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Catacol Highlander

AoD Ladder: Questions and Issues

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I can imagine a situation where Germany made a successful Sealion early and later the Allies land in France coming from USA directly and hold Paris at the end of the game but not London.

What about victory conditions in this case?

Thats only an example that just came to my mind.

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Another thing about victory conditions: how in hell (sorry) should the Allies hold Chungking for a 1 point victory at the end of a game?

So far I had not a single AOD game, even when the Allies win, where Chungking was not controlled by the Japanese after 1942 at the latest. And how should the Allies reconquer it once fallen?

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Allies need to have a successful campaign in Burma. From there Chungking can be retaken. Either that, or a big Red Army offensive into mainland China. It is all about balance across the 7 years of conflict...

Of course might be easier just to go for the 4 capitals!

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Given weather and the terrain in Burma/Southwest China, an offensive from India to Chungking would be a Very difficult undertaking, and Japs could delay such an operation very easily and with minimal forces.

Did YOU ever conduct such an operation, and if yes, was it successful?

For the Soviets going down through China to Chungking, okay, but then the capture of the four AXis capitals would be easier indeed.

My point is:

A 1 point victory for Allies seems harder to achieve than a 2 point victory, because of just Chungking.

Thats a bit odd.

1 point victory would mainly be a defensive victory with only taking back or hold respectively Paris, Moscow, Manila , Delhi and Canberra.

Retaking Chungking would imply holding on to Delhi anyway.

What about changing the condition to: Canberra OR Manila OR Chungking.

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That's an interesting idea. Yes - I have seen Chungking under assault from the allies. The best way of achieving it is preserving some of the Chinese army in the hills west of Chungking and then sending Brit forces through Thailand. The Jap player can certainly deploy to halt this, but in so doing probably opens the door in Manchuria. So it is all about coordination and planning. If the USN also attacks at the same time through Indonesia then the Jap air force is stretched in all directions.

I am not convinced that this is harder than taking the 4 capitals. To commit properly to taking out Berlin is a major undertaking and to do it while also preparing to assault Tokyo and Seoul will take some considerable skill. I think that a plan that only takes the allies as far as Paris in the West but incorporates a hit on Chungking as well as Manila in the Pacific feels more possible to me. But I will mull it over tonight. We have games getting underway, so if I am going to make a change I will do it in the next 24 hours.

Whatever the decision players will have equal numbers of games as both allies and axis, so the playing field is level and fair.

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Thats okay, and I dont doubt the fairness, and furthermore, I dont care much for winning or loosing.

But I think these victory conditions force the Allied player to choose relatively early between a 1 or 2 point victory as they require different strategies.

An Axis player just has to play to win, if his bid for world conquest goes wrong, he can try to survive for 1 point.

IMHO its not the same for the Allied player.

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What is the ladder administrators position on using old "perfect" Axis opening turns instead of playing a new opening turn for every new game?

I now have gotten two Axis opening turns which were over 1 week and over a month old respectively.

These guys either were too lazy to play a new starting turn, or they consider these old turns to be perfect.

IMHO that should not be allowed.

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In the panzerliga ladder this was allowed unless Poland will fall on turn one,

which I think is not possible in AoD.

I don't think anybody will send out a first turn which was bad.

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Poland on first turn is possible.

Didnt achieve it yet myself, but have seen it done against me more than once.

If the first turn would be played on tcp online, you wouldnt have the chance to do it as often as possible until it suits you.

From second turn on this would be reloading and cheating.

So you think its ok for the first turn?

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I don't think anybody will send out a first turn which was bad.

You will not have a great advance for Poland on first turn cause you need to take all units for do this. I tend to finish Poland on turn 3 or 4 cause you could easily finish the Low Countries in 1939 too then.

Thus I have no problem for Poland on turn 1.

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Poland can indeed fall on turn 1 - and it doesnt require all units. My opponent did it to me in the tourney - a "saved" turn? Armour was still able to advance west on that first turn.

I am very much against using a saved turn like that. My preference if it were possible would be for every game to start by TCP therefore making a saved turn 1 impossible. Any turn 1 received with a date of over a day old should be returned to sender with my approval. A cunning way to prevent your opponent from seeing the date of a file is to send it unzipped. If the file is zipped then its original file attributes are retained and you can see the date that the game was created. If it is not zipped then sending it by email makes it very hard to find out the creation date - at least I cant do it and I am moderately capable. So insist that the turn be zipped so that you can check its creation date. However even that wont stop a player from starting up a game 10 times over looking for the best turn 1. Not every player is honourable.

Guess what format my tourney save game 1 arrived in... Unzipped.

It is worth being aware of just how potent a saved turn 1 leading to a good destruction of Poland can be. My tourney opponent who took out Poland in 1 turn then took out France in March 1940 because very good weather followed the end of Poland in one hit - and games like this leads to an easy axis position in the Med throughout 1940 and really puts the allies in trouble.

So my wish would be that all players start fresh.

In fact my REAL wish would be that somehow Hubert made the 1 turn destruction of Poland impossible - but that's not my call.

For those aware of the Japanese fast move in behind Chengchow - that will be removed in the next patch. Also done to me in the tourney and it wrecks the Chinese position instantly and very much not part of the game as intended.

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Apparently I have been fortunate because to the best of my knowledge I have not experienced saved file. However I totally agree that saved file in not in the spirit of fun, competitive and honorable play. Speaking of honorable, I believe I am an honorable player but I was aware of Chengchow gambit and did use in this ladder. Unlike saved files I thought gambit was a creative move within 1.02. However if the ladder administrator wishes that gambit not be used I request a statement to all participants and I would be happy to offer my opponent a restart.

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Clause - no problem on the Chengchow gambit: its possible in the game at present. However I was just saying that I think it was not supposed to be possible, hence why it will be removed in the next patch. I'm a bit annoyed with myself for not spotting that I could have played the move myself!

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Clausewitz: You offer me a restart? Because you used the Chengchow gambit? IMHO the Chengchow position is undefendable anyway. I couldnt care less if an opponent uses the gambit.

By the way, several people had the idea before steel, I have seen it in games quite often. ;-)

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Clausewitz: By the way, I agree on Rome and victory conditions. But what if Axis takes Egyptand Middle East aditionally to your capture of Spain? That would seal the Med and pretty much secure Rome.

You didnt defend Libya at all, let alone attack Egypt. So the situation in our game is hardly surprising.

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Something needs changed altogether in Japan/China. One thing the game does not take into consideration enough with Japan is their logistics were a mess and not really able to go to much into the mountains. Not too mention that aircraft carrier can decimate the Chinese early on. Perhaps a trade off of sort would be less carriers available in the early stage with perhaps an extra bomber to compensate. Something just to mention is Japan can be devastating to the Allied cause if played right, but can not really win the war on its own.

Al fyi I did not and have never used saved games. However I will admit to 2 tries before sending to you to open up. 1st/2nd try both took Poland and my odds of doing it are above 50% when going for it 1st turn. Reason I restarted was I messed up the Japan opening the 1st time being my 1st go at the 1st turn enclosure. Reality as Amona states it is not 100% needed to take Poland 1st turn if the axis use their units better on turn

I also believe their is the right combination to take Poland in 2 turns and start Low Countries on turn 3 before wheeling all troops around to help with France

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Hi Tracy

My earlier post was too aggressive - I apologise for making references to our game in a negative way. No offence intended. The Chengchow move is possible so within the game. Knocking out Poland frequently does not happen on turn 1... but it is unrealistic to expect players to go with their very first attempt at turn 1 if it is a disaster - so in that respect my thoughts are a waste of effort. TCP turn 1s would be great - but also unrealistic with time zone issues.

Enjoying the game even though you are ahead!

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Hi Al,

No offense taken:). Early moves can be critical and should not be allowed at times you are correct and should be changed. Does not help you so far in our games is the weather but time will tell with that and the games.

You already made up some ground in your move through the mountains south of Paotow as I was content with the rest of my China defense until then.

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