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Aryaman

Hotfix not working on German research

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Hi

I have noticed that the German research is still much slower than the Soviet research. As a test I run a game on hotseat without making any move, just to see how reserach developed on both sides. The Soviets were consistently outracing the Germans. By July 25 the Soviets were at 20% infantry while the Germans were still at 7%. In other fields differences were not that large, in heavy tanks 19 vs 12, in aerial warfare 17 vs 10, only in antitank the Germans outscored the Soviets 12 to 10. Germans were getting just 1% advance in infantry every turn, except one turn in which they got 2%, while the Soviets were getting no less than 3% and up to 5%. So apparently the problem with German research is still unfixed.

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I have run a second test (both have been run on the 1941 Barbarossa scenario) and I found very similar results within the normal range of random variation. The Soviets again outscored the Germans in all fields except Antitank. The Results were 19 vs 9 in infantry, 20vs12 in Hevy tanks, 19 vs 9 in aerial warfare and 12 vs 14 in antitank.

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Hey Gentlemen,

This is actually to be expected and is part of the 'catch up bonus' that applies to the research formula.

From the Global manual here is the relevant section:

The research formula also has an adjustment that takes into account real life situations that occur in every war, such as captured enemy equipment and spying and espionage. Therefore, if an opponent has achieved a higher level in a particular category, there will be a bonus applied to your chance calculation each turn. However, the normal research chance can only be increased if a level of difference exists. It can never be reduced. This bonus might be further modified by friendly and/or enemy Intelligence research advances.

* * *

All this means is that since Germany has a higher level of research already attained in several categories, Soviet advancement will be as a result a bit higher to reflect this 'catch up bonus'.

So for example, with 1 chit applied in Infantry Warfare, German research advancement will have a range of 1-3, while Soviet will be 2-5 due to the difference of Germany having one level higher.

Advancement is calculated by taking the progression and dividing it in half and then subtracting and adding it to the normal progression.

For example, normal German progression is 2% * 1 chit = 2%

2% divided in half (also rounded) which gives a value of 1%.

Lower advancement range is 2% - 2% divided by 2 = 1%

Upper advancement range is 2% + 2% divided by 2 = 3%

Advancement range = 1-3% per turn

'For the Soviets progression is (2% + 1%) * 1 chit = 3%

3% divided in half (also rounded) gives a value of 2%.

Lower advancement range is 3% - 3% divided by 2 rounded = 2%

Upper advancement range is 3% + 3% divided by 2 rounded = 5%

Advancement range = 2-5% per turn

Hope this helps,

Hubert

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I have it set in the game for max possible for both sides 100% of the time. The main 3 components I feel that are the greatest importance for both sides are infantry, armor, and fighters with production tech coming in 4th.

So I adapt the A.I. to focus on those 1st.

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I am currently playing the Barbarossa to Berlin scenario in an email match, German side. And I am wondering about the tech advance.

I understand that you can invest only one chit maximum in this scenario. From the manual I understand that to go from level 1 to level 2 (in tanks or infantry) the base is a 4% addition each turn. At least this is stated in the manual, and I can not find anything contrary to this.

The Germans have a better - or at least equal - level as the Russians, so they get no bonus there.

Inteligence for the Germans is 3, for the Russians is 1 at start. This should raise my bonus by 2%, and lower the Russian bonus by 2%. Not relevant for German research, see above. But it should lower the speed at which the Russians catch up.

So now, after 39 turns (both sides), it is about a year later. Germany hasn't had a single breakthrough. 39 times 4% is about 160%, right?* (Italy has had a breakthrough in Aerial Warfare - yay, its one air force unit is now level 2 in combat).

The Russians on the other hand have catched up in Infantry Warfare, in Heavy Tanks, and in Aerial combat (that I know of), in spite of my intelligence advantage. Is this correct?

I played the Bagration scenario recently, and in it the Germans have tech 4 in Tanks Infantry, and Aerial Combat (among others). It starts in summer '44, so to get there, the Germans need about a tech each year. As higher techs get more difficult, it looks like I can never get that level in BtoB. Again - correct?

* if it adds up till it reaches 100%. If it is a random 4% each turn, (which I think not, reading the manual), the change of not getting a breakthrough when researching a single category is about 20%, and of not getting a single breakrough while researching 7 categoies about 0.01%).

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Additional questions:

Aryaman stated that "the Soviets were at 20%, while the Germans were still at 7%". Where can you find this?

Big Al has "set it in the game at max possible for both sides". Does this mean that both sides always get the possible max advance each turn (like for the Germans the range would normally be 2-6%, now they always get 6%), or does tis mean that the AI always goes for the max research possible? (in which case it does not apply here).

The Intelligence bonus is an increase of 1% per level for your research bonus, and a decrese of 1% of your opponents research bonus (as per manual). At start of BtoB Intelligence for Germany is 3, for Russia is 1. So it should increase the research bonus of Germany with 2%, and lower the russian with 2%. Right?

So the Russian research for heavy tanks should be:

% + highest enemy level - current level +/- int bonus is

5% + 1 - 0 - 2 = 4% (or, if the int "bonus" cant make the research bonus negative, 5%).

As per above answers this isn't what happens - the russians still get a "catch up" bonus, even with the negative Intelligence bonus. What am I missing?

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I can also confirm that in a B2B game, the Russians reached tank tech 3 in the middle of '43, beating the Germans despite the Germans having had a chit constantly invested in tank tech (by the point at which the Russians had upgraded, German tech was still around 80% on level 2).

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Additional questions:

Aryaman stated that "the Soviets were at 20%, while the Germans were still at 7%". Where can you find this?

Never mind that, I found it. It seems my highest advances are at 80% (after 40 turns), so it seems I am advancing at 2% average each turn from level 1 to level 2.

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The Intelligence bonus is an increase of 1% per level for your research bonus, and a decrese of 1% of your opponents research bonus (as per manual). At start of BtoB Intelligence for Germany is 3, for Russia is 1. So it should increase the research bonus of Germany with 2%, and lower the russian with 2%. Right?

So the Russian research for heavy tanks should be:

% + highest enemy level - current level +/- int bonus is

5% + 1 - 0 - 2 = 4% (or, if the int "bonus" cant make the research bonus negative, 5%).

As per above answers this isn't what happens - the russians still get a "catch up" bonus, even with the negative Intelligence bonus. What am I missing?

Oops, intelligence is just 1% for the Germans as well. So the Russians get a 1% bonus, as wel as the one level lower tech they are researching, so they get 2% more advance each turn....(assuming they get actualy 3%/turn in research, this is unclear). As the average advance for Germans seems to be 2%/turn, the Russians will be at 4%/turn. So after 25 turns the Russians advance from level 0 to level 1, while the Germans advance from level 1 to level two after 50 turns.

The Russians catch up 12,5 turns later (they researched level 2 for 25 turns on their own, so they have 50%. They now once again get a 2% bonus, added to the 2% research is 12,5 turns to get the additional 50%).

Not sure what the Germans get from level 2 to level 3...

It seems to me that for some reason the % you get for one chit is (at least for the Germans) 2%/turn at level 2, instead of 4% as per manual. This has as effect that the Russians catch up (relative) faster, as the bonus is still the same.

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Hi Bertram,

Just looking at this quickly and I can add that what is in the manual is likely the default settings we use for most campaigns but in some campaigns it can deviate from the default.

It looks like BtoB in AoC has it set so that advances are at 2% per turn per level, i.e. the same whether you are at Level-0, or Level-1 or Level-2.

Does this answer your concerns? If there is anything else more specific just let me know :)

Hubert

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