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Canada Guy

Acquire & supply depots

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The gauntlet has been thrown.

Taking buddy aid out of the equation, what suggestions and recommendations could we ask BF to consider to shape the behaviors and actions of the acquire command?

I would like to have each unit be able to acquire supplies if they are in range of

1. a vehicle (not just inside the vehicle), lets say 10 meters

A destroyed but not burning vehicle could be included perhaps with 1/2 of all ammo not available to abstract the possibility of having some not available.

2. other units within their company

If a company commander said to move that PIAT/PF from unit A to unit B, I would assume that it would be done. But keep the present system where this is done automatically for within the platoon. Only specific actions would allow moment of ammo between platoons (and only if within range - and would not allow actual weapons outside of AT weapons to be moved - so no MP40s all being moved to one unit or 1 squad with 8 MG42s as I do not think this is historically accurate though I may be wrong)

3. from a non-movable supply depot situated on the map

I am unsure about this as I am thinking about the movies that I have seen with the GIs always going for the supply depots. I am not sure how true to life having actual supply depots on the map is. Perhaps three different types of supply depots. Company (a few crates and 1-2 AT weapons), Battalion (could also include mortar bombs/demo charges if attached to the Battalion) and Regimental supply depots (everything within reason) with increasing levels of supply and weapons types. This may also solve the problem of resupplying the 7.92K bullet type.

Can any of us think of other ways that a unit would resupply outside of buddy aid?

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I would like to have each unit be able to acquire supplies if they are in range of

1. a vehicle (not just inside the vehicle), lets say 10 meters

I think this a bit too liberal and would oppose it. However, I might be convinced to allow a unit in the same AS but not actually mounting the vehicle to draw resupply.

3. from a non-movable supply depot situated on the map

I am unsure about this as I am thinking about the movies that I have seen with the GIs always going for the supply depots. I am not sure how true to life having actual supply depots on the map is. Perhaps three different types of supply depots. Company (a few crates and 1-2 AT weapons), Battalion (could also include mortar bombs/demo charges if attached to the Battalion) and Regimental supply depots (everything within reason) with increasing levels of supply and weapons types. This may also solve the problem of resupplying the 7.92K bullet type.

Can any of us think of other ways that a unit would resupply outside of buddy aid?

I think more definite information is needed to know what the expected level of supply to be held at each level might be. The problem is that those levels would be very highly variable depending on situations beyond the scope of CM. One thing you have overlooked is that company level units usually had a wagon or trailer with generous (for CM) amounts of munitions aboard. I would be interested to see those introduced in the game. Like all thin-skinned vehicles they are highly vulnerable to any kind of fire and might explode spectacularly depending on how full they are and what they are carrying.

Michael

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I think that you'd have to at least be in the same AS as the vehicle - representing the driver/other crew handing out the ammo. But that much would be a welcome change.

I think allowing ammo to be Acquired from destroyed ( but not burning ) vehicles may be a step too far, since as it stands, you have more incentive to keep them out of harms way.

A static type of supply crate/dump would be good, especially for scenario builders and for longer battles.

It would be nice to resolve the 7.92K availability issue and the addition of grenades in vehicles would also be welcome.

It was also raised in another thread that having a "take 100" option would be useful - as it stands, the first 1 or 2 units that go to the truck have to take 500 rounds which can be annoying.

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Yes, I can see that having the vehicle in the same AS would be logical (or something very close to the AS). I am more opposed to actually having to mount a vehicle to get the ammo as I have wasted 2 minutes just getting into it at times.

A wagon would be nice also and make it very vulnerable. Problem is that you would need horses (and horse animations) as it was slowly movable. Again, I do not know much about the moving of ammo wagons in a tactical battle to know if having it move would even be historical or needed. Having the animations would be nice but I do not want to get into someone asking for cavalry as we would have horses. If the animations were just that, just part of the vehicle, then I would say, add them and slowly trundle that wagon around the battlefield.

You should be able to scrounge something from a destroyed (but not burning) vehicle. I remember in CMx1 that you always had some ammo even with low levels of supply. Having this would allow you to at least scrounge something (even if only 20% was available) from what the vehicle held before being destroyed. Just to reflect this on some way.This would still make you want to protect your vehicles.

I am not sure about grenades as I have only recently been trying to see if that number decreases after some are used. It does not seem to so I am not sure if grenades actually do diminish after use. If they do, then grenades should also be an option (or you get some automatically if you acquire other ammo)

I like the "take 100" as I have some of my split squads with way too much ammo as 500 is the minimum that they can acquire. I am worried (but do not know if this is represented) that they will tire more easily if they have too much ammo on them.

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I am not sure about grenades as I have only recently been trying to see if that number decreases after some are used. It does not seem to so I am not sure if grenades actually do diminish after use. If they do, then grenades should also be an option (or you get some automatically if you acquire other ammo)

Nah they get used. The issue with grenades is the number you see is how many they will have left at the end of the turn. They do not count down properly as they are thrown but instead the number used in the turn is taken from the last turn's number right away. For example what you can see is a team with say 2 grenades and you give them orders to close assault a vehicle, say a half track. The next turn, right at the beginning, you will see the number of grenades they are carrying is zero. Then you watch the turn and see them throwing their two grenades destroying the half track.

Another minor issue that would be nice to see fixed.

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1. a vehicle (not just inside the vehicle), lets say 10 meters

That would be good - should be right next to the vehicle though. I find at times you cannot get into the same action square as the vehicle though so that would need to be addressed.

I also think this needs to be a command that takes some time rather than instantaneous as it is now. For example having a squad of 10 guys that are acquiring 1000 rounds of rifle amo and 200 rounds of SMG amo will take quite a lot longer to accomplish than a two man sniper team picking up 100 rounds of rifle amo.

A destroyed but not burning vehicle could be included perhaps with 1/2 of all ammo not available to abstract the possibility of having some not available.

Not sure I like this idea. Destroyed is destroyed. I know we don't have wrecked vehicle models but I can see how even a non burning vehicle would be pretty dangerous to be messing around it. Yes, mom, those are sharp rusty metal shards. Yes, mom, I'll stay away from it.

Immobilized though that I would like to see changed. Right now you cannot get into an immobilized vehicle to get goodies. Acquiring form immobilized vehicles should be possible.

2. other units within their company

If a company commander said to move that PIAT/PF from unit A to unit B, I would assume that it would be done. But keep the present system where this is done automatically for within the platoon. Only specific actions would allow moment of ammo between platoons (and only if within range - and would not allow actual weapons outside of AT weapons to be moved - so no MP40s all being moved to one unit or 1 squad with 8 MG42s as I do not think this is historically accurate though I may be wrong)

+1 for that. I have a game going right now where one squad is broken and they are the one with the bazooka. The rest of the platoon is OK. I really want to say "look if you will not get up there and shoot that immobilized tank, hand that tube over to corporal MacIntosh right this damn minute".

3. from a non-movable supply depot situated on the map

I have mixed feelings about this. I guess it would be cool but I kind of wonder if having amo in vehicles is enough. Given some improvements in the acquire command as we are discussing do we really need a crate on the ground. Now that I think about resupplying para troopers I take it back. It would be cool to have resupply crates show up as reinforcements (in the middle of a feild) so the paras could stock up.

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I would like to have each unit be able to acquire supplies if they are in range of

1. a vehicle (not just inside the vehicle), lets say 10 meters

I think the suggestion of "In the same action spot as vehicle is good". I like the idea of not having to actually embark on the vehicle -- this reduces unnecessary micromanagement monkey business where you can have a game of musical chairs with units jumping in and out of a vehicle to get resupplied, and also the inconvenience that you currently must split a small team off of a squad to get ammo out of a small vehicle like a Jeep; if a whole 12-man squad is standing next a a Jeep, for some reason they lack the ability to reach in the back and pull out ammo. I don't favor extending the distance much further than this, though.

A destroyed but not burning vehicle could be included perhaps with 1/2 of all ammo not available to abstract the possibility of having some not available.
Eh. In my book, if your truck gets shot up, you deserve to lose access to the ammo.

2. other units within their company [snip]
To play devil's advocate, junior officers did often have discretion as to who carried "special" weapons like bazookas, scoped rifles, SMGs, etc. One interesting example: In 1944 U.S. Rifle Bn. TOEs, there is no specification as to who carried SMGs; there are a number of Thompsons in the Battalion's weapons allotment, but their specific assignment was presumably discretionary. BFC's depiction of the Thompsons being carried by the Rifle Squad NCOs and mortar team leaders is a reasonable conjecture, but there's nothing to support this in the official TOEs. You could, for example, argue that there should be two SMGs/rifle squad, and that the mortar teams should have just carbines and rifles.

But regardless, I'm really not sure I like the idea of having to shuttle individual weapons around my squads during setup; setups take long enough as it is... I have a pretty high bar for adding new micromanagement to the game. I dunno... maybe in certain specific instances.

3. from a non-movable supply depot situated on the map
I think this is a good idea. Companies and Battalions did usually establish ammo resupply points where runners could go to pick up more ammo for their parent units. Functionally, you can do this in the game now with an out-of-the-way bunker or an immobilized vehicle, but visually a small "ammo cache" would be more appropriate in some situations. In urban fights, for example, an ammo resupply point inside a house might be more appropriate.

(could also include mortar bombs/demo charges if attached to the Battalion) and Regimental supply depots (everything within reason) with increasing levels of supply and weapons types. This may also solve the problem of resupplying the 7.92K bullet type.
Not sure how high ammo supply needs to go... the 7.92K issue definitely needs to be fixed in some way -- scenario designers at least need to have the option of including 7.92K resupply, if they want to. While I have only very rarely had teams run out, I can see the argument for hand grenade resupply. Light mortar shells like 60mm were usually in short supply at the "tip of the spear", which suggests to me they they should only rarely be a part of resupply caches, if at all. Not sure what else needs to be added to the "acquirable" list that isn't already there.

Can any of us think of other ways that a unit would resupply outside of buddy aid?
Others:

-- There needs to be some way for ammo bearer teams to "give" ammo to their associated heavy weapons teams before the weapons team runs completely dry. The current "ammo sharing" routine is insufficient in this instance. Certainly not game killer, but one of the more annoying "proud nails" that's still in the game engine, IMHO.

It was also raised in another thread that having a "take 100" option would be useful - as it stands, the first 1 or 2 units that go to the truck have to take 500 rounds which can be annoying.
+1. I've raised this before.

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It was also raised in another thread that having a "take 100" option would be useful - as it stands, the first 1 or 2 units that go to the truck have to take 500 rounds which can be annoying.

Agree in principle, but not in CM reality. They may as well load up to the max unless conserving ammo is a priority. There's a 'tiring' penalty for heavily laden troops. However, this penalty seems currently excessively mild, imo. Over several hundred meters teams *may* drop a level when schlepping huge amounts of stuff. It's scarcely noticeable. Quick moving uphill is more punitive.

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Agree in principle, but not in CM reality. They may as well load up to the max unless conserving ammo is a priority. There's a 'tiring' penalty for heavily laden troops. However, this penalty seems currently excessively mild, imo. Over several hundred meters teams *may* drop a level when schlepping huge amounts of stuff. It's scarcely noticeable. Quick moving uphill is more punitive.

It's just plain silly that if I want to resupply a 3-man scout team from a fully loaded truck they *must* take 500 rounds of rifle ammo if I want to resupply them at all. And the scout team usually only has 1-2 rifles. Even if all that ammo doesn't slow them down much (which it should), Acquiring is irreversible, so once the ammo is acquired by the Scout team, I can't ever shift it to any other team, except by "Ammo Sharing", if the other team happens to be within 2 action spots and in the same low-level formation as the scout team.

And it can definitely be an issue when you're trying to equitably distribute limited ammo amongst multiple teams. Let's say I have 2 German infantry platoons, and I want to load them up with extra SMG ammo from a nearby 251/1 halftrack (SMG ammo always seems to run out first!). The 251/1 carries 1000 rounds 9mm at full supply. The first squad into the halftrack *must* take 500 rounds 9mm ammo, leaving only 500 to distribute amongst the remaining 5 squads and two Plt. HQs. Definitely not ideal.

Note that you can use the Acquire command as many times as you want in succession, so if there's 1000 rounds of ammo X in a given vehicle/bunker, it would be far more useful to just have options of, say, 100, 300 & 500, rather than what the game currently presents, which is 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, er sumfink like that. If you really need all 1,000, you can always just select 500, twice.

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A static type of supply crate/dump would be good, especially for scenario builders and for longer battles.

I'd like to see the possibility of on-the-fly cache creation, so, for example, a ATG ammo bearer team could dump their shells at the "fallback" location. Or MG Ammo bearers could dump their belted ammo next to the MG for the firing team to use.

It was also raised in another thread that having a "take 100" option would be useful - as it stands, the first 1 or 2 units that go to the truck have to take 500 rounds which can be annoying.

Just having a "Take n" option where you can type in the number would be great.

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Oftentimes if an attacked was prepared additional grenades and other items were handed out. The ammo resupply point is an interesting one. Perhaps an ASP could be something that could be added or purchased in some battles?

It does bring up the question of what happens if the location gets shelled or if its in or near a building what happens if the building burns or colapses? I've heard bullets just pop if you have a stash and your home catches fire. Grenades and mortar rounds may be a different stort as well as Ww2 bullets which may have used less stable powder.

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7.92 if I'm not mistaken was used in the Germans Mausers and MG 34 and 42, but the Mausers used stripper clips and the MGs were belt fed.

Correct. However, for purposes of resupply, CMx2 does not track whether available ammo is in magazines, stripper clips, belts, or what have you; it's assumed to be in whatever form the acquiring unit needs. Not 100% realistic, but a reasonable abstraction considering that ammo could often be switched from one form to another with a little bit of manual work.

Clip/mag/belt size is tracked in CM for purposes of determining when a soldier needs to reload his weapon.

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You could, for example, argue that there should be two SMGs/rifle squad, and that the mortar teams should have just carbines and rifles.

IIRC, in the US army the guys who carried the tube and baseplate only had pistols. I don't remember what the guy carrying the bipod had, either a carbine or a Garand. The ammo carriers had carbines or Garands. I haven't checked other armies lately, but I think in the German army the gunner had only a pistol.

Companies and Battalions did usually establish ammo resupply points where runners could go to pick up more ammo for their parent units. Functionally, you can do this in the game now with an out-of-the-way bunker or an immobilized vehicle, but visually a small "ammo cache" would be more appropriate in some situations. In urban fights, for example, an ammo resupply point inside a house might be more appropriate.

In defensive positions usually a lot of ammo was cached where it was easily accessible. On attack it would have been on wheels or in extreme terrain on a pack animal or human bearers.

Michael

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If only the aquire screen would stay open or have a shift function to aquire multiple items so I do not have to waste time pressing aquire for multiple items. Example: Grab Piat/Grab Piat ammo/Grab .303 ammo/ Grab 9mm ammo.

Time consuming on the interface end.

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Ive asked Steve if we will get a supply dump for larger battles awhile ago in another thread and he agreed it was something he would like to see as well, so draw your own conclusions.

My suggestion was two trucks parked near each other with a tarp between them with some ammo boxes visible. When building a scenario you just stock it up with whats required. Also it doesnt move, ammo dumps didnt pack up in a hurry.

cheers

Stephen

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It's just plain silly that if I want to resupply a 3-man scout team from a fully loaded truck they *must* take 500 rounds of rifle ammo if I want to resupply them at all. And the scout team usually only has 1-2 rifles. Even if all that ammo doesn't slow them down much (which it should), Acquiring is irreversible, so once the ammo is acquired by the Scout team, I can't ever shift it to any other team, except by "Ammo Sharing", if the other team happens to be within 2 action spots and in the same low-level formation as the scout team.

And it can definitely be an issue when you're trying to equitably distribute limited ammo amongst multiple teams. Let's say I have 2 German infantry platoons, and I want to load them up with extra SMG ammo from a nearby 251/1 halftrack (SMG ammo always seems to run out first!). The 251/1 carries 1000 rounds 9mm at full supply. The first squad into the halftrack *must* take 500 rounds 9mm ammo, leaving only 500 to distribute amongst the remaining 5 squads and two Plt. HQs. Definitely not ideal.

Note that you can use the Acquire command as many times as you want in succession, so if there's 1000 rounds of ammo X in a given vehicle/bunker, it would be far more useful to just have options of, say, 100, 300 & 500, rather than what the game currently presents, which is 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, er sumfink like that. If you really need all 1,000, you can always just select 500, twice.

This. A thousand times: this.

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It's just plain silly that if I want to resupply a 3-man scout team from a fully loaded truck they *must* take 500 rounds of rifle ammo if I want to resupply them at all.

You're right. But, as I mentioned, there's minimal downside in game terms unless ammo levels are tight. It's analogous to the Hiding state for vehicles. The cost/benefit dilemma appears absent.

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Well we can only wait and see and if the BFC team have been able to put it in for MG then I for one would be happy.

Really I would be happy even if ammo dumps arnt in if they managed to squeeze in Flamethrowers or even bunkers with AT guns in them...or....and...oooo.

The list just goes on.

I'm not complaining at all and lets face it the engine and game are getting alittle better as the months go past....faster and faster as we get older....faster...older...yikes

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Flame weapons are definitely not in for MG; this has already been made clear by BFC.

Modules are primarily new units, terrain, scenarios and campaigns. If we're lucky, we'll get a few *minor* new features in the game engine as well. Fire and flame weapons would definitely be a *major* new game feature and as such well beyond the scope of a module; we almost certainly won't see added them until another major game release -- CM:Battle of the Bulge or CM:Bagration or something like that.

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You're right. But, as I mentioned, there's minimal downside in game terms unless ammo levels are tight. It's analogous to the Hiding state for vehicles. The cost/benefit dilemma appears absent.

And as was pointed out, this simply isn't true. A US jeep with 12 zook bombs requires that the first group to resupply takes 6, as a minimum. While it's possible, in the setup phase to cycle your units through in the right order, to get a relatively even distribution of the rounds, it's a bloody chore that could be avoided instantly by being able to specify how many rounds to pick up. Similarly, if you've got 4 teams that each want to take 500 rounds out of a 2000 round truck, the first two teams can take 500 (yay), but the second two teams have to take 400, 400, 100, 100. It's just daft. And ammo is always tight.

Sure, it's not going to break a game, probably, but it's just annoying, and makes for micromanagement hell.

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Since in wasn't mentioned yet I thought I'd put it out there that units can leech ammo from parked nearby vehicles, trucks and halftracks that I tested, without having to jump in and acquire. It seems to be in small quantities and piecemeal. An SMG that runs out will suddenly get another 30 rounds from the truck parked in the same AS. The rifle guys gets another 10 at a time. You can keep mortars resupplied just by parking a truck carrying mortar rounds in the same AS. They will resupply automatically.

I know this thread pertains to the actual act of Acquire vs set amount.

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Since in wasn't mentioned yet I thought I'd put it out there that units can leech ammo from parked nearby vehicles, trucks and halftracks that I tested, without having to jump in and acquire. It seems to be in small quantities and piecemeal. An SMG that runs out will suddenly get another 30 rounds from the truck parked in the same AS. The rifle guys gets another 10 at a time. You can keep mortars resupplied just by parking a truck carrying mortar rounds in the same AS. They will resupply automatically.

That's probably okay for mortars; I rarely move mine at all once the game starts. But it cuts into the mobility of your infantry and that's important. Even fighting on defense you might want to move your guys to take advantage of a tactical situation.

Michael

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Not sure I like this idea. Destroyed is destroyed. I know we don't have wrecked vehicle models but I can see how even a non burning vehicle would be pretty dangerous to be messing around it. Yes, mom, those are sharp rusty metal shards. Yes, mom, I'll stay away from it.

Immobilized though that I would like to see changed. Right now you cannot get into an immobilized vehicle to get goodies. Acquiring form immobilized vehicles should be possible.

The problem is that especially light vehicles have a very low threshold for becoming destroyed. 1 Bullet through the engine? Destroyed.

Its a two part equation for me. A light vehicle should be far more likely to be immobilised rather than destroyed.

Then you should be allowed to remount immobilised vehicles to use their weapons and remove ammo from them.

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Since in wasn't mentioned yet I thought I'd put it out there that units can leech ammo from parked nearby vehicles, trucks and halftracks that I tested, without having to jump in and acquire. It seems to be in small quantities and piecemeal. An SMG that runs out will suddenly get another 30 rounds from the truck parked in the same AS. The rifle guys gets another 10 at a time. You can keep mortars resupplied just by parking a truck carrying mortar rounds in the same AS. They will resupply automatically.

I know this thread pertains to the actual act of Acquire vs set amount.

Useful point, that. Vehicles will share with other units that highlight when you click them. If you've got an AT platoon with 4 trucks, though, they won't "share" their goodies with the infantry platoons, AFAIK. I've never tested this, since such trucks are always looted before the scenario starts, if possible, so they could be a special case in the rules on the restrictions of sharing.

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