to exploit Russia's weakness to gain influence on Crimea and Caucasus. During the Crimean crisis they already went as far as threatening Russia.

On the Russia's side Belarus would be more likely than not to join the war (being potentially the next in line). It is not clear what would Serbia do, I think it depends whether it is accepted into EU or not and whether EU still exist in near future.

There is a significant chance China would join the war on Russia's side to prevent US dominance for next decades. They could do this directly or take advantage of US involvement in Europe to completely throw away USA from SE Asia.

I wouldn't recommend this site as a reliable source of detail on Ukrainian Crisis. In my opinion It is one sided and based entirely on US and Ukrainian media, full of ridiculous statements and straight out hatred. You will not find anything valuable there. To be honest, even for someone knowing ukraine, language and browsing all the independent and social media it is often very hard to deduct the course of events through excessive misinformation on both major sides.Living -probably -thousands miles away, having only distorted and remote idea about the subject and advertising such site here-thats the feat!

Not so sure regarding Germany and France staying out of the war when a full spectrum conventional war erupts in Ukraine (very close) between their ally the US and Russia. Iraq is a whole different ballpark, since Iraq never posed a military threat to any European country (in fact probably only Kuwait). Especially if China would enter the war on Russia's side, all of NATO will be activated join the battle.

I'm pretty sure the EU still exists lol, there is no remote chance of the EU disbanding all together. In fact, I suspect that WWIII would lead to a very fast creation of the United States of Europe. Serbia will be likely want to be neutral, IMO for the wiser. Perhaps some personnel will volunteer to join Russia.

Agree with you regarding Turkey. Their might be regional conflicts in the middle east as well to monetize on the situation.

Im quite 100% sure China will stay out of such a conflict since it will mean WWIII and a destruction of their economy, since NATO will rule the oceans. Going nuclear is not really an option for anyone not willing to destroy the world.

Anyhow, CM:BS is a (luckily) a fictional war so BF.C could decide certain things even if they are not 100% plausible. I would like to see China featured in the game

[LUCASWILLEN05]

My two pennies worth:

Ukrainian Army is unlikely to take any offensive action. It is badly trained and demoralised and often refuses to act against pro-Russian Donezk insurgents.

I think Belarus would military support Russia. Baltic states are weak military and they have large Russian minorities - I do not think they would be capable of any offensive action. Polish army is currently logistically incapable of any substantial military action (maybe some special forces or aircraft) outside own borders.

It is not that simple.

During his recent interview for French TV Putin said there were no Russian troops in Donezk and demanded the proof from those who claim otherwise. I am pretty sure Ukrainians and CIA are trying hard to find and present one but with no success. Everything we have seen so far proved to be fabricated. Recently Ukrainian Euromaidan PR published pictures of Syrian refugees and claimed they were from Donezk (just to show you the scale of misinformation).

Donezk rebels consist of locals that have been trained in Russia for several years as well as mercenaries from Chechnya who recently joined them.

While some of the equipment - often expensive - was surely smuggled through border I believe the majority of combat gear is acquired from Ukrainian troops- some freely given,some stolen and some bought from corrupt soldiers (for example rebels in Sloviansk claim they pay around 2k USD for rpg with 6-7 missiles.)

Also, the annexation will not happen - as it is not in Russia's interest.

France and Germany are unlikely to take any military action against Russia (unless NATO member atatcked) because of economic ties with Russia and lack of support for such action among own people. I do not think they are going to risk economic breakdown and social unrest. Italy -with own set of problems - is even more unlikely to do anything (recently Italy's prime minister even stated that Russia is entitled to care for own interest and that Poland and Baltic States shouldnt be listened as driven by a sheer Rusophobia.)

Britain could participate in such war, but not without heated internal debate - there still a lot of bitterness connected with Iraq and how the UK was maneuvered into war by Blair and Bush.

Thats all about possible major contribution. Paradoxically you forgot about one country that would be likely to support US in such war: Turkey -they have a powerful army and could be willing to exploit Russia's weakness to gain influence on Crimea and Caucasus. During the Crimean crisis they already went as far as threatening Russia.

On the Russia's side Belarus would be more likely than not to join the war (being potentially the next in line). It is not clear what would Serbia do, I think it depends whether it is accepted into EU or not and whether EU still exist in near future.

There is a significant chance China would join the war on Russia's side to prevent US dominance for next decades. They could do this directly or take advantage of US involvement in Europe to completely throw away USA from SE Asia.

I wouldn't recommend this site as a reliable source of detail on Ukrainian Crisis. In my opinion It is one sided and based entirely on US and Ukrainian media, full of ridiculous statements and straight out hatred. You will not find anything valuable there. To be honest, even for someone knowing ukraine, language and browsing all the independent and social media it is often very hard to deduct the course of events through excessive misinformation on both major sides.Living -probably -thousands miles away, having only distorted and remote idea about the subject and advertising such site here-thats the feat!

Without wanting to get overly poliical about this, if we had a situation where Putin attacked a NATO member state during the course of this hypothetical crisis (let'ts say Poland, the Baltic States or Romania who are all NATO members) Article 51 of the Atlantic Treaty would be invoked and NATO would go to war with Russia.

As for world coverage I am afraid Russia Today is a least as biased as any Western media outlet is likely to be and does seem to give a very pro Kremlin slant on things. As they say, truth is often the first casualty in war and the likelihood is nobody is likely to be telling the full truth.

However, this is a wargame not a political debate website and we would like to have as big a force mix as possible to make for interesting scenarios.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

However, this is a wargame not a political debate website and we would like to have as big a force mix as possible to make for interesting scenarios.

/debate :cool:

[Ashez]

As for world coverage I am afraid Russia Today is a least as biased as any Western media outlet is likely to be and does seem to give a very pro Kremlin slant on things.

Certainly.

Anyhow, CM:BS is a (luckily) a fictional war so BF.C could decide certain things even if they are not 100% plausible. I would like to see China featured in the game

Agreed. BF guys already proved their exceptional insight, but I do not think the campaign layout is set in stone by now and some adjustments can be introduced.

One thing worth mentioning about Belarus: After signing Eurasian Economic Union agreement, Belarus' President stated: "We believe the Economic Union will be the foundation for the future of political, military, and humanitarian unity".

I think this is a clear indication that Belarus would not assume a passive stance. And -just to remind you - earlier this year, Belarus -together with Russia - participated in a joint military drill "Zapad 2013" simulating attack on Poland and Baltic States.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Certainly.

Agreed. BF guys already proved their exceptional insight, but I do not think the campaign layout is set in stone by now and some adjustments can be introduced.

One thing worth mentioning about Belarus: After signing Eurasian Economic Union agreement, Belarus' President stated: "We believe the Economic Union will be the foundation for the future of political, military, and humanitarian unity".

I think this is a clear indication that Belarus would not assume a passive stance. And -just to remind you - earlier this year, Belarus -together with Russia - participated in a joint military drill "Zapad 2013" simulating attack on Poland and Baltic States.

I have nothing against having the Belorussian army included as a Russian ally and, in fact would like them to be included as such in a future expansion of the game along with some or all of the other nationalities, in particular the Polish, Baltic States, British, Germans, French and some of the smaller NATO states. This will increase the mix of equipment available, for example the French Leclerc. The Baltic States armies are there for scenarios where those states are invaded by Russia, the Poles and Romanians because they are major NATO nations likeley to bedrawn into this hypothetical conflict.

[Ashez]

I was obviously wrong about the exact date, should be 'September 2013' instead of 'earlier this year'.

[grunt_GI]

So, as I anxiously await this game...along with the CM community, I came across this interesting tidbit about how the Russians waged their Sitzkreig in Crimea and Ukraine:

http://www.naa.mil.lv/~/media/NAA/AZPC/Publikacijas/PP%2002-2014.ashx

Fascinating and insightful read from the Latvians...whoda thunk?

But if anyone thinks the Russians don't have strategic sophistication...think again...this is scary stuff, and you know the Baltic states are gettin' nervous at the hungry Russian bear...I'm not sure if their army tactically is any better than they were against Georgia in 2008, but strategically, they are probably better than our military/industrial complex...at least in their own backyard.

Cheers

[Razgovory]

Hi all, I haven't posted here in a while. I was did own Shock Force, but I'll be dipped if I can find the manual and disk. That was quite a while ago. Still, I'm happy to see a sequel being made. I have a few suggestions, observations etc

Consider a "floating timeline". Time makes fools of us all, so putting an exact date on the war may not be the best way to go. This was a minor problem with Shock Force which took place at an exact date about a year in the future. It quickly became dated and you had expansions that took place in the future age of last year. Instead of having the war take place in 2017 have it take place in x+3 where x is always the current year.

I applaud you for picking Russians as OPFOR this time around. I tried to sell some my friends on Shock Force but weren't interested. One referred to as derisively as "Combat Mission: Squish the Arab", perhaps a bit crude but the US vs Syria is one sided. Add the British, Canadians, Dutch and German and it's not really very fair. Admittedly in the WWII games we know who is going to win. For instance in Normandy after the first week the Germans lost all chance of winning. Perhaps it's a double standard, but I think players would like to think that the stakes are high.

If this is to be WWIII let us make the most of it! Don't be shy about throwing in additional OPFOR countries in. I know you have stated you weren't interested in having Belarus join in, but I ask you reconsider. Perhaps adding in CIS units in modules. Admittedly these units aren't likely to be particularly effective, or even distinctive but having more countries join Russia in the war gets rid of the feeling that Russia is being dog piled on. Further afield some other countries might be fun to throw in the mix such as Iran (who have an interesting mix of equipment) or even North Korea (Good Lord, is that T-34!).

I'd love to see some of former Warsaw Pact countries that are in NATO in the game. Countries like Poland have an interesting mix of Soviet and Western equipment another NATO country that might be interesting is Turkey. A Turkish campaign against say, Iran could be really neat.

I believe the Russians will be introducing a new MBT in the time frame in the game. I don't suspect it'll make an appearance. Figuring out capabilities of current generation equipment is difficult enough. Coming up with the capabilities of equipment that hasn't even been put in use (and may never be put in use) is all but impossible. That's sort of the problem with Chinese equipment. Nobody has any idea what it can do. They've built several newer MBTs but what they actually can do is pretty much unknown. I don't imagine we'll see the Chinese show up either.

Well that's enough rambling for today.

Cheers,

Raz