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CMRT - BETA AAR - Soviet Side


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MikeyD,

Good things to know. May I suggest a simple first order test? Look at the in-game US 76mm Sherman gun performance vs Panther. If the Russian 85mm is outperforming the 76mm, then the data for the 85mm are wrong. Russian firing tests at NIBT Poligon clearly established the 76mm as having better penetration than the 85mm had. Firing tests vs a King Tiger showed quite substantial differences!

http://english.battlefield.ru/was-the-tiger-really-king.html

"10. American 76 mm armor-piercing projectiles penetrated the "Tiger-B" tank's side plates at ranges 1.5 to 2 times greater the domestic 85 mm armor-piercing projectiles."

Topic change

Since you're here, would you or someone else please provide the link posting guidance I requested on January 21st of this year? The whole issue makes me twitchy, following an Infraction awhile back. Nor am I the only one in this boat. Thanks!

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113229

Regards,

John Kettler

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In 1944 quality of German armor became poor. Penetration from such range is possible, I think.

Could be, although I don't remember seeing the exact range mentioned. But that is a Panther G (early), which in CMBN is the first Panther model on which the "glacis armor has occasional manufacturing flaws", to quote the manual.

If we assume CMx2 models Panther armor flaws similar to how it was in CMx1 then the glacis would be 85% quality, which would resist Soviet 85mm APBC equivalent to 144.5mm at vertical. (170 x .85). Again, we don't know the exact range, but it looked to be under 300 meters. 85mm APBC penetrates 133mm of RHA at 250 meters. A penetration/resistance ratio of .92 (133/144.5) gives a penetration percentage of either 2% (US test data) or 13% (Soviet test data). It's anyone's guess what CM uses, and there could have been a small elevation difference which the highly sloped Panther glacis is very sensitive to, and I'm assuming the glacis is 82mm thick without knowing what CM calls it.

But yeah, it's probably possible against a late model Panther, albeit still quite a lucky shot.

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BR-365P had 140mm at 500 metres. (80%, 90 degrees) If it was subcaliber round - all is OK. If not - very lucky shot.

If this was an APCR shot, then highly sloped plate would have resisted differently and proportionately much more than vertical. The diameter of the subcaliber penetrator is equivalent to 20-30 mm round, which means that the plate would be substantially undermatched (less than 50% thickness: diameter) in which case the slope effects would be magnified. I think that BR 365P should not go through upper glacis of Panther either.

Maciej

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Vanir Ausf B, DMS and Maciej Zwolinkski,

In CMBO and CMBB, I believe, any penetration related number had some variability applied to it, so that it wasn't purely deterministic. That is to say that lower quality German armor plate wasn't always 85% of baseline, but merely that was the lower bound of what was possible. Very groggy comments! What was the source, please for the BR-365P data? The only Russian produced set I've seen came from Battlefield.ru, on the English side of the house.

Regards,

John Kettler

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Man I am glad you guys are here to keep BFC straight. Reminds me of some Field Service Reps I have run into.

CPT ScoutPL: "What do you mean I cant drive across two wadis, dragging another MRAP with a busted axle and not expect to blow the engine!?!"

FSR: "Sir, we aren't saying you cant do it. Obviously you can, your guys just did. We just don't recommend it."

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Vanir Ausf B, DMS and Maciej Zwolinkski,

In CMBO and CMBB, I believe, any penetration related number had some variability applied to it, so that it wasn't purely deterministic. That is to say that lower quality German armor plate wasn't always 85% of baseline, but merely that was the lower bound of what was possible. Very groggy comments! What was the source, please for the BR-365P data? The only Russian produced set I've seen came from Battlefield.ru, on the English side of the house.

Regards,

John Kettler

Yes, data are from Battlefield.ru. :) It is surprising, that there are so few data about 85mm vs Panther tests. There a lot of nice photos for 122mm and 152mm rounds, like that:

image_5035e1a144146.jpg

(http://world-of-kwg.livejournal.com/39265.html)

But I found nothing for S-53 or D-5.

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There is no way that is from a single hit of anything. Those pics look a lot like tank hulls that most armies drag out onto their gunnery ranges for target practice. If that is a single 152mm round it has to be after the hull was severely degraded by multiple hits, particularly after looking at the turret and how much of it has practically been blown away. Not saying I know anything about the photo, just explaining what it looks like based on my experience.

And no, I wouldn't want to be riding in ANYTHING with a 152mm round coming down range. Did they even make AT specific rounds for the 152mm? Or was it just HE?

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There is no way that is from a single hit of anything. Those pics look a lot like tank hulls that most armies drag out onto their gunnery ranges for target practice. If that is a single 152mm round it has to be after the hull was severely degraded by multiple hits, particularly after looking at the turret and how much of it has practically been blown away. Not saying I know anything about the photo, just explaining what it looks like based on my experience.

And no, I wouldn't want to be riding in ANYTHING with a 152mm round coming down range. Did they even make AT specific rounds for the 152mm? Or was it just HE?

Two shots at glacis.

1st shot - 122mm from D-25, 1400m, penetration. (lower from large hole on the photo)

2nd - 152mm, 1200m, ML-20, ricochete, armor breach. AT round.

Turret - penetration of HE 152mm round in side armor. Turret armor was deraded by multiple hits, yes.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I finally had the chance to read through Bils posts. I have no idea if the game would have ended any better for me but I am struck by how hamstrung I was by having only black sound contacts for infantry and armor for most of the game. Bill made mention a few times about what I may have been thinking about his armor movements on my left. I had no indication that he had armor there. The one time I spotted a T34 with riders it was headed toward BLAU. Bil was making plans assuming I knew things that I didn't.

I hope this doesn't sound like sour grapes because I don't mean it to. Looking at both sides of the battle the only chance I had was if I took out all 3 of his T34s without losing any. No small feat. Possible but not probable.

Damn, does he put on a great presentation. If I feel any shame as a result of this battle, it is that his presentation was so much nicer than mine. :)

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If I feel any shame as a result of this battle, it is that his presentation was so much nicer than mine

Yes, but you have your own style which is just as good. Bils' presentation is fantastic and his eye for a great image is akin to a great war photographer but his text is a bit clinical (not a criticism Bil!). Your descriptions have a lot of colour to them, which I really like. I think both of your presentational styles compliment each other.

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I finally had the chance to read through Bils posts. I have no idea if the game would have ended any better for me but I am struck by how hamstrung I was by having only black sound contacts for infantry and armor for most of the game. Bill made mention a few times about what I may have been thinking about his armor movements on my left. I had no indication that he had armor there. The one time I spotted a T34 with riders it was headed toward BLAU. Bil was making plans assuming I knew things that I didn't.

I hope this doesn't sound like sour grapes because I don't mean it to. Looking at both sides of the battle the only chance I had was if I took out all 3 of his T34s without losing any. No small feat. Possible but not probable.

Damn, does he put on a great presentation. If I feel any shame as a result of this battle, it is that his presentation was so much nicer than mine. :)

Well I really enjoyed your AAR Elvis - thanks for putting all that effort in (obviously the same goes to Bil) I only hope we can see another AAR from you.

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