Tea Time. Beta AAR discussion threat. Not for Bill or Elvis ;-)

[Callidus87]

Hi, as some of us are getting pretty detailed about tactics in the German threat I thought I'll open up another one so we can speak freely.

If you want to read the AARs without Spoilers and Opinions from third parties you should stay out of this threat as it would ruin your enyoment.

That was the only warning.

From now on Spoilers.

If this is the wrong place or you want to handle it another way please feel free to redirect me.

In the German side threat we are discussing how, the Germans should defend on this battlefield, and we have 3 Formations and opinions at the moment.

Vanir would like to see 2 fusilier companies + AT mines and 2 Hetzers, 1 quad halftrack + support.

And would do a "forward defence".

Lurrp: would like to see off map mortars with TRP, AT guns, perhabs a ju87, a granadire company Hetzer + Panther.

Which sounds for me like a fixed defencive position and an ambusch plan when Bill has to exit the forest and enter the village.

I hope both will elaburate theire Plans in detaile here and we can have a nice discussion.

I would like to see a force of: 2 JU 87 G, 1 Panther, 2 Hetzer, 2 quad half track, 1 Straggler Group and 1 fusilier company (-).

I would do a mobile defence over more or less the hole map in depth.

( we all would use some infantrie flamethrowers in our companies)

As It is pretty late I will stop here and tell you my thoughts tomorrow and explain what I meant with the above statment.

Please continue, enyo and keep friendly.

PS: Sorry for my spelling, it's usualy pretty bad and it's not better at 2 am.

If some one could correct the titel please...

PS2: lucky I couldn't sleep^^

[Vanir Ausf B]

You can edit thread titles the same way you edit posts. Unfortunately by the time you read this tomorrow the 2-hour window to do so will have closed, as will have your opportunity to upload Bil's map into your placeholder spot

[Jishmael]

My 2 ct. I would forget the objectives and try to destroy Bil's forces.

To make the best from the open north of the map, I would order three of the cheapest Panther (regular, not typical!) and keep them away in the north, with oversight into the village (if the map allows that).

I would also not try to hold the woods, because it can be expected he will buy lots of PPSh units. No need to face them at close range in the woods.

Northeast objective: Let him come torwards north through the wood. He will be able to get to the end of the wood southern of the northeast objective. There he will already smell victory and begin to concentrate forces for the final attack on the objective.

Southern of the objective I would place two TRPs in the woods - for a line barrage between the two TRPs.

I'd buy 81mm mortars, two barrels, 80-100 grenades; gives two fully short+heavy barrages - this should be enough to decimate any forces ready to jump off for the final attack.

The rest has to be done by two platoons. One in the objective 0or northern of the objective. And one as reserve on the far left border of the map in the woods. The task of this platoon would be to cut the attacking forces off, or at least attack into their right side.

Thanks to my Panthers controlling the north, he will not be able to move tanks around the wood torwards the northeastern objective to support this attack. He can only move through the wood and then must exit the wood.

Additionally also the Panthers can support the defense of the northeastern objective if really necessary.

Remains the village as problem to be solved:

I would place my infantry not in the village, but hard at the north directly adjacent to the farthest northern houses to be covered from the back with long range fire of the Panthers and HMGs.

He can enter the village, but touching the northern side would expose his infantry to the long range fire. The longer he would stay there, the weaker his forces would become.

I would keep the Panthers hidden and wait until he exposes some of his tanks.

T34-85 I would only attack with at least two against one to be on the safe side. Until no clear picture of all his tank forces, I also would keep the Panthers closely together.

HMGs:

One HMG for the northeastern objective, NOT in the objective, but covering the route from the wood to the objective and the objective. The best would be a position that cannot be seen from the woods, but only if the woods have been left torwards the objective.

And four HMGs roughly 300-500 m northern of the village.

These could also act as supressors against the tanks right before the Panthers engage a tank.

ps: since he will probably have lots of artillery, I would use one squad, splitted into three teams as forward posts, in the wood and in the village to make him believe I was sitting there. I would be loud and shoot and as soon as he recognizes me, I would sneak away hopefully making him waste his artillery on the village and in the woods.

I see what you are coming from, but I'm not really sure if it would work that well. Firing Mortars into Woods is suboptimal in my Opinion, and also needs Strong Supression to be able to really do a lot of Damage.

Also you're playing against Russians here, trying to only engage 2:1 could be really difficult especially if you have to start doing it against T34, which can appear in insane Numbers. If you wanna Hide the Tanks you'd have to defend really deep with them, allowing the Enemy Armor easy access to good cover and angles inside the town and in the woods, as well as well formed Infantry Support and relatively free Scouting. If you try to keep them close to the Farm the Chances of being spotted by Enemy Air is relatively high too, so then you'd have to commit the Flak there too and with the possibility of IL2s it becomes a real gamble. It sounds risky to me.

The same with the Infantry. You're putting up 2 Platoons against possibly multiple Russian Companys with Armor Support. I generally dont think covering the Village will be as easy, as the Farm and the Ridges/Woods around make a very easy and logical Target for Enemy Artillery. If I interpret the Screenshopts right the Slopes in the Terrain make Flanking Fire relatively hard, and the Flanking Positions would also have to defend against Enemys Sweeping the Woods, which might come in Force. It just doenst sound like you would reach Fire Superiority and especially Armor Superiority against a Careful and well supported Soviet Advance.

I generally agree about the PPshs though and think a flexible Defence with counterattack Options or a really staggered deep Defense might be the best bets to counter the Russian Onslaught. Either Slow him down and make him fight for every Inch, wasting Morale, Lifes and especially Time in the Process, or try to stay flexible and keep your outnumbered tanks alive through careful movement and splitting them wisely in positions covering each other. Shoot and Scoot whenever you can, dont get too tstatic or you risk being overwhelmed by the sheer numbers the Russians can bring.

So actually I think Callidus Formation is generally not a bad Idea, as the Hetzers give you very good options for Ambush and Retreat/ or even hard to detect shoot and scoot. Maybe I'd drop one of the JUs, and instead arm one more heavily, but thats just taste I think. Also: Schrecks. Lots of em, theyre one of the biggest Advantages ov German Infantry over Russians and can really Devastate Infantry in the Woods and the City too.

Heck, even a good Armored Car could be a useful asset if you got the Rarity for one with a big enough gun and the Terrain sloping allows for some good field of movement

On the other Hand, I'm horrible at playing germans and dont know their TO&E very well, so maybe I'm very very wrong

[lurrp]

I think the key to this lies in those southern woods. If Bil gets them free, or with limited resistance, he's good as gold. As long as that wooded/BUA contains Elvis' troops, I doubt Bil will risk moving his armor up. However, if Elvis only puts up light picket forces, Bill can sweep them aside fairly quickly and bring up the armor. A couple of MG-42s and mortars almost certainly won't stop Bil from using those woods as a jump-off to the main town. Also, Bil has some serious armor. Elvis doesn't have enough points at his disposal to counter it effectively while still keeping a balanced force. Even three Panthers, as suggested, might be hard-pressed to handle those SU-122s. So unless Elvis can wreak some serious havoc with his ambushes, slow Bil down lots in the woods, get really lucky, or all three, I think Bil has it made. Just my two cents though, and it's early days yet.

[lurrp]

Also, in a bit I'll elaborate on my suggested idea as OP suggested.

[lurrp]

So my plan is a combination of two seemingly contradictory ideas. First: don't let Bil gain a foothold in those woods, and second: don't let him pound away at a distance with his considerable armor and support weaponry. Therefore, my plan involves drawing Bil into the woods to be ambushed, but not allowing his entire force to move in and overwhelm mine (I'll be referring to the Germans as "mine" here). First of all, TRPs should be used liberally. Lots of TRPs. I see them being used for constant harassing fire. Basically, the whole job of the mortars is to inflict light casualties and impose a "tax" on movement. Remember, those PPSh SMGs will run out of ammo quickly, and supply trucks are necessary to shuttle rounds to the front. A lucky mortar round or two could really ruin Bil's day, and I'm sure that might limit his resupply.

Second, Bil is methodical. He won't just bum rush his whole force into the woods. I suspect he'll move in scouts, slowly trickling more troops in as he encounters resistance. Therefore, I'd place a platoon of PzG a bit back from the edge of the woods. They have MP-40s and LMG-42s, and they'd be supported by the flamethrower and entrenched in foxholes. They should be able to hit pretty hard, and with any luck the advancing forces will be already weakened by my harassing fire. With any luck, Bil will be unable to use his mortars for fear of hitting his own troops. All the while, scouts will hopefully keep tabs on Bil's armor, and the Stuka will maybe blow some things up. The rest of the force will be positioned in the town and farther back in the woods.

Finally, the support equipment. Any mines handy can make the edge of the woods that much more dangerous, and inflict yet more casualties. The AT guns are more like area denial weapons. By placed in forward positions ideally along choke points, they might be able to inflict some damage and force Bil to allocate resources such as men and mortar ammo into suppressing them. Quite honestly, I think I'd drop the Panther in exchange for mines, which leaves the Hetzer. This is more of a flavor thing, but I'd just use it as a light reserve, waiting in ambush for flank shots and whatnot. The AA gun is for AA purposes.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I like this as a fallback plan after Bil takes the objective in the town. But I'm not so sure I would rely on it as my Plan A.

By placing your main line of resistance on the north edge of town you are conceding a lot of territory, including the objective in the town. At least that is what it seems to me from your description. That would mean that you are going to have to stop him cold at the northern edge of town to prevent him from taking the Western objective.

I would think Elvis realistically could only afford two Panthers. Your entire defense hinges on their long range support. They would have a qualitative edge, but they are not invulnerable frontally and they would be outnumbered. If they go down your defense collapses.

In short, I think your plan could work but would have little margin for error.

My 2 ct. I would forget the objectives and try to destroy Bil's forces.

To make the best from the open north of the map, I would order three of the cheapest Panther (regular, not typical!) and keep them away in the north, with oversight into the village (if the map allows that).

I would also not try to hold the woods, because it can be expected he will buy lots of PPSh units. No need to face them at close range in the woods.

Northeast objective: Let him come torwards north through the wood. He will be able to get to the end of the wood southern of the northeast objective. There he will already smell victory and begin to concentrate forces for the final attack on the objective.

Southern of the objective I would place two TRPs in the woods - for a line barrage between the two TRPs.

I'd buy 81mm mortars, two barrels, 80-100 grenades; gives two fully short+heavy barrages - this should be enough to decimate any forces ready to jump off for the final attack.

The rest has to be done by two platoons. One in the objective 0or northern of the objective. And one as reserve on the far left border of the map in the woods. The task of this platoon would be to cut the attacking forces off, or at least attack into their right side.

Thanks to my Panthers controlling the north, he will not be able to move tanks around the wood torwards the northeastern objective to support this attack. He can only move through the wood and then must exit the wood.

Additionally also the Panthers can support the defense of the northeastern objective if really necessary.

Remains the village as problem to be solved:

I would place my infantry not in the village, but hard at the north directly adjacent to the farthest northern houses to be covered from the back with long range fire of the Panthers and HMGs.

He can enter the village, but touching the northern side would expose his infantry to the long range fire. The longer he would stay there, the weaker his forces would become.

I would keep the Panthers hidden and wait until he exposes some of his tanks.

T34-85 I would only attack with at least two against one to be on the safe side. Until no clear picture of all his tank forces, I also would keep the Panthers closely together.

HMGs:

One HMG for the northeastern objective, NOT in the objective, but covering the route from the wood to the objective and the objective. The best would be a position that cannot be seen from the woods, but only if the woods have been left torwards the objective.

And four HMGs roughly 300-500 m northern of the village.

These could also act as supressors against the tanks right before the Panthers engage a tank.

ps: since he will probably have lots of artillery, I would use one squad, splitted into three teams as forward posts, in the wood and in the village to make him believe I was sitting there. I would be loud and shoot and as soon as he recognizes me, I would sneak away hopefully making him waste his artillery on the village and in the woods.

[Callidus87]

@Lurrp

well I see what you want to do and how it could be devastating.

But I fear it wouldn't work.

What If Bill scouts your AT positions early, take them out with smoke +direct or indirect fire and than uses the now open routes around the forrest for his attack as he sees little movment. you wouldn't be able to react and your company (over 30% of your forces is usless)*.

Your plan relies on bill attacking through the forrest. and there are aproaches in the west and east to go around.

your Plan ist totaly deadly if he attacks in the forrest. but there is a if.

* Duh my mistake u said Platoon.

But I'm not sure one Platoon will be enough for that much terrain. that forrest ist 500m x 600m wide. you would probably need a company.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Now that Elvis has revealed his plan, my first impression is that it is generally solid but I think he is perhaps making a mistake by assuming Bil will make a point of capturing the northeastern woods. He has had a much better look at the map than me, but I don't see the necessity of that unless Bil is going to try to take all 3 objectives. If I were Bil I would do something like this:

[HistoryLover]

I see what you are coming from, but I'm not really sure if it would work that well.

Me not, too.

Firing Mortars into Woods is suboptimal in my Opinion, and also needs Strong Supression to be able to really do a lot of Damage.

I'm thinking more of the two TRPs at the edge of the wood. Where he must move, if he wants to support any advance on the objective.

Also you're playing against Russians here, trying to only engage 2:1 could be really difficult especially if you have to start doing it against T34, which can appear in insane Numbers.

Probably I should have explained the tank tactics better.

It's meant attacking in such a manner, that only ONE enemy tank is attacked each time. That way it doesn't matter how many tanks the oponent has. It only takes a bit longer.

And knock the strongest enemy tanks out first.

And if Bil hides his good tanks, by knocking out ten normal T34 will force him to bring them to the front.

If you wanna Hide the Tanks you'd have to defend really deep with them, allowing the Enemy Armor easy access to good cover and angles inside the town and in the woods, as well as well formed Infantry Support and relatively free Scouting.

Well, if the map is NOT open and offers good places to hide for tanks and jump from one cover to the next, then my plan would be very dangerous, if he manages to get behind the infantry and the Panther can get no LOS.

But that's a prerequisite of the plan, that the map is open and allows long range support for the infantry.

I thought the yellow area was open ground with good LOS. If this is not an open ground where no long range fire can be established, then my plan would be totally wrong.

[Callidus87]

Okay 2 Points:

1. Elvis Plan

2. Bills attack.

Point 1:

That plane gives Bill full control and maneuver for the southern half of the map. It relies on Bill coming from angels he is suspecting without forcing bill to use them. and can easely be out flanked in the west with armor. and his ambush can get attackt from behind from the east.

he won't have enough Mines to make the Minefield he wants.

Well perhabs I just don't understand what he realy wants.

But Imho his Plan has to much holes and will get scouted by Bill.

2.

I think Bill won't have a plan.

I think he will scout excesivley and will take that rout where he thinks he can attack the best.

It LOOKS like he has 3 major avenues of approach.

1 open in the west. one for infantrie through the forest in the middle and one in the east over the river valey and than north up that road.

He will try to find fixed Positions and overwhelm/snipe them, and go around elvis strong Points.

So I expect that he will move scouting forces on all three aproaches and establish his plan after he made contact.

[Callidus87]

Well as i gave up on sleeping tonight I could tell you what I had in mind with my composition.

My general Idea is to fight a realy long Battle with a defence in depth slowly grinding dowm his forces and a major strike when he exits the forrest to assault Obj. Blau.

I see the Forrest as my outpost and skirmish line.

My main Line off defence would be deployed at the grid line 10 and 11.

And the Farm/northern City/ northern Forrest as fall back Positions.

I would deploy the full Straggler Groupe in the Forrest.

They have two major objectives.

First Recon. I need to know where Bill is and especialy where he wants to go.

Second: Delay and attrition. The Woods look pretty dence so it should be possible to lay a lot of small ambushes and delaying his assault and make him waste his ammo.

If this formation has something like 3 Platoons. One would go to the south, one to the West/north and one to the east.

I would also attach some Schrecks and the Flamethrower.

I don't want major engagments with them but a lot off small ones killing his scout teams and than retreat if possible.

It is key that I know where his major Formations are going so that I can react with my mobile elements.

AS Bonus I would place one quad halftrack on the cross road at 10/5 (in concealment/cover) to close down that road through the forrest.

I would deploy both JUs immiediatley to attack the area 5/3 to 2/7 and hopefully slowing him down damaging him.

Okay Now I come to the Tanks.

The Panther would have to close down the West aproach hopefully there is a good concealment spot in the 12/1 11/1 area. If possible he schould get a scout team as assistance to get warned from enemy scouts. He is not fixed to that Position If he is needed elswhere he will have to move. He generley should switch positions as much as Possible after he is scouted.

the 2 Hetzer should assist the Stragglers at the beginning of the match using the intel those provite and prepare ambushes and retreating after being revealt for another ambush. secondly they should combined with the east straggler groupe try to make a lot of noice in the east, so he doesn't want to go that way. This is secondary if he approaches that way we will have to switch Positions to make our major hit in the 11/6 to 10/8 area.

It is importaint that we don't risk to much with the Hetzer as we will need them later.

Our fusilier company (-)

Will be our main line of defence + the surving stragglers and tanks. here are concealt positions importaint to attack him when he leaves the forrest and is in the open. those Positions shouldn't have line of fire into the forrest as i don't want them to get Pinned by infantrie firing out of the forrest. this may conclude in loosing Obj. Blue but will preserve forces.

i'm not concernt or less concernt if he wants to go east for obj. Gelb. that will cost him a lot of time and from there he has to cross a lot of open fields if he wants to reach the farm.

After that it should be a city fight vs an hopefully exhausted and depleted enemy.

I hope I made clear what and how i want to fight this.

the second Quad will guard the Panther from air attacks (hopefully) and is a great assitance in the city fighting and the ambush when he leaves the forrest.

It is possible that i won't have as many Schrecks as I like, and that that would force me to replace the Panther for a Pak 40/ Marder or PZ IV but none of this would be good.

Please feel free to comment.

I know this has flaws but every plan has and I think this is a good compromise. Yes i would like to have more infantry but I think it is realy needed that we have mobile Ranged AT capability as russians could flood the field with t34 and infantrie and schrecks alone wouldn't be enough imho. AT Mines would be great too but I don't see a unit that i could trade. JUs 28 Points/ Quads 50... So Perhabs just one Hetzer. to get Mines and Schrecks.

If I could place mines i would Place them on crossroads in the forrest and the southern city and the west aproach. Not one big feels but a lot of them at shoke points and key locations and as far south as it's still smart.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think the key to this lies in those southern woods. If Bil gets them free, or with limited resistance, he's good as gold. As long as that wooded/BUA contains Elvis' troops, I doubt Bil will risk moving his armor up. However, if Elvis only puts up light picket forces, Bill can sweep them aside fairly quickly and bring up the armor. A couple of MG-42s and mortars almost certainly won't stop Bil from using those woods as a jump-off to the main town. Also, Bil has some serious armor. Elvis doesn't have enough points at his disposal to counter it effectively while still keeping a balanced force. Even three Panthers, as suggested, might be hard-pressed to handle those SU-122s. So unless Elvis can wreak some serious havoc with his ambushes, slow Bil down lots in the woods, get really lucky, or all three, I think Bil has it made. Just my two cents though, and it's early days yet.

I think we see the situation very similarly. Although my methods might be a little different I agree that Bil will almost certainly attempt to clear the woods in the center of the map directly to the South of the town, and this will provide an excellent opportunity for Elvis to bleed him.

Unfortunately it appears that Elvis intends to offer only token resistance there.

[Callidus87]

hehe nice to see that we all would like to see Bill bleed in that woods ^^

And from what I read so far Our Plans aren't actualy so diffrent from each other. Vanir you are up

[BLSTK]

Good stuff, Guys. Thanks for posting this thread. I'm enjoying the stream of consciousness approach each of you is using to describe your plan(s). To me the BAR (as in Before Action Report) is just as compelling as the AAR. Will continue to follow with interest as "Bil vs Elvis" develops.

[Vanir Ausf B]

hehe nice to see that we all would like to see Bill bleed in that woods ^^

And from what I read so far Our Plans aren't actualy so diffrent from each other. Vanir you are up

My plan would be pretty simple. Deploy my 6 platoons (I would have taken 2 companies if you'll recall) roughly as shown on the map below. Bleed Bil a drop at a time in the woods as discussed, then later in the town as necessary via large numbers of small ambushes, keeping the engagement ranges short to where his armor can't offer much support, moving platoons laterally across the northern edge of town to reinforce threatened areas. Death by a thousand cuts. Beyond that, just ascertain where he is going so as to be sure to be there "first with the most".

I don't know where I would put my Hetzers. That would require more detailed LOS information than can be gleaned from screenshots. Probably keyholed along the western end of town to cover the more open approaches on that side.

[Vanir Ausf B]

And Bil just posted his initial plans. Looks like his usual recon pull.

Elvis hasn't posted his OOB yet, but from his plans and comments I fear he is going to only bring a single company of infantry. That is going to leave him very thin covering 1000 meters of frontage in close terrain. Or he will have gaping holes. It looks like he may be intending to cover the eastern forest with only mines, and may not defend the open western approach as much as Bil is expecting (or as much as I would have expected).

[HistoryLover]

I like this as a fallback plan after Bil takes the objective in the town. But I'm not so sure I would rely on it as my Plan A.

I think that for this map the units on the German side are too few to build a defendable and stable MLR.

Especially the woods would need lots of infantry and support weapons.

While Bil probably has the advantage of more units (in the meanwhile I have read his thread and that is the case).

Enough units for one side while the other side has too few units, IMO are a big plus, because he can force the initiative almost wherever he wants while he can keep all routes threatened.

Therefore I thought that reducing the MLR to a minimum, while this minimum can receive the maximum amount of fire support.

The problem with forward defending on this map IMO is, that a capable attacker seems to have good possibilities of a wide advanceing infantry "screen". Each spot could be threatened from two or more angles.

The defender proabably would be pinned within seconds, before he can retreat.

By placing your main line of resistance on the north edge of town you are conceding a lot of territory, including the objective in the town. At least that is what it seems to me from your description. That would mean that you are going to have to stop him cold at the northern edge of town to prevent him from taking the Western objective.

Yes.

The terrain is not good for the weak forces anyway. The HMGs need open ground like the tanks.

It's also possible to defend dense areas with not so many units. But the problem here is, that Bil get's the possibility to encircle the village and shoot it into pieces, while his infantry moves in slowly.

I don't see a realistic possibility for a victory except the plan to avoid the heavy fighting until it takes place, where the tanks and HMGs can support it.

I would think Elvis realistically could only afford two Panthers.

That's not enough. One is lost easily and then the chances in tank duels are much much lower.

Before I would buy only two Panthers, I would buy three Hetzers.

The three Panthers would cost him roughly 1100 points IIRC. That's less than a third of the overall points. I think it's acceptable.

Your entire defense hinges on their long range support. They would have a qualitative edge, but they are not invulnerable frontally and they would be outnumbered. If they go down your defense collapses.

In short, I think your plan could work but would have little margin for error.

Yes. But what realistic other chances does this map offer? This is all close range and Bil has much more infantry and more ammo and can approach everywhere.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think that for this map the units on the German side are too few to build a defendable and stable MLR.

Especially the woods would need lots of infantry and support weapons.

Two companies of infantry would be enough, as I recommended.

Before I would buy only two Panthers, I would buy three Hetzers.

The three Panthers would cost him roughly 1100 points IIRC. That's less than a third of the overall points. I think it's acceptable.

Elvis has 2500 points to spend, so 3 Panthers is about 44%. Bil has 3500, which is actually only a 1:4 to 1 advantage, less than the standard CMx2 QB attack ratio of 1.65 to 1 (IIRC). I was quite surprised to see that Bil was able to get basically a battalion of infantry, 5 tanks and all the rest of the stuff he listed. Soviet units must be cheap as dirt.

[76mm]

heh, reading this thread really makes me respect the RL commanders; OK, while they couldn't select their own forces they had a couple of hours to make their deployment decisions, and probably had much less detailed info about the terrain than we have in CM. And if they got it wrong, lots of people died.

I think this is a tough map to defend, we'll see how things go.

[Callidus87]

@ Vanir: Well If he as it's seems likley now he will adavance east you would have to stop his 3 companies + tanks with one platoon in close quarters with only one Platoon able to react fast.

If he breaks through that West Flank he has won as he can easely take the northern Obj. and will have a better Fire Position on forces in Obj. Blau.

So spare mines should be placed there.

I realy hope Elvis brings more than one company.

[Vanir Ausf B]

@ Vanir: Well If he as it's seems likley now he will adavance east you would have to stop his 3 companies + tanks with one platoon in close quarters with only one Platoon able to react fast.

If he breaks through that West Flank he has won as he can easely take the northern Obj. and will have a better Fire Position on forces in Obj. Blau.

So spare mines should be placed there.

Of course if he concentrates all 3 companies to attack along the same axis he will outnumber the defenders there. NO way to avoid that. But I would be shifting more than one platoon.

[George MC]

This is the original map the scenario map is based on. That and pics on google earth (mostly for vegetation/field info). The section Bil and Elvis are using is the is the bit centre and slightly right. It'll give you an idea of the terrain elevations.

[Callidus87]

@ Vanir. naturaly you would shift mroe forces but there is "only" one that can react pretty fast and help the one platoon that is attackt directly. the rest will need time to arrive.

And i just wanted to show a weak point. Well my plan has the same/ similiar Problem.

I never Imagined Bill would suggest that line of approach, and I think it will give him Problems If he comitts to much to it and Elvis reads it correctly.

Elvis could hold him in that Forests and Flank for a realy long time.

[Jishmael]

I actually really like Bils Venues of approach, I wouldve started a bit more to the West, but the general Venues hes identified are all really good for exploiting his dvantage in Numbers and either using his speed and mass for aggressive pushing or quick exploiting of any Gaps.

Heres what I wouldve done, I drew alittle map but we now have Bils Shots as an Orientation.

If the amount of forces and the spread of the enemy allows it I'd go for a split push on Axis Red and Yellow 1, Using KT1 as a base and pushing mainly thorugh KT3 (if its defended heavily, you can use troops from Axis Red as support, and vice versa) Maybe push some through KT4 to be able top bring up some Armor through the middle of woods. If you can pull that little split off your enemy will have a hard time shifting forces if outnumbered, and will still be hard pressed if not.

As soon as Obj Blue falls, Obj Red is basically done too and from there its jus an easy sweep east towards Yellow. Probably being able to circumvent the eastern woods altogether, exccept if we havent encountered much anti tank forces so far.

So yeah basically I'd go for a relatively fast and focused push on Obj Blue, trying to keep everything defending deep or to the east irrelevant as much as possible and cutting of german options for effective redeployment.

Bil is probably better off scouting all venues though and playing less aggressive than my personal style ^^

I think from what we know about Elvis now I would place my bets on him getting slaughtered. His support and especially anti armor capability is too low, with the cheap stragglers its improbably that his infantry has any huge training and/or equipment advantage against the russian horde and even if the Russians split hed always be outnumbered and unable to really shift much. If Bil spots that Ob Blau is basically undefended he should be able to quickly exploit that Gap and finish it. Not looking good for Gerry here.

I'd have liked to see something similiar to Callidus and ore Vanir a lot more, and wouldve then put the Panther in Reserve around 13/02, maybe behind that House. Trying to only engage with it when Bil doenst expect it anymore. I've gotten a second company and that JU for added uncertainity tioo.

Probably I should have explained the tank tactics better.

It's meant attacking in such a manner, that only ONE enemy tank is attacked each time. That way it doesn't matter how many tanks the oponent has. It only takes a bit longer.

And knock the strongest enemy tanks out first.

And if Bil hides his good tanks, by knocking out ten normal T34 will force him to bring them to the front.

If think you are making a huge mistake here. There are no "bad tanks" as long as theres T34/85, everything the soviet brings threatens your panther. Theres still the IL2 which can possibly dive under flak cover with its sick armor and ruin your day before the enemy tanks even appear. You're also completely giving him the infantry battle with that plan, looking at the points available, which will strongly reduce your spotting capabilities and give even more Advantages to the way more mobile and better supported Russian Armor.

I dont think the Map allows for careful movement of a whole 3 tank squad of panthers for 3 on 1 engagements when being outnumbered and outmaneuvered more or less by default. .

Your Strategy feels to me like it is better suited to fight western allies like US or UK troops, not the Russians.

Well, if the map is NOT open and offers good places to hide for tanks and jump from one cover to the next, then my plan would be very dangerous, if he manages to get behind the infantry and the Panther can get no LOS.

But that's a prerequisite of the plan, that the map is open and allows long range support for the infantry.

I thought the yellow area was open ground with good LOS. If this is not an open ground where no long range fire can be established, then my plan would be totally wrong.

I'm pretty sure the Yellow Area is a wheat field, and it looks like theres crops on it + we dont know the sloping + you still cant cover your flanks with that and every time you retreat to reposition, even if you pull it off with slower tanks, the russians still get ground and can shift more quickly than you.