Tea Time. Beta AAR discussion threat. Not for Bill or Elvis ;-)

[Baneman]

I guess that's where the vodka comes in.

Out, surely ?

If you strike a Russian in the liver, doesn't that let the vodka out ?

[BLSTK]

Aye, y'av got me there, Banesy.

[Jishmael]

I don't understand your comment to the effect that shooting mortars into woods isn't a good use for them. History shows that it's a very good idea. Poor man's VT, if you will. Not only does fire into trees create highly desirable overhead bursts, but on a real battlefield, soldiers are also taking damage from splintered wood and tree limbs crashing down upon them. It got so bad in Huertgen forest that troops caught on the hop swiftly learned that going prone was a bad idea, greatly increasing the their chances of being hit. Instead, the drill was to hug a tree trunk, since it minimized exposure to fragments coming in vertically rather than horizontally. The treeburst problem was so bad there and losses so great in consequence, that the Army had to provide overhead cover for foxholes.

Nor does it really have to be vertically arriving to wreak havoc. I know of a case in France in which a single barrel 2cm Flak caught a U.S. infantry platoon coming out of a tree line. The direct casualties were exceeded by the aforementioned flying splinters and falling branch issues. Shots which missed the men often hit the tree trunks, causing frags and tree parts coming in from all sorts of unexpected directions. That hapless platoon was pretty much shot to pieces almost instantly, with nearly everyone in the platoon hit and injured and many killed.

I know it was done historically and was very efficient, but A I've never felt any artillery fire into woods was particularly effective in CM. Actually amazingly little Damage taken in most cases.

and B I think that it will b really hard to accurately spot and catch any troops considering the very limited visibility in the woods.

Since Bil's attacking, does anyone know how long it would take him to bring AAA into play once the Ju-87G-2 attack begins? Bil's AAA can't fire from the move, after all. Not even the airplane eating radar directed ZSU-23/4 of the Cold War could do that. When Bil brings his Il-2 to the party, Elvis will presumably have own his flak static and ready to go. Seems to me that might make a real difference.

Update: Went back and checked. Bil has no AAA! He'd better hope the Ju-87G-2 is a poor shot. Otherwise, it could be very painful.

Elvis has no JU, he dropped it because of German CAS not being correctly integrated as of now.

@All

what... Bil is pushing for what?why? what?...I...

Either my whole Analysis of the Battlefield from the Attackers Position is completely wrong, or hes making a big mistake by pushing that deep into the woods. I get why he doenst want to go for the wide open approach, but why oh why is he pushing for Objective Yellow?

Everytime I analyzed the map and the Forces available I felt that every big push for Yellow is a complete Waste of Time and Forces, when so much more can be accomplished in the west. Knowing Elvis's Defences makes this Decision even worse...

On the other hand, maybe things are going to be more exciting then I originally though ^^

[Callidus87]

Well, Bill has always been pretty flexible and will change Plance if openings or blocks present themself.

But Yeah If Bil pushes for Yellow than that will play Elvis in his Hand.

[Andrew H.]

@All

what... Bil is pushing for what?why? what?...I...

Either my whole Analysis of the Battlefield from the Attackers Position is completely wrong, or hes making a big mistake by pushing that deep into the woods. I get why he doenst want to go for the wide open approach, but why oh why is he pushing for Objective Yellow?

Everytime I analyzed the map and the Forces available I felt that every big push for Yellow is a complete Waste of Time and Forces, when so much more can be accomplished in the west. Knowing Elvis's Defences makes this Decision even worse...

On the other hand, maybe things are going to be more exciting then I originally though ^^

I think Bil's afraid that Elvis might have bought several of Panthers (or Jagdpz IV/70s or the like) and might pin down his troops in the open and destroy his armor. Some discussion suggested that Russian armor might be slow to spot and reload. So, theoretically, a couple of keyholed Panthers could bottle up that approach with the Sovs having no effective response.

This would make the woods less risky, particularly because Bil has a lot of infantry (2+ companies, IIRC), many of them armed with SMGs. This would give him an advantage in the woods, although I think his general hope is to find a gap and push his troops though, on the theory that Elvis can't guard everything. And on the theory that when it comes time to fight, he'd rather do it at 100-200 meters than at 800 meters.

[Battlefront.com]

One could just go ask Bil what he's thinking But it is fun to guess!

My assumption is that when he has the woods secured he can move his tanks along Elvis' side of the river then drive down the road straight to Objective Blau. This would be pretty difficult for Elvis to counter if he was deployed to defend the open areas. And even if Elvis has armor in and around the urban areas, Bil's tanks would then be able to engage in knife fights. Bil has already said, explicitly, that is what he's trying to do. And with good reason

Steve

[Migo441]

The armor battle, as so often, will be crucial. If the Soviets can add rampaging T-34/85's and SU-122 on top of their manpower advantage, well...

That's why I was particularly interested in the placement of the German armor. It sounds like LOS is NOT as expansive as the original screen shots may have suggested. So not only will the likely engagement ranges be shorter than Elvis would prefer but, in all likelihood, he will need to maneuver his armor some distance prior to any shots.

So, rather than announcing their presence with a 75mm greeting sent downrange, there is a good chance that Soviet scouting infantry will detect the Panther and/or Hetzers as they move. In that case, who's the hunter and who's the game?

Naturally, if there was a perfect alternative, I'm sure Elvis would use it. Armor positioned in (or more closely to) Objective Blau would also risk detection by Soviet scouts with the possible added disadvantage of constrained movement away.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think the reason Bil is pushing up the east side is because there is no way to get his vehicles through KT3 from where he is at. The road bisecting that forest diagonally can only be accessed on the west side of the forest in the open area he is avoiding, or from the east end of the town, which is where he is heading.

[Cuirassier]

Looks like one of Bil's recon squads stopped for a quick photo before the action begins.

[BLSTK]

Too funny, Cavalryman.

"Fixed Light Sabers, men!"

[lurrp]

It does seem like Elvis predicted Bil's actions. That central push through the woods to Gelb wasn't a fantastic move, methinks. Maybe if Elvis can ambush Bil's troops piecemeal and knock them out, things will not go well for the Soviets.

[YankeeDog]

It does seem like Elvis predicted Bil's actions. That central push through the woods to Gelb wasn't a fantastic move, methinks. Maybe if Elvis can ambush Bil's troops piecemeal and knock them out, things will not go well for the Soviets.

I wouldn't be so sure. It looks like Bil's recon screen has gotten the drop on Elvis' recon screen; the lead Soviet scouts have sound contacts to at least two German units and the German scouts are apparently not yet aware of any Soviet presence. Could go either way, but the way things are positioned at the moment, given this intel advantage and the general nastiness of PPSh SMGs in close range engagements, I'd say Bil is more likely to win the initial exchange of fire handily -- pawn takes pawn in Bil's favor. What happens after that is anybody's guess...

[Michael Emrys]

It does seem like Elvis predicted Bil's actions.

I had the opposite reaction on seeing Elvis' plan. His forces on the eastern flank are so thin that Bil could just blow right through them leaving the forces on the western flank with nothing to do. If Bil moves slowly, Elvis could have time to reposition, but if Bil successfully fakes Elis into believing that the main thrust is coming through the center, then he may just sit tight and wait for developments. It all comes down to how the plans are played.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

It will be interesting to see Elvis' next few posts as we'll get his sense of what's happening.

Agreed that at the moment it's too early to say either way.

Steve

[Vinnart]

I think Elvis went too deep, and aggressive with his recon. This ruined his chance for ambush by surprise for first contact. I don’t understand why he wants to find Bil’s troops when all he has to do is set up ambushes, and Bil will surely find him at the cost of probably losing some men with each ambush. The strength of defense is in ambush IMO, which is the strategy I think he should follow. Elvis has plenty of great terrain for this especially in the woods. He should have stopped at least 50m short of the halfway mark between his starting jump off point and Bil’s, and set his guys prone with 180 degree cover arc. He would have spotted Bil first, and got off the first shots getting the better of the exchange. Bil’s next turn would be area fire into the suspected area. Elvis’s next turn should be the evade command, and reset the ambush the same way 25-50m back from the first, then a repeat of the above. Every time he would pick off a few and slow down Bil’s advance. This will frustrate Bil, eat up time, and lower morale of his forces.

[Battlefront.com]

That's pretty much my play style when on the defensive. I figure if I put my best forces in the best positions in the most likely places of the main effort... I'm going to be golden. And that stuff has to be done in Setup.

Steve

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think it's funny that Elvis and Bil are both trying to fool the other into thinking he has made a larger commitment of forces to KT3 than in reality.

I agree that Elvis needlessly pushed his scouts too far.

[Vinnart]

I predict that Elvis will lose more men next contact hunting for Bil. Bil's SMg teams are better suited for in fighting, and by hunting he loses the element of surprise that ambush would bring. Also, in looking at his set up I would have moved more infantry into the woods doing the ambush, pull back, then reset sequence basically doing a series of delaying action ambushes finally pulling back to dig in to defend the objectives. By doing this Elvis would widdle Bil’s forces down a little bit by bit by the time he plans for a final assault on the objectives.

I’m interested to see how Bil handles the minefield in relation to where he plans to move his Engineers before finding it.

[John Kettler]

Jishmael,

You may think shooting artillery into the woods isn't very effective, but the formidable Bil Hardenberger does. Please see his # 196 in which he explicitly mention his hope Elvis hasn't fired an artillery barrage into the woods, where Bil's T-34/85 and some infantry is on the move.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113383&page=20

I haven't seen many treebursts since I started playing CMBN, and when they did, happily none of my troops was nearby. I'm pretty sure that BFC has maintained the butchery treebursts can cause, but perhaps Steve would care to wade in and address the matter directly? Historically, the problem was so bad on AFVs like the M10, that crews first improvised their own fixes, later followed by, I believe, field mod kits produced by the combat engineers.

Vinnart,

Am of the firm general opinion that going hunting in the woods, while armed mostly with bolt action rifles, against a more numerous foe with not merely lots of SMGs, but really high ROF SMGs, is a bad idea. What happened to Elvis confirms that view. Aggressiveness is certainly desirable, but Elvis's overly aggressive counter reconnaissance effort threw away his positional and cover advantage, nullifying his defense modifiers, if you will. To use a boxing analogy, Elvis tried to stick and move, but got stuck instead and had to move! If he'd picked a good place from which to defend, lain doggo and popped up firing, accompanied by grenades, Bil would be the one hurting right now. Speaking of grenades, they are favored ambush weapons because they don't give away the donors' location. Numerous combat accounts support this assertion. Could we, perhaps, eventually gain explicit control over grenade use and man-portable antitank weapons? This would greatly facilitate ambush.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vanir Ausf B]

I predict that Elvis will lose more men next contact hunting for Bil.

You called it

[Jishmael]

Jishmael,

You may think shooting artillery into the woods isn't very effective, but the formidable Bil Hardenberger does. Please see his # 196 in which he explicitly mention his hope Elvis hasn't fired an artillery barrage into the woods, where Bil's T-34/85 and some infantry is on the move.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113383&page=20

I haven't seen many treebursts since I started playing CMBN, and when they did, happily none of my troops was nearby. I'm pretty sure that BFC has maintained the butchery treebursts can cause, but perhaps Steve would care to wade in and address the matter directly? Historically, the problem was so bad on AFVs like the M10, that crews first improvised their own fixes, later followed by, I believe, field mod kits produced by the combat engineers.

As I said I'm well aware of its historical use. And noted that Bil seems to consider it a relevant threat. Sadly I dont have the time to do any real testing but am only basing my opinion on a few occurences with a lot of different variables on top. I've seen heavy casualties caused by artillery in woods, by lucky direct hits, and I've also seen a complete Mortar Battry and multiple PAKs surviving an onslaught of Rockets in deep Wood, so I just dont know about the Effect of Trees in the Engine

I still think theres a spotting problem with the positions we are talking about, and I personally dislike preplanned barrages on moving targets. But maybe thats just me being bad with artillery.

[Michael Emrys]

Speaking of grenades, they are favored ambush weapons because they don't give away the donors' location. Numerous combat accounts support this assertion. Could we, perhaps, eventually gain explicit control over grenade use and man-portable antitank weapons? This would greatly facilitate ambush.

I don't know if the game reflects it, but there is a real problem in close woods. And that is the grenade striking a branch or trunk and being deflected, even coming back at the thrower or his mates! Such a thing in fact happened to Senator Robert Dole, who served in the Army during the war. He threw a grenade that hit a tree and came back at him, wounding him severely and disabling him for life.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Back when I had time and opportunity to play paintball there was a time when paint grenades first hit the market. They were super expensive and so it was quite a novelty. I'll never forget the guy chucking his in a beautiful high arc towards some opposing forces, only to have it hit a branch and fall to the ground where it detonated very entertainingly, but harmlessly.

Of course in real life a grenade has a lot of heft going for it. Still, anybody that's been off trail in the woods knows there's plenty of opportunities for deflection. We don't simulate this, unfortunately.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

So it looks like Elvis came out on the losing end of the first encounter. Elvis is hoping it will at least result in shaping Bil's plans. However, I don't see that happening when I look in Bil's thread.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Still, anybody that's been off trail in the woods knows there's plenty of opportunities for deflection.

You got that right. During the 1970s I spent nearly six years living in the Santa Cruz Mountains where it was partially wooded. The woods were not especially thick, you could walk between the trees without a lot of difficulty and the undergrowth was modest to non-existant in most places. In spite of that, it would have been a real challenge to throw a grenade-sized and weighted object any distance and be assured that it would land where intended. Especially if the target was striving to avoid giving you an easy shot. It might in some cases be possible, but it would definitely not be a high odds attack.

Michael