ALLIED - CMBN-Market Garden - BETA AAR (the better beta beater reader)

[John Kettler]

c3k,

Well fought, and with the aggressiveness and tenacity which define the Paras! Since you bought (and lost) 6 tanks and Bil lost none, am wondering, even without factoring in losses, how you managed such a manpower superiority? Did a 2 x Panther, 2 x Jagdpanzer IV, all those 251s and 4 x Flakwagens (mostly armored) eat up his infantry budget? Got the major AFV count from his setup post. Those icons are simply too small in the pic for me to read many of them.

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

I've just finished reading Bil's AAR. Wow. His abilities to recon, analyze, and coordinate the right combination is unbelievable. It is amazing to see. Even more, he makes it seem obvious...after he does it. I feel like a little kid who just wrestled his Dad to the ground...and then finds out how strong he REALLY is.

But enough of that. We need to get Bil's RL sorted so I can attack him again!

Re the purchase: my para purchase was to meet the points limit of the ME. Buying in bulk saves.

Ken

[General Lee Irked]

I've just finished reading Bil's AAR. Wow. His abilities to recon, analyze, and coordinate the right combination is unbelievable. It is amazing to see. Even more, he makes it seem obvious...after he does it. I feel like a little kid who just wrestled his Dad to the ground...and then finds out how strong he REALLY is.

But enough of that. We need to get Bil's RL sorted so I can attack him again!

Re the purchase: my para purchase was to meet the points limit of the ME. Buying in bulk saves.

Ken

Nice to pop the hood and see what you were racing against.

[Freyberg]

That was a super interesting and fun AAR, c3k. I hope you do another one soon !

[Andrew H.]

It's interesting that your casualties are 71 killed, 34 wounded; but Bil's are 55 killed, 61 wounded.

Were you shooting to disable?

[sfhand]

Ken, great AAR. Thanks!

[Hister]

Outsysnfing, Ken you tha men! Thanyou

[weta_nz]

Thanks for the entertaining write-up Ken! The humour in the face of adversity was excellent. Look forward to reading another of your AAR's in the future.

[c3k]

It's interesting that your casualties are 71 killed, 34 wounded; but Bil's are 55 killed, 61 wounded.

Were you shooting to disable?

A dead Hun can't talk, what? Wound 'em and put 'em in a PW cage. They'll talk.

My guys were hit by medium HE and flak cannon. Or the odd 7.92mm round. I wonder if all my 9mm smg rounds are modeled to be less lethal than full power rifle rounds? That would be interesting...

[Bil Hardenberger]

It was an interesting game for sure. I think both sides were limping off the field after this one, the big difference is that Ken held the town and I was not going to force him out of it with the force I had... with that in mind, even though I decimated his armor early in the battle, I have to tip my hat to Ken and say that yes the final scoring did not lie, and he won a tactical victory.

Good job Ken and I'll play against you anytime.

Cheers, Bil

[Blackcat]

Sincere thanks to both players for some great entertainment and some lessons on how to play the game.

I look forward to the re-match.

[Vinnart]

That was a nice, entertaining AAR presentation Ken. All things considering with the lose of your armor early you did a good job with what you had left.

You lost your armor early because you allowed Bil to play the game on you that you should have played on him. He put his armor in good positions, and waited patiently for you to reveal yours first when it should have been the other way around being allied. It is a case of your aggressive style of play working against you, when patience to learn where Bil’s armor was first would have allowed more “Shoot-n-Scoot” tactics, which IMO is really the only chance to fight against superior German armor. The cluster F—k with the AA tanks path finding when you lost both with one shot was simply bad luck.

All in all you played a good game, and feel the tactical victory deserving. Thanks for all the time you put into a good show.

[womble]

It's interesting that your casualties are 71 killed, 34 wounded; but Bil's are 55 killed, 61 wounded.

Were you shooting to disable?

I think a fair chunk of the casualties the Hun took were from mortars, and shrapnelly casualty causers tend to wound more often, it seems to me, than smaller, bullety type damage. Also, the Allies lost a number of crew in tanks killed by high velocity 75mms (with lots of energy left after puncturing Ken's tanks' comparatively thin skins), whereas I don't think any of the German panzers got brewed up. IME, if you lose a lot of armour, your KIA goes up rapidly.

[ExurbanKevin]

I wonder if all my 9mm smg rounds are modeled to be less lethal than full power rifle rounds? That would be interesting...

Based on the ft/lbs of muzzle energy and the effective range of a full-sized WWII-era rifle vs. that of a 9mm subgun, the subgun should be less likely to be a "man-stopper."

Pistol rounds are pistol rounds and rifle rounds are rifle rounds even when the pistol ammo comes out of a slightly longer barrel and therefore has more oomph behind it.

Great battle, great AAR. This one was going to go all 15 rounds.

[womble]

Based on the ft/lbs of muzzle energy and the effective range of a full-sized WWII-era rifle vs. that of a 9mm subgun, the subgun should be less likely to be a "man-stopper."

Pistol rounds are pistol rounds and rifle rounds are rifle rounds even when the pistol ammo comes out of a slightly longer barrel and therefore has more oomph behind it.

Against that you have to consider the potential of stopping more than one itty-bitty pistol bullet over the likelihood of stopping more than one bullet fired from a bolt action rifle... O'course, if it's an MG you're on the wrong end of, you might be stopping more than one full power rifle bullet, too.

[Heinrich505]

A classic among classics. This was the AAR I was looking forward to reading every day. You both did a superb job of showcasing some of the new stuff in MG while at the same time putting on a great struggle. Thanks for the really great show.

Heinrich505

[JoMac]

Truth. What is the count so far? I admit, I've lost count myself, but imagine that Bil is a tad bit miffed at the rate at which those gunners are getting dropped.

Well, with the increased lethality of Automatic Small Arms that everyone wanted so badly in the following patch, it's ofcourse no wonder casualties are increased.

Most fire now gets automagically directed to the same AS better ( since auto fire now has better aim, etc ) and thus a greater chance that Inf/exposed Personal in vehicles, etc become casualties

If this scenario took place before that patch that increased the affects of Small Arms lethality, then you wouldn't have lost half those crew members in HT's...

Please, and for the love of god, reduce the lethality of 'Small Arms' back to where it should be.

Joe

[Baneman]

Well, with the increased lethality of Automatic Small Arms that everyone wanted so badly in the following patch, it's ofcourse no wonder casualties are increased.

...

I'm not aware of an "increased lethality of Automatic Small Arms" in MarketGarden module or subsequent patch, but note in Patch 2.12 we got *German halftrack gunners lowered to a more accurate protective stance* - so if anything, Bil would probably have lost less gunners if playing the battle now.

If you're referring the MachineGun accuracy increase, I, for one, prefer the improvement.

[schwerpunktgrenadier]

I'm not aware of an "increased lethality of Automatic Small Arms"

Mmm, I don't know. I have frequently thought that a mg42 was firing on me in the scenarios I've played only to find out that it was an mp40.

[Baneman]

Mmm, I don't know. I have frequently thought that a mg42 was firing on me in the scenarios I've played only to find out that it was an mp40.

Well, there you find me in the "SMG's are too accurate" camp, but as far as I know, BFC have reduced the accuracy ( or at least the propensity of troops to use them at longer ranges ) over time.

I still think ( just my opinion ofc ) they should be reduced further though

[Michael Emrys]

I thought that what was increased for automatic weapons was not so much their lethality but their suppression effects. Not so?

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Consulting the readme files, I'm not seeing any general increase in small arms fire lethality outside of machine guns. There was an increase in suppression, and also rate of fire at short ranges.

v2.01:

* Soldiers fire weapons faster at short ranges, especially Garand rifles.

* Small arms fire causes more suppression than before.

* General improvements to MG performance behavior. See note below this list for more information.

* Better small-arms aiming at unarmored vehicles.

Special note: MGs now have more effective aiming, rates of fire, and suppression effects. These highly requested changes make combat more realistic and more challenging tactically. Some players will find their existing tactics may need some adjustments, others may find no significant need for change. We recommend practicing attacks on MG positions before continuing an in progress Campaign or game against another player.

v2.10:

* SMGs are less eager to fire at long ranges.

[c3k]

^^^

The mg42 is far more deadly than it was. The firing rates seem better, and that induces more suppression and kills.

Otherwise, small arms modeling has stayed the same, as far as I know. SMG's have a reduced eagerness to open fire.

As others, I still feel that SMG's are a bit too accurate. However, hitting uncovered man-sized targets at 100 yards is not too difficult. (Range conditions, not battlefield.)

I don't remember how effective the Stens were at killing Bil's halftrack gunners at range, or if it was the Brens or snipers. The paras have a beautiful balance of weaponry for defensive battles or close terrain. They have as many Brens as a rifle unit, more snipers, and Stens for everyone else.

If the defender has MG42's covering the approaches, infantry alone has a very hard time taking them out. They are nasty. As they were...

[c3k]

Just posting because photobucket has restored their links, so I wanted to check my screenshots. They are here.

One thing I only touched on, was what a great sport Bil was to play. In every case, he was solicitous, courteous, and willing to adjust to any of my preferences. If I did not emphasize it enough, "Thank you" to Bil. It was truly a pleasure.

[marklaker]

Off the charts entertainment value!!!  Well done....well done.  For the better part of a month, a quick cup of coffee and a 15-20 minute scroll through this thread each morning before heading out the door to the salt mine was the perfect vaccine for the madness that invariably ensued.  Whatever shall I do with my mornings, now???  *Snap*!  Onto the Axis thread....what else?