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Ladder Shooting, Troop Morale and some Questions


TimoS.

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Hello there.

When CMSF and after that CMBN first arrived it was a Dissapointment for me. I couldnt get the Hang for the Game and it didnt feel like CMx1.

After not giving up and playing almost Infantry Only Scenarios or with a few Tanks i really started enyoing the Game and got addicted to CMBN and the Great Market Garden Modul. I played lots of Scenarios for Hours and Hours and its a lot of Fun. Way better than CMx1!!! :)

Now i bought myself the CMFI and CMGL Bundle and its getting even better.

But where should i start with it?

Okay, in CMx1 i had that Feeling that Hull Down Positions and "Armor" worked better. A good Hull Down Position was of Great Value. In CMx2 it feels more like a Gambling and almost every shot seems to be a Penetration. Also the Guns/Tanks seem to have a Hit Percentage of est. 95% on <300m.

In CMx1 there where ladder Shooting. I remembered those Hit% Values on good German Optics where better at greater Ranges, but even a Panther/Tiger had to shoot most of the Time twice at <300m with some Laddershooting to score a Hit.

Wich Game of the Combat Mission Series is wrong? Where has the Laddershooting gone and why does so much Shots have Effects on Tankarmor?

I know that there was Damage to Optics,Radio etc. or Crew got Shaken but the # of Shots that Penetrate seem to be way Higher than in CMx1. Sometimes

the Tankcombat feels more like CM-Shockforce then World War 2. When u compare that to CMx1

If someone can clarify this and give me some hints on Tank Combat? In CMx1 i could look at the Armor Values of my Panther Tank Turret Armor for example and the Penetration Values of a Sherman Gun and position my Panther in Hull down, knowing that Enemy Tank X could not Penetrate it on Distance Y (except Lucky Shots trough Slits or PantherG Wrong Turretmantle, wich was cool Feature imho). I just dont get the Feel for Cmx2 Tank/Atg Combat.

I use Target Arcs and can get into Hull down Positions.

I also want to know how C2 between Infantry and Tanks are shared and how long this will take. Any Tips for that? So that i can give my Tanks the Advantage of spotting enemy ATGs/Tanks earlier to give me an Advantage because of the high Hit-% the First shot seems to be crucial.

Maybe there are some Changes in Moduels for lets say 1941 or 1942? Maybe because of not so good Guns/Optics in that Phase of the War?

Dont get me wrong. Im now a Great Fanboi of the Series and cant imagine getting back to Cmx1. But that Topic stated above is the only thing thats make me pondering.

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Other thing that i wanted to ask if there has been some Teaks between CMBN Market Garden and CMFI? I have Engine Update installed.

Infantry Squads seem to loose Fatigue if they keep shooting and "fighting" even if stationary and they look like retreating easier wich is in some Cases a really good Progression in the Game. Had a nice CMFI Scenario where i was attacking a Town with Fallschirmjägers against British Green Royal Troops and they fought pretty "fluid".

They got broken, did fall back, moved again in my Direction and attacked me from the Side etc. My Fallschirmjägers where falling back under lots of Fire or if they had a Casualty and next Round i could move them back in and attack again. TacAI seems to be smarter now?

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Okay, in CMx1 i had that Feeling that Hull Down Positions and "Armor" worked better. A good Hull Down Position was of Great Value. In CMx2 it feels more like a Gambling and almost every shot seems to be a Penetration. Also the Guns/Tanks seem to have a Hit Percentage of est. 95% on <300m.

In CMx1 there where ladder Shooting. I remembered those Hit% Values on good German Optics where better at greater Ranges, but even a Panther/Tiger had to shoot most of the Time twice at <300m with some Laddershooting to score a Hit.

Wich Game of the Combat Mission Series is wrong? Where has the Laddershooting gone and why does so much Shots have Effects on Tankarmor?

I am not familiar with the term "laddershooting", but I assume you mean bracketing. Hull down positions are presently bugged with regards to spotting, but they are still very good at reducing enemy hit %, cutting first shot hit % in half, roughly. The spotting bug will reportedly be fixed in the next patch.

In CMx1 tank shot accuracy was reduced below the "official" numbers to simulate "combat conditions". This was controversial. In CMx2 tank accuracy is more by-the-book.

Armor and penetration performance in CMx2 is generally similar to CMx1. If you are seeing every shot penetrate you need to try a wider variety of vehicles and situations.

Optics appear to work much differently than in CMx1. Unfortunately they appear to be severely bugged at the moment. Tanks that should spot better at long ranges, such as the Panther and Jagdpanther, spot worse, sometimes much worse. This may be fixed in the next patch along with the hull down spotting issues, but I suspect it won't and will require a second look.

I also want to know how C2 between Infantry and Tanks are shared and how long this will take. Any Tips for that? So that i can give my Tanks the Advantage of spotting enemy ATGs/Tanks earlier to give me an Advantage because of the high Hit-% the First shot seems to be crucial.

Nearby infantry will share C2 info with tanks that are within 3 action spots, the closer the faster.

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Thx for the Info!

Is there any good Site where i can find Penetration Values of the Guns and Diffrent Values of RHA on Side, Upper Hull Lower Hull on Tanks. There had been one Site but it seems to be down. :(

So i can get a better "Feel" for Tank Combat.

What is that Bug you are talking about? Can you go in Detail with it?

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Thx for the Info!

Is there any good Site where i can find Penetration Values of the Guns and Diffrent Values of RHA on Side, Upper Hull Lower Hull on Tanks. There had been one Site but it seems to be down. :(

http://www.tarrif.net/

Click on the "Intelligence" section.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/pencalc/

This is a ballistics calculator that can give you a good general idea for what can penetrate what. There are some caveats. One is that the values they use are in some cases a little different than what CMx2 uses, but the differences are usually not large. Also, it does not differentiate between gun mantlet and front turret armor, which can give misleading results for vehicles in which those two values are much different (Tiger I, ect). But it works well in most cases.

What is that Bug you are talking about? Can you go in Detail with it?

I can go into great detail. But it would be much easier to redirect you to the discussion regarding it. You may want to pour yourself a drink ;)

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=112981

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Great Sites! Thx!

But how to read the Graph? Is the Outer Ring the Position from where the Shot is Incoming and the Taget is standing in the Center of the Ring Facing North? So a Shot from lets say 45° Degrees should Bounce on the Front or Side Armor?

Also read the Topic on that Bug. To bring it down to one Sentence: "You have more Spotting Disadvantage from missing Driver/Radiomen Spotting then the Enemy Tank has with lower Shilouette of yours". Thats right? And what about the diffrent Optics in Tanks/ATGs? You said "its a Black Box"

And another Question: What are the Benefits of unbuttoning Tank Commander?

Edit: Ahh i get it. Battlefront refused to give Information of whats going on under the Hood for that Optics Thing. Nobodys knows, but its there. So what can make me believe that they got the Benefits/Drawbacks of Diffrent Tankoptics in the Game right? Or are the all the same in Terms of Spotting and Gun Precision.

Funny thing, i also had that old CMx1 "Grog" Manual in Mind about Diffrent Optics of Soviet,US and German Tanks that where modelled as the Manual Stated in Cmx1

I want to believe that BFC simulate the Diffrence in Tank Optics with all their Advantage/Disadvantage! As it is right now the Combined Actions of MGs/Mortars/InfantryWeapons feels Great allready!

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But how to read the Graph? Is the Outer Ring the Position from where the Shot is Incoming and the Taget is standing in the Center of the Ring Facing North? So a Shot from lets say 45° Degrees should Bounce on the Front or Side Armor?

Correct.

Also read the Topic on that Bug. To bring it down to one Sentence: "You have more Spotting Disadvantage from missing Driver/Radiomen Spotting then the Enemy Tank has with lower Shilouette of yours".

You can think of it that way, although there is more to it than that.

And what about the diffrent Optics in Tanks/ATGs? You said "its a Black Box"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

And another Question: What are the Benefits of unbuttoning Tank Commander?

He spots better than buttoned tank commanders.

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In CMx1 i could look at the Armor Values of my Panther Tank Turret Armor for example and the Penetration Values of a Sherman Gun and position my Panther in Hull down, knowing that Enemy Tank X could not Penetrate it on Distance Y (except Lucky Shots trough Slits or PantherG Wrong Turretmantle, wich was cool Feature imho). I just dont get the Feel for Cmx2 Tank/Atg Combat.

Try out this mod and you get this feature back in..

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111940

I recommend the XC alternative.

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How is spotting for Infantry working?

Does Recon Platoons have any Bonus in spotting? And how can i get into a good Spot for Spotting Enemy Infantry and ATGs without getting spotted myself? What is Working? Hide?

Manual and Tutorial Mission says i have to put a Spotter into a House and Give him Target Arc and he dont get spotted. In Mission #3 on Conraths Counterattack i try to get a Arty Spotter in Position for 81mm and Wespe Offboard Mortar but when i get into Position with Slow Command and give Target Arc so they dont reveal their Positions due to shooting after 3-4 Minutes a Enemy Mortar is shooting on my Position killing my whole FO Team.

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If you have a short arc, it only means that the unit won't fire and give away its position that way. However, it can be spotted like any other unit.

To avoid being spotted (easily) you need to be a) as far away from enemy as is "practical" to enable one to spot, and B) in as good cover as one can find. However. generally, any unit can be spotted given enuff time and eyes (pref with binocs) watching.

To spot you definitely should not be in HIDE. That means burying your head in the dirt.

IIRC Recon Platoons do not have any bonuses. (I always encourage designers to make recon units and all specialized units like engineers etc. at least one experience level higher than everyone else in order to give the specialized troops better capabilities.)

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Is there any testing going on for Different Terrain?

As the Woods are simulated (Foxhole in Treeline, atg and Inf with Real good cover) it is great for now. But are there any other Terrains that help?

I know that Crops and Vineyards giving Concealment Bonus. Houses too as i guess. And are can you get as hard spotted in a House/Woods as you can get spot? You know what i mean? Or Does House give good Concealment Bonus and you can spot nearly as good as you where lying outside?

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Is there any testing going on for Different Terrain?

As the Woods are simulated (Foxhole in Treeline, atg and Inf with Real good cover) it is great for now. But are there any other Terrains that help?

I know that Crops and Vineyards giving Concealment Bonus. Houses too as i guess. And are can you get as hard spotted in a House/Woods as you can get spot? You know what i mean? Or Does House give good Concealment Bonus and you can spot nearly as good as you where lying outside?

First, a distinction to draw: concealment (protection from being seen) is different from cover (protection from incoming nastiness). For example, a low wall provides good concealment and cover for troops laying low behind it, but only good cover for them once they rise to kneeling or are standing/running behind it.

It's important, the terrain. Buildings give very good concealment if you remain still and don't shoot, especially the heavier types. The lighter types of building are less good, and so is their cover. Moving on "Slow" in a building will keep you from being seen, down to 20m or so.

Another distinction to draw is between the terrain on the ground and terrain objects like trees. Trees just give the cover and concealment of their trunks and foliage. "Being in a treeline" is not the simple concept you might think (as it is in most other games). If the trees are set on short grass or dirt, being prone underneath the edge of the patch of trees gives you very little more protection than being on a patch of dirt in the open. the different "Forest" terrains give some concealment, but little cover, and "Light" forest gives a lot less than "Heavy". It's also important to recognise that your concealment depends not so much on "where you are" as on "what the LOS has to cross". So if your team is in the first/edge square of a patch of heavy woods, they get the concealment of (on average) 4m of vegetation. If they're in the second square back, they get the benefit of twelve metre.

Like the example I gave above, of the wall, height is important. "Long grass", for example, gives good concealment to prone troops, but kneeling troops' heads tend to stick up above, so the concealment is compromised. It's long enough to almost completely hide small ATGs, but won't help hide a moose like an american 76mm ATG or a Pak43 very much at all.

How terrain practically affects your troops is subtle, and takes some time to really sink in. I am constantly finding new ways in which terrain fails to hide my troops and succeeds in hiding the enemy...

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Thx for the Info!

Three Questions that rose:

1. How can i see what is Light and what is Heavy Trees?

2. Same goes for Light and Heavy Buildings?

3. Does any Terrain (Ground) give Cover/Concealment? Talking about that "Grass" where you look on the Ground and have this very low Grass. Same goes for that really tiny Stones on the Ground where Tanks seems not to pass through. How about that?

This Forum clarifys alot for me!

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1. How can i see what is Light and what is Heavy Trees?

The easiest way is to select a vehicle, choose a movement order mode (any will do), and track your mouse over the questionable ground. Vehicles cannot traverse Heavy Forest, and so the mouse cursor will change to the "impassable" indicator.

2. Same goes for Light and Heavy Buildings?

You'll either just have to pick that up as you go, or mess with them in the editor to see which are what.

3. Does any Terrain (Ground) give Cover/Concealment? Talking about that "Grass" where you look on the Ground and have this very low Grass. Same goes for that really tiny Stones on the Ground where Tanks seems not to pass through. How about that?

Short grass, gravel, dirt, they all give no or very little concealment. All you have to help there is undulations in elevation. "Large rocks" which are impassable to vehicles (and not "tiny" - they're "Large") don't seem to give cover or concealment, either, though it has oft been pondered why not.

This Forum clarifys alot for me!

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I read somewhere a while ago that Troops hiding sometimes break their Hide/Fire Dicipline. Anybody knows something about that or tested it?

Are Hiding Troops showing up when you attack their Place with Rifle/SMG/Mortarfire when you attack that Spot they are hiding in?

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I read somewhere a while ago that Troops hiding sometimes break their Hide/Fire Dicipline. Anybody knows something about that or tested it?

Are Hiding Troops showing up when you attack their Place with Rifle/SMG/Mortarfire when you attack that Spot they are hiding in?

Looking for definitive answers to questions in CM generally doesn't work. There are always variations based on units themselves (levels of discipline and moral), the terrain they are in (does it give enough cover, is your fire in ineffective) etc.

Given that, recon by fire is a very valid tool. The AI in particular is susceptible to this as I think are most human players. Do a target briefly on an area with one unit while having others with LOF to that location can result in a very lopsided exchange if the enemy reveals their presence. If there are more hidden units it can lead to a very lively firefight..... and maybe a not very good return. The downside is if you were trying to sneak into a position, you have now revealed at least one of your units.

Initial recon is a tough part of this game. As Bil has pointed out time and again, sitting still and observing is usually your best option. Sometimes though you need something that works a little faster.

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I read somewhere a while ago that Troops hiding sometimes break their Hide/Fire Dicipline. Anybody knows something about that or tested it?

Yes, they will. Hide is different to "fire discipline" which you impose using Covered Arcs. In either case, if they feel sufficiently threatened, they will ignore your orders, and either open or return fire, or just plain up and run. sburke has outlined some of the factors which will determine their reaction. Their C2 status also matters, as in all things "moraley".

Are Hiding Troops showing up when you attack their Place with Rifle/SMG/Mortarfire when you attack that Spot they are hiding in?

Hiding troops will have to be quite seriously perturbed to "show up" in recon by fire, as will troops that have been given covered arcs such that they don't return your fire when they spot you. I have gained the impression, though, that if they aren't allowed to return fire, the effects of suppression, if it's severe, are magnified and sometimes they'll quit their posts rather than break their fire discipline. Moving pTruppen often get spotted.

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I read somewhere a while ago that Troops hiding sometimes break their Hide/Fire Dicipline. Anybody knows something about that or tested it?

Are Hiding Troops showing up when you attack their Place with Rifle/SMG/Mortarfire when you attack that Spot they are hiding in?

No offense intended, but why don't you patch up the game, load it up and actually answer some of these questions for yourself?

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@Luke: Maybe others are interested too? Why not asking someone who allready tested it?

LOL I would have expressed it differently, but Luke has a point. If you wait for someone else to answer you won't really appreciate the nuances. They can also be incorrect and misleading as we all have our own perceptions that can be influenced by our own style of play.

It helps a lot to create little set ups for yourself to test things. You learn far more AND you learn the editor. It really is very easy to work with to just play around with things and understand them in more detail.

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