Yippeeeeeeeee

[A Canadian Cat]

New orders of battle

New Terrain

Features from GL

Signed Mr. Lemming

Yep +1 there

Signed Mr. Lemming (we all have the same name because after all if you are just going to copy each other what do we need different names for)

[Battlefront.com]

Some semi-random answers:

1. You can not interest someone in a wargame by lowering the price. That's because niches don't operate like that. If a niche operator, with a strong position within the niche, wants to increase revenue then the best option is usual to RAISE prices. Why? Because decreasing prices doesn't affect the number of sales much, which means in the end you wind up with less total revenue. Conversely, raising the price will lose some customers but overall revenue will be higher. It's simple math. Lowering the price by 50% requires bringing in 1 new customer for every 1 existing customer JUST TO STAY EVEN. Raising the price 50% means you can lose 1 customer for every 2 existing customers and stay even. Trust me, it's a lot easier to lose only 33% of our customers than it is to increase customers by 100%.

We could alter our pricing like Matrix did. Notice that they went up. That's because they apparently understand niches as well as we do.

2. As I've already said, lowering our prices means lowering our profits unless we also lower our costs. Lowering costs, to you customers, means less stuff. So yeah, we could put out a $20 Module. But it would have roughly 35% less stuff in it than a $35 Module would otherwise have. There's a reason intro level business classes teach this sort of stuff. It's, uhm, kinda important.

3. I don't think there is a single CMx1 customer not purchasing CMx2 products because of price. So lower the price won't change the minds of CMx1 customers any more than it would someone who likes to play World of Warcraft.

4. For sure Market Garden will not appeal to every CM customer. Expecting every single CM fan to buy every single CM product is really foolish. We're not foolish By definition this means some will not purchase MG. So telling us "I won't buy it" doesn't put any pressure on us because... it's expected. As long as enough people find value in it then we're all set. It could be that MG is a "bridge too far" for us and it bombs. If so, then we will learn that our concept of value needs adjustment and move on from there.

5. Advertising only works when it brings in more new customers than it costs to advertise. Our experience with advertising has shown us that we're financially better off using mostly word of mouth and alternative marketing methods. We advertise only when we think there's something to be gained from it. And this is a good thing for you because it means more of our revenue goes back into development instead of advertising. Look at how much money US pharmaceutical companies spend on advertising, bonuses, and lobbying and you'll understand why drug costs are so astronomically high in the US.

To wrap up... we've been making and selling wargames for 15 years while most other companies have come and gone. We have one the longest lived wargame franchise out there and the only one, in our opinion, that continues to push the envelope with each release. It's most likely that we know what we're doing.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

I'm quite sure it is not true if you are not counting only Hollywood productions

I am counting movies that have reached a mass audience in this country. I am aware that other nations have their own movie industries and often produce better entertainment than Hollywood. But if they don't reach a mass audience in this country, they aren't going to influence the wargaming market in this country. And that is what we were talking about.

Michael

[Fallout]

Some semi-random answers:

...snip...

..... Expecting every single CM fan to buy every single CM product is really foolish.

...snip....

Steve

Yeah, right . Just try to stop us fools ..........and take my money already;)

[sburke]

Beelzeboss the problem isn't that someone might say "gee, this doesn't seem like the same value as I got from GL". That is certainly a viable position- assuming you actually have some real data to work with. However you are trying to compare two products, one of which you don't have based on an initial blurb of things that would be included (but Steve never said that was all that would ever be in it.)

So the objection everyone has is you obstinately cling to a position that is based in complete ignorance of what the value of MG might or might not be.

When I was into board games I didn't say well gee this game has 850 counters, but that one has 950 counters for the same damn price!! Trying to say well this one has more OoBs than that one without a full picture to compare the two is pretty silly. And as a note on relative value, I just looked on the MMP board game site. An ASL action pack with 3 maps (I mean 3 map boards....yeah a double sided board) and 10 scenarios is $34. Oh crap, Steve might have seen that and is gonna jack up the price!! See what you made me do!

[MikeyD]

Just try to stop us fools ..........and take my money already

Hey, while you're waiting you can always pick up a copy of CM:Afghanistan!

[warrenpeace]

Steve:

As someone interested in the micro-economic aspect of your business, I have a question. When it comes to modules, what percentage of the base engine owners actually buy them? Specifically, if you sold X units of CMBN, what fraction of X bought CW module (You should not count bundling, as the module is in a sense already discounted). If the fraction is very high , your pricing strategy is certainly the correct one.

I guess my feeling is that if I did not already own the CW mod and the 2.0 patch, then MG would absolutely be worth $35.00 as I would be getting a bunch of new British forces including airborne, armor and infantry as well as some new SS units that I do not have. However, as someone who has CMBN 2.0 + the CW mod, I already have those units, so the new stuff seems a bit low. Perhaps it might be a good idea to offer the MG mod at a discount to CW mod owners.

Warren

[Mord]

Funny how this part of the "Start of Real News" thread gets completely ignored...

There's no doubt more stuff than that, but I think that's enough for now to get things started.

Steve

Mord.

[Freyberg]

I'm not a rich guy, but I think the CM games are quite good value for money. The handful of other games and other 'entertainment software' I've owned over the years had vastly less to them. The wealth of informational detail in CM - vehicles, units, weapons, all that historical jazz - is really quite remarkable.

For example, I've learned more from the CM series than from a dozen of the military history books I read.

[Freyberg]

Having said that, hurry up and implement that huge list of stuff in the wishlist thread

[Battlefront.com]

As someone interested in the micro-economic aspect of your business, I have a question. When it comes to modules, what percentage of the base engine owners actually buy them?

We don't have enough to know for sure as Shock Force had no internal competition (i.e. if you like Modern there's only one Family) and both Normandy and Italy only have one Module each so far.

In general the sales of a Module depend heavily on the popularity of the Family itself. The more niche the Family, the higher the percentage of Modules are expected. The reason is that Modules are purchased by people who have a strong interest in the subject matter. The more selective the subject matter the fewer "casual" players buy into the Family and that means fewer "drop out" over time.

However, as someone who has CMBN 2.0 + the CW mod, I already have those units, so the new stuff seems a bit low. Perhaps it might be a good idea to offer the MG mod at a discount to CW mod owners.

This was the concern we had when deciding if we should go ahead with Market Garden or not. The question I had to determine was... "can we make MG different enough from Commonwealth to get people interested in both?". It took some more research and planning, but we felt the answer is a strong "yes, we can". If it had been less than that we would have simply cancelled Market Garden and made some smaller Packs instead.

Now, having said that it still comes down to personal preferences. Do you, as an individual player, care to play battles set in The Netherlands? How about playing on a map that looks and feels like Arnhem or Nijmegen specifically, not just generically? If you do care, do you want them to look like Dutch villages or are you OK with them looking like French villages? If you don't care about these battles, or how they look/feel, then the value of MG to you then takes a hit. If you do value that sort of stuff it gets a plus.

If you don't care about beat up German units from various branches, nor about Fallschirmjäger, then there's some missing value in MG compared to someone who wants to do those types of battles. Similarly, if you don't really care about minor equipment/organizational changes to Allied units (especially Airborne), then MG isn't going to excite you in that sense either. Just as you might not care about some of the more obscure Airborne forces (British and American) that took part in these battles.

And of course if you don't care too much about AAA vehicles and some other new arrivals (KT Henschel, for example), there's some value in MG that you won't care about. You might not even care that they are integrated into your existing TO&E as they were historically. Or maybe you do, and therefore MG has value in that sense.

Lastly, some people (many, in fact) like buying something that tells the story of a particular battle/campaign. They want to play historical battles that look and feel the part. Terrain, formations, and equipment... all wrapped up in one package. Others are more into things like QuickBattles or playing H2H, which might mean they don't care about the whole and only the component pieces.

You can also look at it similarly for someone who doesn't own Commonwealth. There's a lot in Commonwealth that isn't in Market Garden. If the player values what's in Market Garden a lot, maybe Commonwealth isn't so exciting to them.

It's up to the individual to figure this out for himself. We can't do that. All we can do is put the stuff together and present it for purchase. You either buy it or you don't. Nobody can force it to be otherwise

Steve

[Fenris]

I realize this is a bit of a duh! question but...

Just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy - adding MG will bring Fallschirmjäger to Normandy yes?

-F

[Mord]

I realize this is a bit of a duh! question but...

Just so I can feel all warm and fuzzy - adding MG will bring Fallschirmjäger to Normandy yes?

-F

#6.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=109972

Mord.

[waclaw]

1

low content (in previews) module compared to the GL or CF - I really hope I'm wrong.

2

35$ to have a different value, for me it's quite an expense (I never complained about the price of modules), but necessarily more is expected from the product (the same content as in the GL module)if the product cost 10-15 bucks I would have enjoyed as you with the contents of the module, because the less you pay the less we expect

3

poor information policy. Some text about the contents of the module, no pictures, and let's face it, a bad movie

- For the moment, I am not convinced by the module.

I do not want to criticize something that does not yet exist, so hold on until the module is released;)

[togi]

Steve:

As someone interested in the micro-economic aspect of your business, I have a question. When it comes to modules, what percentage of the base engine owners actually buy them? Specifically, if you sold X units of CMBN, what fraction of X bought CW module (You should not count bundling, as the module is in a sense already discounted). If the fraction is very high , your pricing strategy is certainly the correct one.

I guess my feeling is that if I did not already own the CW mod and the 2.0 patch, then MG would absolutely be worth $35.00 as I would be getting a bunch of new British forces including airborne, armor and infantry as well as some new SS units that I do not have. However, as someone who has CMBN 2.0 + the CW mod, I already have those units, so the new stuff seems a bit low. Perhaps it might be a good idea to offer the MG mod at a discount to CW mod owners.

Warren

Very fair approach as a CW + CMBN owner with the 35 + 55 usd price tag

[Battlefront.com]

1

low content (in previews) module compared to the GL or CF - I really hope I'm wrong.

And yet you continue to post instead of waiting?

2

35$ to have a different value, for me it's quite an expense (I never complained about the price of modules), but necessarily more is expected from the product (the same content as in the GL module)if the product cost 10-15 bucks I would have enjoyed as you with the contents of the module, because the less you pay the less we expect

Correct. And because there is $35 worth of content you should NOT expect to pay $10-$15. If you do not think it is worth $35... fine... don't buy it.

3

poor information policy. Some text about the contents of the module, no pictures, and let's face it, a bad movie

If the Module were for sale today you would be correct. But we haven't even announced a shipping date, so why is it *SO VERY IMPORTANT* to know what is in it *RIGHT NOW*? How about you let us confirm what is in the Module when we are ready?

- For the moment, I am not convinced by the module.

I think we understood that a long time ago.

I do not want to criticize something that does not yet exist, so hold on until the module is released;)

A hint. If you do not want to criticize something that does not yet exist, maybe you shouldn't criticize something that does not yet exist?

You do see the problem with being so vocally negative/pessimistic and then at the same time say that you don't have enough information to make a judgement? I sure do

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Very fair approach as a CW + CMBN owner with the 35 + 55 usd price tag

Not an option. The Module is priced at $35 because there is $35 worth of content. If you don't agree then you don't buy it. Same as every single product we've ever released. We are not going to give people discounts because they undervalue what is in a release.

You have a choice to purchase or not purchase. That is the only choice you have. Accept this fact and move on. Please.

Steve

[Mord]

poor information policy. Some text about the contents of the module, no pictures, and let's face it, a bad movie

- For the moment, I am not convinced by the module.

You are like a broken record...EVERY single game released by BFC has started with only hints and small bones about what was coming. This isn't anything new AT ALL...but you act like it is. The VIDEO WAS A TEASER. How many friggin' times does it have to be said? A TEEEEEEASER! Nothing more. But hey, ignore that...I know you will...can't keep harping on it if you don't.

The pictures, videos and full on explanations will come LIKE they ALWAYS have. Maybe before the official page goes up. But HISTORICALLY once it does go up we get lots of info dumps. That "start of actual new thread" was a good beginning.

You guys are either being willfully ignorant or you haven't been around here very long.

Mord.

[Mord]

The Module is priced at $35 because there is $35 worth of content. If you don't agree then you don't buy it.

Steve

You should say that ANOTHER 500 times just in case they missed the first 500. Unreal. I can only imagine what these guys are like in a restaurant.

Mord.

[togi]

Not an option. The Module is priced at $35 because there is $35 worth of content. If you don't agree then you don't buy it. Same as every single product we've ever released. We are not going to give people discounts because they undervalue what is in a release.

You have a choice to purchase or not purchase. That is the only choice you have. Accept this fact and move on. Please.

Steve

Ok I will evaluate the module, perhaps you are seeing that bundle sells are lower than seperate game sells because of rush to the game while launched. So it seems profitable to milk the cows like us :-)

May be I will be waiting your last bundle MG + Bulge because of your policy

regards

[Mord]

Ok I will evaluate the module, perhaps you are seeing that bundle sells are lower than seperate game sells because of rush the game while launched. So it seems profitable to milk the cows like us :-)

May be I will be waiting your last bundle MG + Bulge

regards

How are they "rushing the game?" We've been waiting for it almost a year. We have barely gotten any info about it. LOL Now they are getting ready to release?

Trust me, if BFC somehow gets 35 bucks out of you, they EARNED it. Steve just put out 50 dollars worth of arguing...and that's a conservative estimate.

Mord.

[togi]

How are they "rushing the game?" We've been waiting for it almost a year. We have barely gotten any info about it? LOL Now they are getting ready to release?

Trust me, if BFC somehow gets 35 bucks out of you, they EARNED it. Steve just put out 50 dollars worth of arguing...and that's a conservative estimate.

Mord.

I mean majority mate not the man as clever you

[Mord]

I have no idea what you mean. But regardless, once the official announcement is made and the web page goes up, THEN you guys will know what's in it.

Mord.

[togi]

I have no idea what you mean. But regardless, once the official announcement is made and the web page goes up, THEN you guys will know what's in it.

Mord.

I think Steve will understand

please read my past message before, I mean that BFC has seen that they are selling more games or modules at first launch, so they don't need to lower price for the favor of ex-buyers (CMBN + CW owners) or they know that their ex-buyers would buy this game at first launch as majority. So they don't need any marketing strategy for ex-owner. Directly sell to milk the cows :-)

regards

[jeffsmith]

Bulge is going to be a Completely Seperate Base Game

with its own set of Modules

It has Nothing to do with CMBN and its Modules