While we are waiting

[poesel]

poesel71....'only criminals have arms' IMHO a good thing because then the criminal knows I don't have one and won't shoot at me out of fear.....

poesel71,

I lost track over many years of how many unarmed gun shot victims I have sent to the operating room or morgue.

Ok, I should better have said: 'since I don't have a gun the criminal won't need one, either'.

I sometimes think about if I need to protect my house better against thieves. But it has never occurred to me to think about if I could get shot while being robbed. Really.

But if everyone around me would have a gun I would want one, too. A literal arms race! This makes the whole US gun discussion look totally insane from the outside. Without guns no one gets shot. You may get clubbed or knifed or poisoned instead. But this is all more difficult to do than shooting someone. The answer that even more guns would help prevent these crimes is, well, actually comedy, isn't it?

I'm well aware that getting the US into the state of 'no one has guns' is practically impossible. So wanting to have a gun seems to make sense in the given circumstances. But the thing as a whole doesn't.

[sburke]

Ok, I should better have said: 'since I don't have a gun the criminal won't need one, either'.

I sometimes think about if I need to protect my house better against thieves. But it has never occurred to me to think about if I could get shot while being robbed. Really.

But if everyone around me would have a gun I would want one, too. A literal arms race! This makes the whole US gun discussion look totally insane from the outside. Without guns no one gets shot. You may get clubbed or knifed or poisoned instead. But this is all more difficult to do than shooting someone. The answer that even more guns would help prevent these crimes is, well, actually comedy, isn't it?

I'm well aware that getting the US into the state of 'no one has guns' is practically impossible. So wanting to have a gun seems to make sense in the given circumstances. But the thing as a whole doesn't.

Interestingly enough it is the subject of an article in the American Journal of Medicine- a known liberal hotbed.

My highlight

http://news.yahoo.com/more-guns-equal-more-deaths-study-finds-130400565.html

Places with higher gun ownership rates also have higher firearms-related deaths, a new study finds.

In the study, published today (Sept. 20) in the American Journal of Medicine, researchers analyzed gun ownership rates, crime rates and deaths from firearms across 27 developed countries around the world. "The U.S. has the highest gun ownership rates and also has the highest rate of firearm-related deaths," said study co-author Dr. Sripal Bangalore, a cardiologist at the New York University School of Medicine. Despite the prevalence of high-profile mass shootings, such as the recent Navy shipyard shooting, where the attacker showed signs of mental illness, the prevalence of mental illness in a society is only weakly correlated with gun-related deaths.

Contentious issue

Gun rights advocates argue that having more guns in society makes people safer by deterring crime and allowing law-abiding citizens to defend themselves against would-be attackers. Gun control proponents argue that guns lead to more violence, not less. Past studies have shown that gun owners are much likelier to be shot with their own weapons than they are to use it to thwart a crime. Other research has shown that gun laws are linked with lower rates of firearms deaths. But teasing apart causal factors can be difficult: After all, more people may feel compelled to purchase a gun in a crime-ridden neighborhood, but that doesn't mean the guns themselves cause the violence. And states that pass gun control measures may simply have different cultures than those that enshrine gun rights in their laws.

Cross-country analysis

After several high profile shootings, such as the Newtown, Conn., school shootings, Bangalore and his colleagues wanted to see whether guns actually make people safer, or whether inadequately treated mental health issues played a role. The team looked at the fraction of people who owned guns across 27 developed nations, including the United States, Switzerland, Finland, Australia and Japan. Gun ownership was lowest in Japan and highest, by far, in the United States. Gun ownership rates were strongly correlated with higher death rates from firearms.

In contrast, the incidence of major depression was only weakly linked to firearms-related deaths. (Data on other conditions such as schizophrenia were not widely available.) And crime didn't seem to be correlated at all with gun ownership rates. That suggests purchasing a gun doesn't have an effect on overall crime rates, which include both violent and non-violent crimes. "We can show that guns don't make a nation safer," Bangalore told LiveScience. The study "provides some very convincing evidence that firearms-related deaths are very strongly correlated with prevalence of guns," said Dr. Eric Fleegler, a health services researcher at Boston Children's Hospital, who was not involved in the study.

Causation difficult

Still, it's difficult to say that gun ownership actually causes more gun violence. The current study lumped together suicides and homicides. And countries are very different. "There are many factors that could influence both gun ownership and homicide rates," said Dr. Michael Siegel, a community health researcher at Boston University School of Public Health, who has separately found that states with more guns have higher murder rates.

One clue for causality comes from Australia, where tighter restrictions on gun ownership were instituted in 1996 and gun-related deaths fell dramatically, Bangalore said. But the only way to untangle the links between gun ownership and violence is to do studies that track both over time, and that research has been limited because the Centers for Diseases Control and Prevention and the National Institutes of Health don't fund gun violence research, Siegel told LiveScience.

[Mord]

This thread should've never been allowed to go on this long, all it does is cause division and anger. Who gives a f***? We are all here for CM and WWII. There are a million places we can argue about Politics. BFC should be a haven FROM it. I would've never even waded in with my smartass comments if this hadn't started out on the main CMBN boards. I don't agree with the Leftist anti gun crowd and never will, just like they aren't gonna agree with me...so what's the point? People are gonna end up walking away all angry at each other when our main purpose here is Combat Mission and our love for it. The thing that actually unites us shouldn't be marred by idiotic arguing that has absolutely nothing to do with why we are here.

Lock this abortion up (no offense para) and lets get back to talking modding, scenario design, and game play.

Mord.

[Childress]

So yeah Jason essentially feels Blacks and Latins have some deterministic genetic propensity to violence driven by their sex drive. It is bigotry clothed in some BS social dogma. It is racism make no mistake with not a shred of science to it.

You're being unfair to JasonC, I think. He flirted with biological determinism in his post but didn't actually assert that some groups are born with a 'crime gene'- a preposterous idea in my opinion. I'm not a fan of 'studies- they're either grinding an ax or confirming common sense, but one, based on the prison population determined that the prime cause of delinquency was the absence of a father. Whites and Blacks prisoners had precisely the same crime stats when screened using that control factor. The welfare state rendered fathers financially superfluous. And Blacks are disproportionately clients of that system.

[sburke]

You're being unfair to JasonC, I think. He flirted with biological determinism in his post but didn't actually assert that some groups are born with a 'crime gene'- a preposterous idea in my opinion. I'm not a fan of 'studies- they're either grinding an ax or confirming common sense, but one, based on the prison population determined that the prime cause of delinquency was the absence of a father. Whites and Blacks prisoners had precisely the same crime stats when screened using that control factor. The welfare state rendered fathers financially superfluous. And Blacks are disproportionately clients of that system.

I actually had hoped I had read it wrong and originally abstained from replying to it. However unfortunately while he never used the word Gene, he certainly implied it. I think your example is a good one for showing the issue is a lot more complex.

Not that it matters, Mord is right. This really isn't going anywhere and isn't the place for this anyway. Yes I say that as a total sop so that Mord doesn't deny me the pleasure of more unit icons. Yes I am completely craven when it comes to my CM mods.

Mord feel free to use that in your sig.

[agusto]

You're being unfair to JasonC, I think. He flirted with biological determinism in his post but didn't actually assert that some groups are born with a 'crime gene'- a preposterous idea in my opinion.

I actually had hoped I had read it wrong and originally abstained from replying to it. However unfortunately while he never used the word Gene, he certainly implied it. I think your example is a good one for showing the issue is a lot more complex.

Interesting - i interpreted his post as making cultural differences between people of different ethnic backgrounds responsible for the increased crime-rate among non-white americans. Some cultures tend do solve social problems with violence more often than others, independent of peoples genes - hence JasonCs assumption that coloured people who came to america imported their more violent cultural heritage. Or - from another point of view - the increased crime rate in non-white americans could be a heritage from the years of racial segregation.

[Buzz]

.... I would've never even waded in with my smartass comments if this hadn't started out on the main CMBN boards. ....

Lock this abortion up (no offense para) and lets get back to talking modding, scenario design, and game play.

Mord.

I seldom ever look off the main boards but oops... there it was... pushed my start button from years of experiences in medicine saving many victims and watching many real people die in my hands from gun violence. My "close encounters" ... close to being shot are difficult to forget....so I jumped in.

I stand by my convictions. Sorry if my comments offended anyone.

Mord is right. No resolution / conversion will occur here.

"If you want peace then prepare for war in Combat Mission X2 and beyond" - Ancient Roman maxim

[Buzz]

I just noticed my post # 666... The Devil you say...

War Movie Mode ON and...

Sorry... Friday afternoon... I could not resist 

[cool breeze]

sburke,

I think you misunderstood JasonC's meaning. I think he was just responding to the assertion that there America isn't exceptional. I don't think he was making any moral statements about the right and wrong of things in our history, I think he was simply stating facts about our unique history in the world. Some people seem to think its just arrogance to talk about America being different. "We are all people and we all have history too!" or somesuch. But a countries history causes it to be what it is. Zimbabwe and Russia are different because they both have different history. American history makes it different that any other country in very important ways. JasonC was kind enough to remind our forum friends of some of the most important of those differences.

And sorry to take your quote a little out of context, but "The reality is guns add nothing to American democracy. Never did." is not up to par with your usual posting quality. I mean the American people (or some of them anyway) took our independence and sovereign authority from the King and Parliament with guns (which changed the world). Before that colonies were taken by the settlers from the Indians with guns. After that Americans took the rest of America with guns. I'm pretty sure that all of our land is a pretty is a pretty important thing to have added to American democracy. The human side of it is all the people saved by guns; those help the democracy.

warning I wrote god a lot of times in this, if it helps imagine all of those to be replaced by "church" or "religion"

Before our revolutionary war the rulers of nations were considered to be God's supreme secular authority in their domain; appointed by God and supposed to be responsible for following and enforcing God's laws. The revolution manifested the idea that the people were actually the ones with the divine authority. But the people don't all use this divine authority themselves so much as by consenting to let others do it in their stead. And this isn't their consent like voting, its consent like not rebelling. It wasn't a democracy like we think of today, only a small percentage was allowed to vote. So its kind of a power gives you authority kind of deal, instead of the other way around. Like the monarchs worked for god and was given authority and responsibility by god. While the new American leaders were given authority by the consent of the governed. So as long as the leaders keep our consent, they have the authority. But that makes them the authority without any responsibility to follow gods law only to keep the peoples consent. People used to "discover" law, now we "make" law. Might makes right and the people are the mightiest, or whomever wields them.

I was trying to get across a deep point that wasn't really about religion even tho I wrote god a lot. Wasn't up to the task I'm afraid.

Dude you are so far out there it is kind of scary. Manifest Destiny was a BS excuse for theft in the 19th century and is no more legit when you express it now. So basically your whole underpinning to being anti gun control is "We are the biggest bad asses and we can do what we want cause we have the guns/power. We stole this continent at the point of a gun, we then went on to put the world under our thumb and somehow distributed democracy". Tell that bit of BS in the Philippines. Earlier you mentioned how many people we saved from concentration camps-that wouldn't include the folks that we put in them I assume.

from Wikipedia

Concentration camps

Filipino villagers were forced into concentration camps called reconcentrados which were surrounded by free-fire zones, or in other words “dead zones.” Furthermore, these camps were overcrowded and filled with disease, causing the death rate to be extremely high. Conditions in these “reconcentrados” are generally acknowledged to have been inhumane. Between January and April 1902, 8,350 prisoners of approximately 298,000 died. Some camps incurred death rates as high as 20 percent. "One camp was two miles by one mile (3.2 by 1.6 km) in area and 'home' to some 8,000 Filipinos. Men were rounded up for questioning, tortured, and summarily executed."[96]

In Batangas Province, where General Franklin Bell was responsible for setting up a concentration camp, a correspondent described the operation as “relentless.” General Bell ordered that by December 25, 1901, the entire population of both Batangas Province and Laguna Province had to gather into small areas within the “poblacion” of their respective towns. Barrio families had to bring everything they could carry because anything left behind—including houses, gardens, carts, poultry and animals—was to be burned by the U.S. Army. Anyone found outside the concentration camps was shot. General Bell insisted that he had built these camps to "protect friendly natives from the insurgents, assure them an adequate food supply" while teaching them "proper sanitary standards." The commandant of one of the camps referred to them as the "suburbs of Hell."

Stick to being a grog, your rose tinted glasses distort your view too much to be objective about America. The reality is guns add nothing to American democracy. Never did. Whether it be the Pinkertons or MacArthur in DC, guns have only ever helped the status quo and if you get out of line and have a gun, they just shoot your a**. Your average citizen with a gun is not going to overthrow anyone no matter how much it strokes their ego.

One of the best examples of democracy in the US was the civil rights movement and it's success was primarily due to the non violent portion of that movement.

I particularly liked this part.

It turned human beings loose on a sparsely populated continent with more freedom to do whatever they heck they felt like than anything seen before in human history. And in 2 centuries, it turned 3 million poor farmers in a colonial backwater into the greatest power in world history, on the back of a gusher of achievement in economic vitality, invention, practical building, voluntary cooperation taking ever deeper forms.

Let's just ignore it also included genocide and institutionalized slavery on a scale that even made Britain blush. Yep them poor farmers through plain old hard work just made us great. If everybody would just do what we did....

PS you may want to take some history courses. American Democracy didn't develop in a vacuum or spontaneously. Hint- google Magna Carta

Again returning to Wikipedia- really this stuff isn't hard to find!

Three clauses currently remain part of the law of England and Wales, however, and it is generally considered part of the uncodified constitution. Lord Denning described it as "the greatest constitutional document of all times – the foundation of the freedom of the individual against the arbitrary authority of the despot".[3] In a 2005 speech, Lord Woolf described it as the "first of a series of instruments that now are recognised as having a special constitutional status",[4] the others being the Habeas Corpus Act (1679), the Petition of Right (1628), the Bill of Rights (1689), and the Act of Settlement (1701).

Perception in America The document is also honoured in America, where it is an antecedent of the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights. In 1957, the American Bar Association erected the Runnymede Memorial.[115] In 1976, the UK lent one of four surviving originals of the 1215 Magna Carta to the U.S. for its bicentennial celebrations, and also donated an ornate case to display it. The original was returned after one year, but a replica and its case are still on display in the U.S. Capitol Crypt in Washington, D.C.[116]

[db_zero]

I agree this is one of those very controversial subjects that generates plenty of fireworks, but its been fairly mild. I was surprised myself when I clicked on it the first time and saw it. I said to myself woah!!!!

I have friends from Canada who are just mortified when they see my mini arsenal. My sister hates guns and gave me a lecture when I sent my niece and nephew back home as converts.

Never say never about someone changing their stripes. I know a good looking female who hated guns, but when she was stalked she changed quickly and wanted to borrow one of mine for protection and piece of mind.

I still believe that when the Hayward fault slips and the big one hits the liberal bay area many will change their views if things get out of hand.

[Childress]

American Hispanics, despite their rep as a 'traditional values' group, have high rates of single parent homes, illegitimacy and abortions. They're prominent recipients of welfare programs, food stamps, etc. Fathers are often absent though the problem is not as severe as in the black family. So, their crime rates sit between blacks and white. Young males often join gangs in both groups.

My former wife is half-African, half-French. She said that the prison population in France is overwhelmingly composed of young Muslim immigrants (Caucasians). Something on the order of 80%. Like American blacks, French Muslims access the French welfare system at high rates. Blacks tend to keep a low profile in France; their appearance on the crime sheets is on a par with whites.

[JasonC]

sburke - there is no "we" and no "our" about any of it.

All the justice you have ever known was given to you by armed American men. Using rifles abroad or handguns at home. With trivial exceptions for our allies and the British sources of our own traditions, the same is true of the entire world today.

Your dumb ingraditude is simply irrelevant; we are not asking for your permission for any of it. Never have, never will.

[sburke]

sburke - there is no "we" and no "our" about any of it.

All the justice you have ever known was given to you by armed American men. Using rifles abroad or handguns at home. With trivial exceptions for our allies and the British sources of our own traditions, the same is true of the entire world today.

Your dumb ingraditude is simply irrelevant; we are not asking for your permission for any of it. Never have, never will.

That grade school response is beneath you. And you are wrong. Though I am white, I consider the civil rights movement to be one of the culminating moments of the realization of our highest ideals- and that was primarily non violent.

Armed force rarely brings justice, just a new breed of despots. America has played that role often enough for anyone with even one iota of knowledge about our history. Does that make us any worse than any one else - nope. It however also means we aren't so much better than everyone else as you seem to feel. I think you've read one too many Superman comic books.

[para]

This thread should've never been allowed to go on this long, all it does is cause division and anger. Who gives a f***? We are all here for CM and WWII. There are a million places we can argue about Politics. BFC should be a haven FROM it. I would've never even waded in with my smartass comments if this hadn't started out on the main CMBN boards. I don't agree with the Leftist anti gun crowd and never will, just like they aren't gonna agree with me...so what's the point? People are gonna end up walking away all angry at each other when our main purpose here is Combat Mission and our love for it. The thing that actually unites us shouldn't be marred by idiotic arguing that has absolutely nothing to do with why we are here.

Lock this abortion up (no offense para) and lets get back to talking modding, scenario design, and game play.

Mord.

No offence taken Mord. I have intentionally removed myself from the discussion even though I started it. I would also like to see the thread locked quick sharp.

[JonS]

there would be no gun violence in America... would there?

Seriously? That's you logic? If it isn't 100% successful, don't bother?

Best you repeal the murder laws then. And end the war(?) on terror. And do away with theft laws. And rape laws. And assault laws. Fraud, that's gone too. Actually, just rip all the laws, policies, and programmes since none of them work 100%.

Exceptional idjits.

[JonS]

I agree. If only Chicago had some of the strictest gun laws in the country, this would've never have happened.

Well then it's lucky that there's no way that weapons can be freely moved from other parts of the country then, isn't it. Oddly enough, sticking your finger in one part of a collapsing dam has never worked.

Exceptional idjits.

[JasonC]

sburke - look up what integrating a school in Little Rock actually involved sometime. Hint - it wasn't a sit in. There is justice only where just men rule. With guns in their hands. Men who both know they are free and see such freedom as the highest end. And see such freedom for others as no intrusion on their own.

As for my comments about "us" and "we" not applying between you and me, if you are too dense to follow them I will spell it out. You and I do not belong to the same political grouping in any way. I am not your ally, you are not my equal, we have nothing in common. My freedom exists in complete contempt of anything you have ever or ever will, say think or do. There is no "we" between or above us. You do not speak for me or anything related to me in any way.

[JonS]

There is justice only where just men rule. With guns in their hands.

lollipop cocopuffs.

You should be proud: That used to be a term reserved exclusively for Kettler's insane ramblings.

[Mord]

Exceptional idjits.

I won't hold it against you, Jon. We've went down this road a thousand times back when there was a political forum. I know you still love me.

Mord.

[Mord]

No offence taken Mord. I have intentionally removed myself from the discussion even though I started it. I would also like to see the thread locked quick sharp.

LOL Didn't see the hornets nest, huh?

Mord.

[costard]

sburke - there is no "we" and no "our" about any of it.

All the justice you have ever known was given to you by armed American men. Using rifles abroad or handguns at home. With trivial exceptions for our allies and the British sources of our own traditions, the same is true of the entire world today.

Your dumb ingraditude is simply irrelevant; we are not asking for your permission for any of it. Never have, never will.

JasonC, You can more readily justify the argument that all injustice experienced was delivered by the same group of men. Your argument is thereby rendered semantically null and your claim to intellect doubtful. However, given that the 'Merkins are world renowned for sending themselves up (definitely exceptional), maybe we should - oh, ok, you. Alone.

Adult discussions require the willing participation of adults.

[para]

LOL Didn't see the hornets nest, huh?

Mord.

lol no i did not

[db_zero]

lol no i did not

Think of this the same way you would in a bar at 2:00am with soccer fans from 2 opposing teams that hate one another who had too much to drink.

[para]

Think of this the same way you would in a bar at 2:00am with soccer fans from 2 opposing teams that hate one another who had too much to drink.

Oh I am

[db_zero]

It may be hard for many overseas to understand the depth of feeling and emotions around this subject in the states. Many Sheriffs and Law enforcement personnel have openly stated they have no intentions of enforcing new gun laws.

Privately many are not going to enforce or comply. The urban LE probably will, but outside the liberal urban areas things are openly hostile.

From what I understand when the government in Australia demanded citizens turn in their weapons the people complied. If that were demanded in America I have little doubt that would spark a civil war. Many states and rural areas would openly defy Washington and I would not be 100% certain the military and LE would be 100% behind any radical attempt to enforce. Many military and LE personnel come from areas where the gun culture is firmly entrenched and many are sympathetic to the gun culture.

Already the talk of more gun control saw millions of new people flock to the NRA and other gun groups. The gun stores saw guns flying off the shelves and there is still a shortage of ammunition as people are buying and hoarding ammo. Even today you will see places like Walmart out of ammo. I've stood in line for 3 hours with plenty of company on numerous occasions waiting for the truck to be unloaded so I could buy as much ammo as they would let me. There is little question many homes have become mini ammo dumps as people are stockpiling ammo.

I know people who are not real gun enthusiasts buy AR-15's, Glocks and other guns like they were going out of style. Today there was an article that gun stores near where the shooting this week took place are seeing a big uptick in sales.

There is a lot of truth to the statement that Obama and the liberals are the best gun salemen in the world. Every time they open their mouths guns and ammo sales spike. 2 representatives in Colorado who voted for new gun restrictions were just recalled and tossed out of office. Many democratic (Same party as Obama) reps openly opposed Obama and the anti gun folks as they come from areas where they know the voters will revolt if they even hint at going along with Obama. Those who have I would wager will be voted out next election cycle.