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You are right about one thing... I do enjoy a good debate, even if it is a frustrating one. Keeps me sharp. Though ironically having a debate with you makes me more convinced we're doing things right :D If you're familiar with Rocky and Bullwinkle, I find it useful to engage in discussions with Captain Wrongway Peachfuzz types.

Plus, if you crossed a line I'd just invite you not to return. That's easily done, though I rarely exercise that option and never without very good cause.

I think Mike's point is a more general one. There's never universal approval of any product. So nobody should be surprised to see it here.

Steve

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So on my days off I usually go and get a hotel room closer to my wonderful girlfriend. Right down the street is a place that serves awesome chorizo. I have ordered it maybe 25 times over the last year. Always great.

Ok so on Friday morning I go yet again. Tastes great. I get to work. A few minutes later I am in the bathroom throwing up. I mean I threw up so much I couldnt even talk because the acid stripped my throat so bad it hurt to talk. So ya I got food poisoning. And not just a little case it was so bad I considered going to the hospital (which if you knew me would be like a devout Jew wanting to eat only ham).

Now I have a decision to make. Do I ever go back there? Do I ever eat chorizo again now that I know what it tastes like mixed with bile? I think if I viewed CM-T like you do I may have to consider if I wanted to be a customer again. Our only difference Harv is that I wouldnt sit here for days writing them letters telling them how bad I got sick....I'll just not go back.

-Ray

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<snip>

Our only difference Harv is that I wouldnt sit here for days writing them letters telling them how bad I got sick....I'll just not go back.

-Ray

Whoosh! Right over your head, eh Ray? I'll make it real simple like and paraphrase what I wrote above:

Arguing with me (and Steve too I've seen) on the internet is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. Eventually you'll realize the pig is enjoying it. And I like this mud.

You can go sit down with MikeyD now.

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So, way back on page one of the thread I said to myself... "Self, now that Steve himself has responded, if you get into multi-quoting and detailed line by line discussions he will grind you down and spit you out. You've seen it before, so don't you dare do it or you'll see it again."

Apparently I don't even listen to me.

Sadly (for me anyways), it really doesn't matter as I was at an insurmountable disadvantage no matter how I tried to play this out. Regardless of what conclusions I chose to draw from the release and subsequent development/support of CMT, unless you pulled a Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men and admitted whatever "guilt" (wrong word, but I like using it) I was hoping you'd suddenly blab out in a moment of weakness and pride, this was always going to be a pointless exercise. If you didn't make any of the decisions I accused you of, then obviously you're never going to say you did and I'm an asswipe. And if you did make any of the decisions I thought you had, then you're never going to be crazy enough to admit to anything and make company strategy public. And I'm an asswipe.

But it was entertaining and educational (yes, I did learn and take away a few things, but I'll never admit that to you :)). And as I truly am doing nothing more than wasting your time with it now (that and I see a couple of the regulars are starting to lose patience also, which won't make this very pleasant at all) I shall very ungracefully, whilst tripping over the soap box/pulpit/lectern, bow out.

One last quote though...

That means the only reasonable way you're going to get what you want is if we have a failure.

That is such convoluted logic that I'm hoping you're still sleep deprived. Or something. :)

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Im glad you are going away Harv. You sound like you need a vacation from you though.

Really Ray? Seriously? You just had to do that? I could actually hear the collective groan from people who just want this thread to die!

The thing is, it's people like you that make life so fun and easy for people like me. Contrary to my last post I really don't want the thread to wither away, because I enjoy (sometimes heated) discussion, and I enjoy learning things. Your post, bless your little heart for taking the time to type it, has both kept the thread alive, and also let me know all about you and who you are. See, both entertaining and educational.

So anyways, seeing as we're here again, how about we work on some constructive criticism for improving CMT. Nothing too deep to start, just the little things that could improve the experience, or might take away from the overall flow of the game, or have a jarring effect on immersion, or just make you go "hmmmm".

I'll let you pick the topic and start. I'd recommend beginning with something from the top four, as Gameplay will probably take extra time to fully work through.

UI

AI

Graphics

Scenario Design

Gameplay

Hopefully Steve can drop a couple of hints as to what's in the update pipeline so we don't have a situation with a department of redundancy department situation.

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So, way back on page one of the thread I said to myself... "Self, now that Steve himself has responded, if you get into multi-quoting and detailed line by line discussions he will grind you down and spit you out. You've seen it before, so don't you dare do it or you'll see it again."

Apparently I don't even listen to me.

And as I'm doing that I'm thinking "why bother, because Harv will just duck the good points I make, ignore where he's been shown to be factually incorrect, and instead just cherry pick something to keep the conversation going on his terms". Apparently I also don't even listen to me :D

Instead I'll respond just to your blocks, not lines within blocks...

Sadly (for me anyways), it really doesn't matter as I was at an insurmountable disadvantage no matter how I tried to play this out. Regardless of what conclusions I chose to draw from the release and subsequent development/support of CMT, unless you pulled a Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men and admitted whatever "guilt" (wrong word, but I like using it) I was hoping you'd suddenly blab out in a moment of weakness and pride, this was always going to be a pointless exercise. If you didn't make any of the decisions I accused you of, then obviously you're never going to say you did and I'm an asswipe. And if you did make any of the decisions I thought you had, then you're never going to be crazy enough to admit to anything and make company strategy public. And I'm an asswipe.

Well, finally something I can agree with, though not 100%. True that you should have known better about trying to trick/goad me into admitting something that either wasn't true or was true and I didn't want known. Not going to happen. What I disagree with is if your motives were purely benign and intentions aimed at getting us to go in a different direction, there was another way you could have gone. Which is...

But it was entertaining and educational (yes, I did learn and take away a few things, but I'll never admit that to you :)). And as I truly am doing nothing more than wasting your time with it now (that and I see a couple of the regulars are starting to lose patience also, which won't make this very pleasant at all) I shall very ungracefully, whilst tripping over the soap box/pulpit/lectern, bow out.

Instead of making an ill informed, factually flawed case that requires a lot of ducking of my predictable counter points you could have instead tried to present a more positive case without discrediting yourself in the process. For example:

"I know the games you make appeal to many people and they are rewarding you for it with continued purchases. I didn't think that was going to happen, but here we are 7 years later and it looks like you've got yourself into a comfortable groove in an environment which is notoriously unstable. That's great for you and those other people, but not really good for me. Why? Because you went in a different direction than I would have liked and so I'm not on board with your current products. It doesn't make you wrong and me right, it just makes me left out.

If there were a couple other companies out there that I think could pull off the sort of product I'd like, then I'd not be wasting my time posting here. But, sadly, there's few people interested in making wargames at all and the majority of them don't seem capable or willing to make the sorts of games I would like. Which means my hopes of having another CMBO type experience pretty much rest on you guys making it happen. The thing is, I feel strongly that if you made such a game you'd find more rewards await you than you can find with your current product lines. That would be, in both our books, a win-win situation."**

Then you would proceed to describe the sort of game, be it tablet or desktop, that you envision. At which point we might have a discussion about game philosophy instead of me having to hammer your flawed assumptions, theories, and factually flawed conclusions.

That is such convoluted logic that I'm hoping you're still sleep deprived. Or something. :)

No, it's the logical outgrowth of your own hardened logic cycle. We only have an incentive to do something very different if there's a demonstrated demand for it in excess of our current path. Market forces are very much in play. So you have two choices:

1. Hope that our products fail so that we have to try something new (which you hope is more to your liking).

2. Hope that we determine that, as good as our current products are, we could do better with something new (which you hope is more to your liking).

Based on your repeated negative commentary about the products we are making, including the inflammatory first post you made, if I were a betting man I'd have to guess that your mindset is more inline with the first way of thinking than the second one.

Steve

** after several pages I think I've distilled your point down to what I just wrote, but in a form that doesn't dig itself into a hole in the process. If I've got your point wrong, try your own hand at it. Who knows, you might find that we're not very far apart when you stop obligating me to respond to the other stuff.

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So on my days off I usually go and get a hotel room closer to my wonderful girlfriend. Right down the street is a place that serves awesome chorizo. I have ordered it maybe 25 times over the last year. Always great.

Ok so on Friday morning I go yet again. Tastes great. I get to work. A few minutes later I am in the bathroom throwing up. I mean I threw up so much I couldnt even talk because the acid stripped my throat so bad it hurt to talk. So ya I got food poisoning. And not just a little case it was so bad I considered going to the hospital (which if you knew me would be like a devout Jew wanting to eat only ham).

Now I have a decision to make. Do I ever go back there? Do I ever eat chorizo again now that I know what it tastes like mixed with bile? I think if I viewed CM-T like you do I may have to consider if I wanted to be a customer again. Our only difference Harv is that I wouldnt sit here for days writing them letters telling them how bad I got sick....I'll just not go back.

-Ray

Well, since you're a man and she's your girlfriend, OF COURSE you'll go back there. Sheesh. We know the priorities. Since you're Jewish and ate ham infested chorizo (isn't chorizo pork?), that's why you threw up. Duh. Of course you'll do it again. It tastes good. And aren't you just a little curious if you'll get sick again?

Man up. Do what needs to be done.

Oh, to keep on topic, if you DO get sick, play CMT whilst emptying your digestive track and let us know if it's as bad as some say.

;)

Ken

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And as I'm doing that I'm thinking "why bother, because Harv will just duck the good points I make, ignore where he's been shown to be factually incorrect, and instead just cherry pick something to keep the conversation going on his terms". Apparently I also don't even listen to me :D

:D

Well, finally something I can agree with, though not 100%. True that you should have known better about trying to trick/goad me into admitting something that either wasn't true or was true and I didn't want known. Not going to happen. What I disagree with is if your motives were purely benign and intentions aimed at getting us to go in a different direction, there was another way you could have gone. Which is...

Actually my motive was purely to stir up ****. :) I mean, really, with an opening post like I made, there wasn't much chance of this thread being very productive from the outset. Not that I'm mounting a crusade on BFC and I'm going to spam the forums with derogatory crap, I just thought I'd poke around a little with a sharpened stick/toss a grenade and see what happened. Of course you showed up and started into an actual discussion, and being that I had already chosen the path I was going to take I was destined to be crushed. It was more interesting to be sure, and probably kept me from getting hit with the ban hammer (so far), but there was only ever going to be one outcome regardless.

None of that means I still don't want to see a pile of changes made to CMT that will morph it into what I think will be a fun game of CM on my iPad, because I really really do, but I knew going in that this thread wasn't going to make that happen.

Instead of making an ill informed, factually flawed case that requires a lot of ducking of my predictable counter points you could have instead tried to present a more positive case without discrediting yourself in the process.

I'm ok with being "discredited", as I have no credit to begin with. This is the danger of getting in a discussion (or argument) with me, as I simply do not care about the outcome. No matter how horribly I might "lose", my ego won't be left in ruins, I won't suffer from depression, my farm won't go bankrupt, my cat won't hate me, I won't suddenly have a revelation that I'm simply too stoopid to post on the interwebs and need to Stop Right Now!...I'll just move on to the next shiny object that catches my eye.

It's the process of getting to that outcome that's the entertaining part for me, and that's why it becomes terribly frustrating for people like you that actually have a vested interest in the result.

For example:

"I know the games you make appeal to many people and they are rewarding you for it with continued purchases. I didn't think that was going to happen, but here we are 7 years later and it looks like you've got yourself into a comfortable groove in an environment which is notoriously unstable. That's great for you and those other people, but not really good for me. Why? Because you went in a different direction than I would have liked and so I'm not on board with your current products. It doesn't make you wrong and me right, it just makes me left out.

If there were a couple other companies out there that I think could pull off the sort of product I'd like, then I'd not be wasting my time posting here. But, sadly, there's few people interested in making wargames at all and the majority of them don't seem capable or willing to make the sorts of games I would like. Which means my hopes of having another CMBO type experience pretty much rest on you guys making it happen. The thing is, I feel strongly that if you made such a game you'd find more rewards await you than you can find with your current product lines. That would be, in both our books, a win-win situation."**

Then you would proceed to describe the sort of game, be it tablet or desktop, that you envision. At which point we might have a discussion about game philosophy instead of me having to hammer your flawed assumptions, theories, and factually flawed conclusions.

You know, had we been sitting down face to face, that's probably very close to how this would've played out. I'm not going to claim I have a different persona on the internet, but I definitely do things differently on the internet. I could have simply emailed you the list of issues, proposed improvements and changes I'd like to see too, but what's the fun in that? (*see below)

No, it's the logical outgrowth of your own hardened logic cycle. We only have an incentive to do something very different if there's a demonstrated demand for it in excess of our current path. Market forces are very much in play. So you have two choices:

1. Hope that our products fail so that we have to try something new (which you hope is more to your liking).

2. Hope that we determine that, as good as our current products are, we could do better with something new (which you hope is more to your liking).

Based on your repeated negative commentary about the products we are making, including the inflammatory first post you made, if I were a betting man I'd have to guess that your mindset is more inline with the first way of thinking than the second one.

Steve

** after several pages I think I've distilled your point down to what I just wrote, but in a form that doesn't dig itself into a hole in the process. If I've got your point wrong, try your own hand at it. Who knows, you might find that we're not very far apart when you stop obligating me to respond to the other stuff.

You're both right and wrong. We probably really aren't very far apart at all, but my mindset is 100% on the second of the choices if you switch the word "new" to "changed" (or improved if you will). Seeing as I didn't convey that in a well reasoned discussion (boring), instead typing a number of paragraphs of "Springer" (I like that!) type garbage (not so boring) I can understand why you'd think it's number 1.

And I'm still pretty sure you're not posting because you feel obligated to. Like I said before, you're posting here because you want to be posting here. Where else would you have the opportunity to speak of how your vision has proven to be successful? Where else would you get to reinforce the decisions you've made, in public? Where else would you get to crush an insufferable, illogical, Canuck who dared to challenge you and your corporate strategy? Where else would you have this much fun? :) There's a very good reason neither you or I took this to email (*see above), it's because this is The Internet, and we're enjoying some of what it has to offer. And in your case, this is good for business too.

Hav, let's keep the snark out of this. Otherwise it will get locked.

That wasn't too snarky (snarkful?) was it? I deleted most of the real meat before posting because I know you're not a fan of the lock. Besides, if he wants to act like a ****** then a wee snark should be not just condoned, but encouraged...no? And yes, I'm fully aware that particular knife cuts both ways. ;)

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Been a busy week, so back with just a brief comment or two.

I prefer more straight forward discussions to theatrics. The purpose of these forums is to exchange ideas and to discuss issues that could benefit us all. Time sent on pageantry and drama has the opposite effect.

The world is a rather nasty place when it comes to sustained ability to express creative visions that aren't cheap to bring into the world. Nobody is more frustrated by the constraints of time and money than me. I've got dozens of game designs sitting gathering dust. Heck, I've probably got hundreds of features thought out for CMx2 that will likely never see the light of day. Sadly, the number of hours in the day and the amount of money available is not magically proportional to creative whims. Which means we need to stick with what works. So far CMx2 and CMT are working just fine.

Steve

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  • 2 weeks later...

Been a slow day, so....Here I Am!! :)

Been a busy week, so back with just a brief comment or two.

I prefer more straight forward discussions to theatrics. The purpose of these forums is to exchange ideas and to discuss issues that could benefit us all. Time sent on pageantry and drama has the opposite effect.

Aaaahahahahahahahaha{snort}hahahahahaha.

That's mildly humorous. Anyhoo...

As I keep saying...anytime you simply want a "serious discussion" just drop me a line. We can save the internet for your business and my entertainment purposes that way.

The world is a rather nasty place when it comes to sustained ability to express creative visions that aren't cheap to bring into the world. Nobody is more frustrated by the constraints of time and money than me. I've got dozens of game designs sitting gathering dust. Heck, I've probably got hundreds of features thought out for CMx2 that will likely never see the light of day. Sadly, the number of hours in the day and the amount of money available is not magically proportional to creative whims. Which means we need to stick with what works. So far CMx2 and CMT are working just fine.

Steve

Wow. This really is just like Springer! :D After you've had your way with the mouth breathers on stage to the delight of the audience, you roll out an insightful and heartfelt monologue about the travails of life. Nicely done!

You definitely should have locked it at that point though. Would have been the perfect amount of dramatic flair just before the credits rolled.

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  • 2 weeks later...
You guys should be ashamed. You toss out a mobilized half hearted "game" with shiny graphics that is pretty much guaranteed to sell on name recognition alone, and then simply abandon it. What a waste. In a year full of fantastic ports and AAA titles being released on mobile to great acclaim, I can't believe this embarrassment hasn't been pulled and this forum flushed to remove all trace that it ever existed.

Might be time to rethink that position on mobile gaming perhaps? Or will the next CM game be a freemium match 3 to better fit with Battlefront's idea of what people are still playing on tablets these days?

Would you pay $55 for Combat Mission on a tablet? Because most people wouldn't. But that's pretty much the only way for Battlefront to survive. They tossed this cheap game out there on the whim that it might bring some extra players to purchase the real game. It isn't meant to be, or priced as, a long-term fully-supported masterpiece of a game.

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But be careful what you ask for... it might mean that we abandon historical warfare games, since if one wants to reach the stars one would be a fool to design a ship that best case can make it to the moon.

Steve

So I'm taking this particular statement as Steve's oblique hint that we will indeed see a CM:SL, "Space Lobsters of Doom" module, and that all our years of waiting have not been in vain.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hehe. I like the fact that even the admins (Steve= Steve Grammont?) engage with their custommers like this. Shows dedication and more importantly it shows why the public company form really is overvalued as the prime way to run a business, both for its own sake and for the economy. It just never gets as personal and the dedication never really is there if you haven't built up the thing yourself and own it yourself.

After reading through parts of this thread I can almost compare it like a fight between the founder of a company and a powerfull stock owner that actually in this case owns no stock.

Other Peoples money, anyone? (It's a film).

But the difference here (and you must've seen the film) is that the founder has managed to keep the fans along and continue the develop from a copper cable company to a fiber company while the stock owner wants to go back because he believes there is a market for his kind.

I must admit though that reading up on this title I thought it wasn't ever going to work. But that's because I don't believe a model like this doesn't fit small screens with low multi-touch capabilities and a budget lower than the original titles. Frankly I would like to have seen a more arcade like version.

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