While we are waiting

[JonS]

I live in a state that has very strict gun control and the city I lived in has very strict gun control laws and many gun free zones. Yet the murder rate has sky rocketed and gun crime is rampant. ... I can agree that in Europe, Asia and Canada gun control works, but America is a different case.

Oddly enough, sticking your finger in one part of a collapsing dam has never worked

I really don't give a flying fig about the 13 or 14 or whatever it was people killed in Washington. That's your choice, and good luck with it. You have had plenty of time and opportunities to do something useful, and every time you, collectively, have turned your back.

However, do not come here whining about how exceptional the US. It is not exceptional in any way ... except in terms of willful blindness and stupidity. Practically every nation that has strict gun control laws, and there are plenty of example, moved there from a position of much more relaxed gun laws. All those nations made a choice, and have - pun fully intended - lived with the consequences.

There is nothing exceptional about the US in this regard, except for your willful refusal to recognise what is clearly in front of you.

[agusto]

Let me throw something into the discussion that happened just days ago in Austria, my home, wich is a country with comparably strict gun laws (at least when compared to the US): a mad hunter ran amok. He ambushed, shot and killed a total of 4 policemen of Austrias Cobra special police force on two different occasions. The regular police forces were tracking down the hunter (who legally possed several bolt action rifles) because he was illigally hunting in a district where he wasnt allowed to hunt. Because the regular police expected him to be armed, the Cobra was called. At some point during the manhunt that follwed the shootings, the hunter withdrew to his residence and killed himself after beeing besieged for over a day by 300 policemen, supported by several tanks from Austrias armed forces.

Now i think that it is good that Austria has strict gun control laws, but it is impossible to completely rule out mass shootings simply by strict gun control laws. People who want to kill will always find ways to do so (that is the downside of beeing an intelligent and creative species) but i think that gun control laws can help minimize the damage. Just look at the damage that this crazy guy did with a legally owned bolt action rifle and then imagine the carnage that could have happened if he would have been legally armed with a fully automatic weapon. You also cant argue in that case that more liberal gun laws would have prevented the tragedy: the were no civllians involved in the shootings except the shooter. The policemen were all armed and specifically trained to handle difficult situations. They just had no chance when they were ambushed during the night.

[baron Jacquinot]

Godwin's law - you lose.

and also wrong in fact, because in 1938 the German government relaxed the gun laws (as long as you weren't a Jew of course!)

I know, I just love this poster)))))))

[baron Jacquinot]

No video game will make someone go out and kill others. Unless they are mentally unwell and would kill anyway.

As for gun control. In the UK the criminals are armed and the law abiding are not. Makes no sense to me. With proper gun control i.e must have a medical and attend fire arms course plus every gun must be registered and even a bullet kept from the gun so it can be put into a database and any shootings etc the bullets marking after it being shot may match up. There are ways to sell guns and still be safe. Apparently Canada has loads of guns per head but hardly any gun crime\murders.

I suggest any one in the UK who is anti gun ownership should go live in a bad inner city area for a few years..where everyone live sin fear of the gangs..and know they have no power to use or stand up against them and the Gangs know damn well everyone is defenseless and to scared to do anything about them rule. As for the Police..they turn up AFTER a crime has happened..they also told me during my years of strife that they are powerless to really do anything anymore due to all the laws protecting the criminal, this was said to me by two policemen whilst i was taking a gang member to court. This same gang had been involved in 6 shootings over 6 months and also machetted a lad in daylight at the road where all the shops are. A fire engine stopped to help the lad..but the gang with machete in hands told them to get in the engine and f off..the firemen did as they where told. My number was up at some point...luckily after dealing with them for 8 years I managed to move. I'd felt so much safer in my own house if i had been armed..as they where. They could have burst into the house..raped my wife..robbed us and battered us and there would have been nothing I could have done that would have been effective.

This is ethnic gangs or not?

[db_zero]

Has nothing to do with American Exceptionalism. Many are simply ignorant of the long history of guns in America and the culture that has evolved around it. Attempts by some to impose their will and beliefs has fueled resentment. The recalls in Colorado is indicitive of the resentment.

For me besides the incidents involving thugs, the memory of what took place 20 years ago during the Rodney King riots is a reminder of what can take place. The LAPD formed a picket line around Rodeo Drive and other ritzy, predominantly white areas. The rest of the city was left to fend for themselves. The Korean community who were the shopowners servicing the poorer neighborhoods saw their businesses looted. After a day they armed themselves and defended their businesses and were left alone. Armed with assault rifkes, shotguns and other firearms it was clear what faced anyone who tried to loot them.

You are only a riot or natural disaster away from being forced to denend yourself.

[JasonC]

augusto - That was the act of the lowest form of liar, taking my words out of their context and pretending I said them. As my post explained in great detail, the homicide rate is fully explained (more than, in fact) by the composition of the US population. The portion of the population of the US that is just like the population of Europe has the same murder rate. But that is only 3/4 of the US population. Minority young men in the US have modestly lower murder rates than their places of origin, but that still leaves them 5 to 10 times the rate of European young men, - and a cool 230 times the rate of European women. That's all of it. Europe doesn't have the US murder rate because Europe doesn't have a US minority population making up a quarter of the populace.

[Wodin]

baron no..not ethnic..all white, but think they are gangsters living in the gheto..etc etc.

[JonS]

Has nothing to do with American Exceptionalism. Many are simply ignorant of the long history of guns in America and the culture that has evolved around it.

So in the first sentence you claim it's not American exceptionalism, then in the very next sentence you assert that it is I'm not surprised you don't see the issue. In their ignorance, many Americans don't realise that Australia has a long history of guns. And NZ. And England. And ... and ... and ...

America is not exceptional.

[JasonC]

JonS - since you and others apparently have no idea what the term even means, and can only see it as a bit of aimless boasting and through a lense of reflexive anti-Americanism, I will explain what the term means.

Citizens of the British empire and dominions may have a tradition of liberty and lots of other things in common with America, but they do not have a tradition of revolt against government, or government founded from the bottom up by popular will and choice, not from the top down by the granting of privileges to subjects. Britain certainly is the source of the liberties granted to subjects even in America - but not of the decisive break from the idea that government gives things to its citizens, to the idea that the citizens allow their government to do certain things and those only.

American exceptionalism refers to a background free individualism that creates governments as its instruments, when and where and as it pleases. It is the view that governments are human products that serve the people and can be thrown away if they fail to meet the prior, human ends of individuals. It is insurrection incarnate to all theories of state power or supremacy.

And whether you like it or not, that idea completely changed the world. It turned human beings loose on a sparsely populated continent with more freedom to do whatever they heck they felt like than anything seen before in human history. And in 2 centuries, it turned 3 million poor farmers in a colonial backwater into the greatest power in world history, on the back of a gusher of achievement in economic vitality, invention, practical building, voluntary cooperation taking ever deeper forms. Of course it all benefited from its prior endowment of British ideas of liberty, and from the ongoing industrial revolution - but if took those to places imperial Britain most definitely did not go, to say nothing of industrial Germany.

Anyone who thinks that idea is common in history simply doesn't know history. And anyone who thinks the effects of that idea were not a social earthquake on a scale only matched by the invention of writing or agriculture, also doesn't know history.

No class society exists on earth today. Every society on earth was a class society before America. Economic freedom was a privilege of a few English gentlemen in 1780 - now it is the birthright of about 90% of the human race. Tyranny and force were the normal forms of government and basis of such government almost everywhere on earth, before America. Now they are holdouts in backwaters and the tyrants live every day like those condemned to death by all mankind for their injustice. Why? America's existence challenges them to the bottom, American power concretely wrecked half of them, and they cannot compete with the dynamism of American economic activity, technology, or culture.

Most of the justice and freedom on earth came out of that change, and plenty of people all over the world still have no idea how we did it. I just told you, above, and it is truly not complicated. We didn't ask anyone's permission to be free. We just flat out took it and dare anybody to stop us.

That is what American exceptionalism means. And you are welcome.

[poesel]

Thanks to everyone that posted. That was (and is) very interesting because so I can read some unfiltered thoughts from the US. When this topic comes up around here people usually just roll their eyes and everyone is dumbfounded how the Amis can be so stupid. I have to admit I did the same several times when I read some posts.

OTOH talk about speed limits on the Autobahn and you will learn where our madness lies.

Two things to add:

'fear of the government'

The former state of Eastern Germany (DDR) was relatively the most heavily armed state in the world (counting in the army, the secret police and various other groups). The secret police was quite effective and had it's tendrils all through the population. The state had a firm grip on borders and information.

When the revolution came not one shot was fired - it just collapsed (in the end one uninformed press conference brought it down)

'only criminals have arms'

IMHO a good thing because then the criminal knows I don't have one and won't shoot at me out of fear. I may get injured to various degrees and robbed of things but at least I'm not dead.

[Childress]

IMHO a good thing because then the criminal knows I don't have one and won't shoot at me out of fear. I may get injured to various degrees and robbed of things but at least I'm not dead.

LOL, Poesel!

[db_zero]

Europeans have a long history of guns, but unless I'm mistaken nothing like a 2nd Amendment. When I lived In Europe and traveled through the Middle East and Asia I respected their laws and views on guns. I didn't go around lecturing them or trying to change them. They can choose as they please. There are those in America who would like to impose European style gun control on Americans and the response has been a restounding NO.

[BLSTK]

The bottom line would appear to be that some cultures value human life more than others.

[Buzz]

poesel71....'only criminals have arms' IMHO a good thing because then the criminal knows I don't have one and won't shoot at me out of fear.....

poesel71,

I lost track over many years of how many unarmed gun shot victims I have sent to the operating room or morgue. I can assure you is was at least multiple dozens. I was often getting the best possible perpetrator description from the victim (if conscious / possible) while doing medical intervention. Very many times I was told.... I gave him (them) all I had and they shot me anyway!

Someone earlier suggested they had a knife to fend of gun wielding assailants. Bringing a knife to a gunfight is a very poor strategy for survival. Might work in ninja movies but not in most urban streets.

To be fair compliance (just don't get in the car or on your knees) when faced with the threat of weapon is reasonable. I have used compliance to back out of weapons in my face and instructions to do XYZ.

db_zero' note of the difference in US Urban vs Rural gun culture mirrors my experience. Out in my "country" almost everyone owns and uses firearms for hunting, recreation and self / community defense. We do not have violent gun crime near our rural area primarily because criminals know we are armed and we will hit what we shoot... if we have to.

[Buzz]

The bottom line would appear to be that some cultures value human life more than others.

I value all Life. I refuse to let mine be taken from me by senseless violence.

911 call is good but betting your Life on .... a roll of the dice.

[db_zero]

The bottom line would appear to be that some cultures value human life more than others.

huh? Japan had strict gun control. In fact they did not allow most classes of subjects to carry or possess swords, yet they showed a disregard for human life in WW2. Many Islamic countries have severe gun control, yet they've demonstrated a disregard for human life.

[db_zero]

Buzz-as a law abiding gun owner who lived in a anti-gun urban area we were an oppressed class of citizens under constant attack by activists and local government. Criminals, derelicts and deadbeats would receive more support, have laws passed to protect their rights than law abiding gun owners.

I've since left the crime ridden area and its a lot different, but even so there is a movement to restrict guns which is causing a lot of rift.

I do travel 2 hours often to take intense gun training in a much more rural area. Big difference.

[Buzz]

Have never done a 3 Gun course myself but would be fun to try one. It is different in the country. Seeing guys in camouflage on ATVs on trucks with dogs.... with guns and bows in the open is not disturbing. Watching pimped out cruisers & vans circling in the city to see what is within reach is an all too often unfortunate urban experience.

[Seedorf81]

I miss something in the discussion.

Are there any documented numbers of(on?) people who own(ed) a gun and who got attacked? And how many of them responded by shooting at the perpetrator(s) without being hurt themselves?

I mean, the fact that you own and carry a gun doesn't mean that you are able to fend off an (armed) attack to you, or to people in your surroundings. There are only a few people who are trained enough, or "cool" enough, to be able to respond in a fast and sufficient way on surprise attacks.

Most people are totally dumbfounded for seconds/minutes when terror strikes..

[Cogust]

I read somewhere that it is much more likely that it is your handgun that wounds yourself or your family rather than an outsider's handgun.

[Buzz]

I miss something in the discussion.

Are there any documented numbers of(on?) people who own(ed) a gun and who got attacked? And how many of them responded by shooting at the perpetrator(s) without being hurt themselves?

I mean, the fact that you own and carry a gun doesn't mean that you are able to fend off an (armed) attack to you, or to people in your surroundings. There are only a few people who are trained enough, or "cool" enough, to be able to respond in a fast and sufficient way on surprise attacks.

Most people are totally dumbfounded for seconds/minutes when terror strikes..

Yes. Scientific literature is available. The numbers, conclusions will vary depending on the scientific rigor applied and in some cases blatant bias.

You are correct, "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.” Jeff Cooper

Training and practice, practice, practice is essential but often overlooked or never attempted. I am fortunate to be able to shoot at least once / week in my country environs yet my #1 plan is AVOID possible confrontations when possible.... and working with animals / livestock teaches you to look in control, but not threatening. Looking like a victim may just help result in becoming one.

[db_zero]

I've had one incident where 3 thugs were scarred off when they realized we were armed. I see any shooting that fits the media adgenda get headline coverage and days of intense coverage, yet there has been a couple of home invasions where the homeowner was armed and shot the intruders gets buried and hardly any coverage.

That all being said being a victim of a carjacking and armed robbery where being the law abiding citizen who followed the rules and was not armed, I agree that the intensity, surprise and shock that occur makes fighting back problimatical.

Thats why I spend so much time, effort and ammunition in training from a highly trained professional with extensive military and Law Enforcement experience and has been in numerous shootouts. He has taken what he learned and puts you through a lot of drills using live ammo in realistic situations. I have plenty of motivation to practice and learn. I've been training and studying for over 4 years. I don't plan on using it, but if I had to I have something to fall back on.

In general I'm a nice person who is non confrontational. I prefer to avoid and walk away from conflict. Unfortunately I've learned the hard way there is evil in this world and it oftentimes seeks you out. If you have to confront it its best to be well prepared.

[iMolestCats]

Training and practice, practice, practice is essential but often overlooked or never attempted. I am fortunate to be able to shoot at least once / week in my country environs yet my #1 plan is AVOID possible confrontations when possible.

Training is essential to gun ownership and defense. The biggest problem i have with people carrying is that they are virtually untrained and can possibly harm themselves or other innocents. Then there are the people who have tons of firearms and never bother to actually train with their weapons, aside from popping a few downrange ever once in a while. They would be better off just taking a handgun class or two.

[Quintus Sertorius]

From which one can conclude that it is not guns that kill people' date=' it is Americans with guns that kill people.[/quote']

This is the typical tactic of the anti-gun movement in the U.S. When confronted with evidence contradictory to their opinion, they fall back on non sequitur insult.

"So you don't care that people were killed?"

"How can you be so stupid?"

"So you don't want to change anything?"

"But everyone knows..."

[Vanir Ausf B]

I miss something in the discussion.

Are there any documented numbers of(on?) people who own(ed) a gun and who got attacked? And how many of them responded by shooting at the perpetrator(s) without being hurt themselves?

I mean, the fact that you own and carry a gun doesn't mean that you are able to fend off an (armed) attack to you, or to people in your surroundings. There are only a few people who are trained enough, or "cool" enough, to be able to respond in a fast and sufficient way on surprise attacks.

Most people are totally dumbfounded for seconds/minutes when terror strikes..

Keep in mind that for a gun, or any other weapon, to be successfully used in self defense it does not necessarily have to injure anyone. In fact, there is strong evidence that in most self-defense uses the gun is not fired. The mere sight of a gun is usually all that is required to make a person with hostile intent have a change of heart.