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Seedorf81

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I'm not sure where you guys are getting the idea that the module goes through November. Steve flatly ruled this out.

CMBN's timeframe extends to the end of September. Bulge will start in October and go through to the end of the war. Therefore all questions about winter stuff, vehicles introduced in October, etc. are easily answered now

All of my comments were based on Steve's initial post which clearly lays out what will be in the Mod. My major point is that it does not seem that this Mod has as much "stuff" as the last two and that is why it should probably have a lower price point. Don't get me wrong, I hope you guys are right and there is improvements in the engine and additional months and terrain additions, but based on what Steve wrote, I think it is unlikely.

1. Basic Waffen SS and British units which represent those units that fought directly in the Market Garden battles. Which means the majority of units found in Commonwealth are not present in CM:MG.

2. New German Heer, Waffen SS, and Luftwaffe units have been added which aren't present in Commonwealth. These better portray the scratch formations which made up the bulk of the early German resistance to the landings. Training, security, school, admin personnel, etc. are available.

3. We've added German Navy units. These poor saps were base and ex-ship personnel thrown into battle without much consideration about their fighting capabilities (which were next to none). In fact, this is the first time we've ever had Navy ground units in a CM game. Though to be honest, it's mostly for flavor as organizationally they weren't that much different from horribly stripped down and under equipped Heer units. Still, it's better to give you explicitly tweaked units than to say "imagine those Heer guys are Navy".

4. AAA units are present for the first time on the Western Front. Not only the sorts of AAA stuff found in Gustav Line, but some new fun things like Wirbelwind and Crusader AA.

5. The Germans also now have access to Panzer Brigades. These armor heavy units are uniquely organized and contain the ever fun SPW 251/21 in large numbers.

6. Fallschirmjäger are now present, all the way from June through September.

7. Some new vehicle variants for all forces just to keep things interesting.

8. New terrain features to create the feeling you're battling in The Netherlands and not France. Yes, we have even included a windmill

9. Bridges. Lots of 'em We are including 5 custom made historically accurate bridges, a canal bridge, and 3 new generic long bridges. Some, like the Arnhem road bridge, are massive. For the larger ones we include "stubs" which map makers can use to simulate fights around the entrance to a bridge without having the other 500+ meters stuck in there.

And before the questions start flying about what new game features are to be added... a reminder that as a rule Modules do not add new game elements unless they are directly necessary for that particular Module. Besides the new bridges and some other terrain related stuff, we don't see the need for new features and therefore there won't be many directly related to Market Garden. However, anything new that was added for Gustav Line will be automatically carried over to the entire Normandy Family of games. Such as new shaders, "movie" lighting, bug fixes, gameplay tweaks, AAA support, etc. No worries there.

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There is a price point where I would not buy the next mod, but Battlefront hasn't come close to hitting it yet (unless you include Shock Force which wasn't my cup of tea and I took a pass on).

Very happy with both first families at the moment - room for improvement but just like CMBO a decade + ago, as I got better at it and found good PBEM matches, the game became much more immersive and fun - the difference being that CMBO wasn't being improved like CMBN and FI are.

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I stopped at the beer store on my way home from the hardware store today and 24 cans of Heineken was $58. This is in Southern Ontario in Canada. A pack of smokes $9.85. Almost the same as the cost to upgrade CMBN to 2.0. I would say $35 for MG is well worth the money. I think I would get more fun and enjoyment out of MG if ALL it had were windmills, paratroopers, and some bridges, than from a single case of beer.

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I always find it funny when people are being told to be quiet on a discussion forum.

People are told to be quiet when they either act in an impolite fashion or spread outright mis- and disinformation even when being informed otherwise. (ie. the ongoing loop that the MG module only contains a bridge and a windmill, this is being spread on Youtube and on other discussion forums)

I don't see any problem with that whatsoever. The distinct lack of flaming and trolling has made this my favourite forum on the internet. Your mileage may vary. There are different norms for social interaction, but this is pretty much the basic Western model.

Like I said earlier, I would love a link to a thread where constructive discussion is being silenced. So many people act like it happens regularly on this forum so I assume it is easy to find an example. ;)

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Send them a list with your demands...

Am I the only one to see the irony in this? After 200+ posts it sure seems like this thread has been highjacked.

PS - We do not negotiate with terrorists.

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Ehm, how do you know that MG covers just one month?

And suppose battlefront surprises us with a huge improvement in urban combat, for instance? Would that make you prepared to pay the original price?

It is not as if you have to buy MG without the possibility to see how it turns out. Be a little patient, and on this Forum and on YouTube there will be an enormous amount of information on MG, through people like me who are buying it anyway. So there you can find out if your expectations/fears were right. Now you just don't know.

But maybe it's better to describe to Battlefront what you per se want in MG so you pay the 35$ willingly? Send them a list with your demands and if they do not comply you save yourself the money.

I'm terribly sorry if I sound a little irritated, but I really do not understand why people want a discount IF THEY JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GONNA GET! Wait and see, d*#n it!

Think how cheap MG could have been if the boys from Battlefront didn't have to participate in this useless discussions time and time again.

I hope there at least some new features in MG. An improvement in urban combat would be lovely

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Am I the only one to see the irony in this? After 200+ posts it sure seems like this thread has been highjacked.

PS - We do not negotiate with terrorists.

Anyone can clearly see that they are freedom fighters.

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But now i'm not sure why they are doing that(whatever they are doing) because most of their customers where not even interested to have something more and would be happy whatever this module would look like

Erm... no... but MOST of us have full confidence that Battlefront will include enough in the module to make it worth 35$.

We are not mindless lemmings who will buy every product they make. Should MG not include enough to warrant a 35$ pricetag, most here will not buy it.

BUT, we also know that Battlefronts track record shows that they will probably include enough for us to be satisfied.

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About MG module i have explained it too. Steve said that we don't have full information about module, info in "The start of actual news" is not complete and my judgment is not justify, so ok, i have to wait and see apparently there is something more. But now i'm not sure why they are doing that(whatever they are doing) because most of their customers where not even interested to have something more and would be happy whatever this module would look like

OR most of us ALREADY realized that we didn't have all the info and usually, a good way to factor in what the module/game is going to have is to read the OFFICIAL release announcement that historically comes with a new webpage and a huge list of all the units and features that will be in the release. But why let logic like that get in the way?

Criticism is most constructive when you actually know what you are criticizing.

Mord.

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sure but it didn't look like this. The whole thing is about this announcement:

1. Basic Waffen SS and British units which represent those units that fought directly in the Market Garden battles. Which means the majority of units found in Commonwealth are not present in CM:MG.

2. New German Heer, Waffen SS, and Luftwaffe units have been added which aren't present in Commonwealth. These better portray the scratch formations which made up the bulk of the early German resistance to the landings. Training, security, school, admin personnel, etc. are available.

3. We've added German Navy units. These poor saps were base and ex-ship personnel thrown into battle without much consideration about their fighting capabilities (which were next to none). In fact, this is the first time we've ever had Navy ground units in a CM game. Though to be honest, it's mostly for flavor as organizationally they weren't that much different from horribly stripped down and under equipped Heer units. Still, it's better to give you explicitly tweaked units than to say "imagine those Heer guys are Navy".

4. AAA units are present for the first time on the Western Front. Not only the sorts of AAA stuff found in Gustav Line, but some new fun things like Wirbelwind and Crusader AA.

5. The Germans also now have access to Panzer Brigades. These armor heavy units are uniquely organized and contain the ever fun SPW 251/21 in large numbers.

6. Fallschirmjäger are now present, all the way from June through September.

7. Some new vehicle variants for all forces just to keep things interesting.

8. New terrain features to create the feeling you're battling in The Netherlands and not France. Yes, we have even included a windmill

9. Bridges. Lots of 'em We are including 5 custom made historically accurate bridges, a canal bridge, and 3 new generic long bridges. Some, like the Arnhem road bridge, are massive. For the larger ones we include "stubs" which map makers can use to simulate fights around the entrance to a bridge without having the other 500+ meters stuck in there.

And before the questions start flying about what new game features are to be added... a reminder that as a rule Modules do not add new game elements unless they are directly necessary for that particular Module. Besides the new bridges and some other terrain related stuff, we don't see the need for new features and therefore there won't be many directly related to Market Garden. However, anything new that was added for Gustav Line will be automatically carried over to the entire Normandy Family of games. Such as new shaders, "movie" lighting, bug fixes, gameplay tweaks, AAA support, etc. No worries there.

Most comments were something like Yipeee, awesome cool, i love this i want this I love you BF. But when some people where disapointed of this info and said wait the minute isn't this somewhat small? Is that all? It's mostly OOB and terrain changes plus some features from GL. Then people start to be resent, don't like it don't buy and shut up. Many said as I understand that are happy of this concrete content and would buy it anyway. That's why in my opinion they are ready to blindly accept anything BF will do and they will always be happy like those lemmings that Oddball_E8 has mentioned. Maybe it is overstatement but this is how it looked like.

But now we know that there probably be more so we can stop this, because no one understand each other and it's pointless. At least BF could give some new info or some clues or something

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But when some people where disapointed of this info and said wait the minute isn't this somewhat small? Is that all? I

It was a 41 second TEASER video of one tank driving across a bridge...THAT'S all it was meant to be. How hard is that to understand? But when you are looking for reasons to presume and b**** I guess that is as good a place to start as any.

Mord.

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sure but it didn't look like this. The whole thing is about this announcement:

Most comments were something like Yipeee, awesome cool, i love this i want this I love you BF. But when some people where disapointed of this info and said wait the minute isn't this somewhat small? Is that all? It's mostly OOB and terrain changes plus some features from GL. Then people start to be resent, don't like it don't buy and shut up. Many said as I understand that are happy of this concrete content and would buy it anyway. That's why in my opinion they are ready to blindly accept anything BF will do and they will always be happy like those lemmings that Oddball_E8 has mentioned. Maybe it is overstatement but this is how it looked like.

But now we know that there probably be more so we can stop this, because no one understand each other and it's pointless. At least BF could give some new info or some clues or something

Well first off let's take a look at the few items you listed and understand what they actually mean.

New orders of battle - You could simply have a game with generic troops and decide okay my guys are Brits and yours are Germans...even if they all look the same and organizationally are the same OR you could have unique ToEs for units and figures modeled to look correctly. Now you have to actually build those ToEs into the game and model them all with appropriate weapons and uniforms etc. Consider there are a lot of people who buy CM who never actually PLAY the game, but instead are into the aspect of modding them for an almost Diorama aspect. I can't speak for you, but the new OoB and ToE are for me a huge deal.

New Terrain - Well all I can say here is you speak from ignorance. I can't say anything more than that. Other than that I am extremely excited. :D

Features from GL- Hmm either you don't play the game much or you don't understand the significance of that.

I'd be curious as to what you think is missing. Don't start on fire as we all knew over a year ago that fire is one of those things that likely isn't going to come until 3.0. Yes I am excited by just those 3 things. Partly because I know those 3 things actually represent a lot more than you so blithely pass off as not much.

However I also know BF well enough to know there will be more and what they gave was just a basic review of what they knew they were putting together back when they wrote all this. Incidentally that was 5 months ago. Times change.

Signed Mr. Lemming

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These 9 things for me are enough for me to buy this module. For some it may not be enough but I do not expect CMBB sized portions ever again. Especially with the upgraded graphics et. al.

I also suspect that BF will throw something else in there, even if it is small, because those are the kind of guys that they are.

One point of clarification - The use of the word "Socialist" as a pejorative

I would consider myself a socialist (or more precisely a "social democrat" with some classical liberalism thrown in for good measure) but I still think people should be paid for the effort that they put into something. The price you charge is fair and if I think it is too expensive for what I get, I will not buy it. If I feel that you have provided value to me, then I will buy it. In the US, the phrases "socialist" or "liberal" are used without any real understanding to either.

This is one of the problems I have with this discussion. If too expensive, then do not buy. If you want it, then buy it. There is no coercion in this. Think of it as a Louis Vuitton bag that your wife wants. $1000 is practical for some, a luxury for others.

(and shame on you Yankee Dog - I have bought every game/module and I have only posted 324 times)

viva la revolucion

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That's why in my opinion they are ready to blindly accept anything BF will do and they will always be happy like those lemmings that Oddball_E8 has mentioned. Maybe it is overstatement but this is how it looked like.

You used the word opinion here and that's exactly what this is all about. Opinions are subjective just like perceived value is subjective. Some may see the list of features in CMMG and have the opinion that it's worth $35.00. Others may look at it and say it's not worth it.

BF doesn't have the luxury of dealing with guess work or opinion they have to be pretty certain how many units they can sell in order to recoup their development costs and hopefully make a little profit. If the end product doesn't have enough perceived value by the majority of customers then BF will lose money. BF is not in this business to lose money so I am confident that the majority will see the value in what is produced.

This doesn't mean that some customers will not. Some may decide to save their money and wait for CM:EF or CM:SF2 . We all don't think the same and we all decide to buy or not to buy for a number of reasons. You my friend, need to decide for yourself and let everyone else do the same. State your opinion yes, but don't insist that everyone see it your way ...

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I've made a number of detailed posts about this topic over the years, going way back to CMx1 days. Eastern Front is not a wargamer's first choice for a wargamer. It is, however, the first choice for a grognard's first choice. Wargamers are a larger audience, grognards a smaller subset. And yes, it has a lot to do with the game not having US or British forces. It's a complex topic, that is for sure.

I have to wonder how much of it has to do with how recently there has been a blockbuster movie on the subject. Newcomers to wargaming had, when CMBO came out, recently been exposed to SPR and BoB. I think the only movie set on the Eastern Front in recent years has been Enemy at the Gates, and I don't think it had nearly the popularity or impact.

Michael

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I have to wonder how much of it has to do with how recently there has been a blockbuster movie on the subject. Newcomers to wargaming had, when CMBO came out, recently been exposed to SPR and BoB. I think the only movie set on the Eastern Front in recent years has been Enemy at the Gates, and I don't think it had nearly the popularity or impact.

Michael

You have a point there. I'm not even sure if there would have ever been a wargaming hobby, or that I would ever have been attracted to it, had there not been all those movies about WWII my dad took me to when I was a wee one ("Broadsword calling Danny Boy...Broadsword calling Danny Boy...")

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Interesting turns in this thread. Since we seem to be whining... My only beef is the multiple base games approach. I'd much prefer everything to be upgrades/additions to the one install.

Oh yes and an op layer and/or the return CM1 operations, can't forget that.

And finally fire + smoke.

That is all, pls continue.

-F

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You used the word opinion here and that's exactly what this is all about. Opinions are subjective just like perceived value is subjective. Some may see the list of features in CMMG and have the opinion that it's worth $35.00. Others may look at it and say it's not worth it.

yes of course.People can have opinion that this list is worth 35$ that's their choice if they like, they can write over and over thnx BF, it's awesome I love you and other compliments. But why then when someone(it wasn't only me) is disappointed of something and will write it people here are feeling insulted or something and saying over and over, don't buy if you don't like it go away you socialist :). And i want to buy it but I want it to look at least like previous modules.

Well first off let's take a look at the few items you listed and understand what they actually mean.

New orders of battle - You could simply have a game with generic troops and decide okay my guys are Brits and yours are Germans...even if they all look the same and organizationally are the same OR you could have unique ToEs for units and figures modeled to look correctly. Now you have to actually build those ToEs into the game and model them all with appropriate weapons and uniforms etc. Consider there are a lot of people who buy CM who never actually PLAY the game, but instead are into the aspect of modding them for an almost Diorama aspect. I can't speak for you, but the new OoB and ToE are for me a huge deal.

New Terrain - Well all I can say here is you speak from ignorance. I can't say anything more than that. Other than that I am extremely excited.

Features from GL- Hmm either you don't play the game much or you don't understand the significance of that.

I'd be curious as to what you think is missing. Don't start on fire as we all knew over a year ago that fire is one of those things that likely isn't going to come until 3.0. Yes I am excited by just those 3 things. Partly because I know those 3 things actually represent a lot more than you so blithely pass off as not much.

However I also know BF well enough to know there will be more and what they gave was just a basic review of what they knew they were putting together back when they wrote all this. Incidentally that was 5 months ago. Times change.

Until now modules offered much more than this list and I am compering to them.

New orders of battle- rather some minor changes and very small compared to commonwealth or Gustav Line

New Terrain- really how much new features is necessary for it. IMO bridges and mill :) and and some new textures of course. yes it's cool but it's not much really

Features from GL yes, probably biggest revolution right now :)

One point of clarification - The use of the word "Socialist" as a pejorative

I would consider myself a socialist (or more precisely a "social democrat" with some classical liberalism thrown in for good measure) but I still think people should be paid for the effort that they put into something. The price you charge is fair and if I think it is too expensive for what I get, I will not buy it. If I feel that you have provided value to me, then I will buy it. In the US, the phrases "socialist" or "liberal" are used without any real understanding to either.

Yes, you are right. In fact I feel as "left wing" too, I'm definitely not neoliberal fundamentalist :). For some reason "socialist" is used here to describe person who don't understand how freee market works and want BF games for free... maybe commie would be better :)

I think the only movie set on the Eastern Front in recent years has been Enemy at the Gates

I'm quite sure it is not true if you are not counting only Hollywood productions

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You guys are forgetting two crucial parts of a module; campaigns and scenarios. Im glingnto guess that we will be getting 2-4 campaigns and 9-14 scenarios. That content to me is atleast worth $25.

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What about the Russian movie "White Tiger"...

Never even heard of that one.

...or the German Unsere Müter Unsere Väter"?

Heard of it but really don't know anything about it. The point being that neither of those has reached or is likely to reach a mass audience and so is unlikely to have a major effect on public awareness. Absent that, it also isn't going to create much if any demand for wargames on the subject. Something like Cross of Iron might do the trick, as it did for paper games in the late '70s, but that's about how far you'd have to go back (36 years) to find an example.

Michael

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