II SS Panzer Corps was where on July 11, '43?

[John Kettler]

Am trying to find the location of II SS Panzer Corps as of dawn July 11, 1943 at Kursk. I have no reference books here with me and have read neither Nipe nor Zamulin on matters pertinent to my question. Any help from you grogs would be most appreciated. Anything along the lines of "continuing the attack in sector from X to Y on the Z axis" would be particularly valuable, as would knowing which Army, Rifle Division and Rifle Regiments were in the path of the continued offensive as well as which might've been smashed through or partially penetrated the day before. In the miracle category would be the location of the DAG for the RD in the path of the morning attack for July 11.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Stalins Organ]

Try here - http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/avenue/vy75/dbds11.htm

Edit: Also these guys did a table-top wargame starting on the 11th, so perhaps ask them for their setup info?? http://brigadatripeira.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/espimodel-2012-one-day-campaign-kursk.html

[Wicky]

Nazi A-Bomb–Where was it used?

From a military analysis perspective, it seems reasonable to seek to determine where the world’s most potent VBIED was probably delivered. I believe the answer lies in Map 27b above. There, if you look at the bottom edge of the second red box (force list) and go to the far right, you’ll find the military symbol for Hausser’s II SS Panzer Corps. SS black project weapon to support a key SS ground attack! Makes sense, right? So, I feel reasonably confident in asserting the Nazi A-bomb VBIED strike took place on the Voronezh Front, commanded by General Nikolai Vatutin, in the sector of II SS Panzer Corps.

*roll eyes*

[Sublime]

whaaat??? rofl

[Stalins Organ]

WTF did that come from??

[herr_oberst]

Am trying to find the location of II SS Panzer Corps as of dawn July 11, 1943 at Kursk. I have no reference books here with me and have read neither Nipe nor Zamulin on matters pertinent to my question. Any help from you grogs would be most appreciated. Anything along the lines of "continuing the attack in sector from X to Y on the Z axis" would be particularly valuable, as would knowing which Army, Rifle Division and Rifle Regiments were in the path of the continued offensive as well as which might've been smashed through or partially penetrated the day before. In the miracle category would be the location of the DAG for the RD in the path of the morning attack for July 11.

Regards,

John Kettler

Let me see what I can assemble this weekend. I have Nipe's "Decision in the Ukraine", and can try cross-referencing my Das Reich IV and Leibstandarte III volumes for that time period. Have no specific volumes on Totenkopf or the 167th ID.

It's late, so you'll have to help me with the meaning of "the DAG for the RD".

[Yeknodathon]

*roll eyes*

Hmmm interesting. Was that before or after the full-moon amphibious assault on Scunthorpe by the LSSAH tactical Finnish reinforced special psy-ops recon force?

[Michael Emrys]

I wonder if Wicky may have broken into your stash of loco weed.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Stalin's Organist,

Am familiar with the site and recently visited that page. What I'm trying to get a handle on is the width of the attack and against which Russian unit or units. My understanding is that as the penetration proceeded, the frontage got narrower and narrower, in order to screen the flanks.

Wicky,

Still haven't lost your ability to completely distort what I said by removing an item from its context.

Sublime, Stalin's Organist, Yeknodathon

I wrote a serious piece on my site in which I presented multiple credible evidences from both sides that a prototype German nuke was used at Kursk. Those sources include Academicians of the prestigious Russian Academy of Science and its Soviet predecessor, progeny of Operation Paperclip scientists, evidence from period documents, diplomatic cables and diaries, to include those of Operation Paperclip scientists. It's all there in my post or incorporated by reference. As it happens, the Germans had no suitable aerial delivery means, so it was sent over in a truck or maybe a halftrack.

herr_oberst,

Many thanks!

Michael Emrys,

For personal use only. Shall prosecute to the fullest extent of the law?!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

Michael Emrys,

For personal use only. Shall prosecute to the fullest extent of the law?!

Ahem. I was suggesting that Yeknod was the victim of this particularly heinous offense, since it is well known that he keeps a patch of loco weed in a Certain Corner of the paddock and is a heavy consumer of same. Which explains a number of things.

Michael

[Yeknodathon]

Bet he doesn't have Scunthorpe on his site, but I want to check anyway.

Erm, small point - erm, if a Nazi A-bomb VBIED, and I guess these are the nastiest, lowest qwitter kind with nasty smells and wotnot, were to be transported on a truck or halftrack I should think it would bounce around quite a lot and move from side to side when the truck or halftrack goes round corners. I wouldnt want to be the driver, that's for sure. And erm, on delivery, are we quite certain that the truck or halftrack would dash away in time. Yes, I know, small points perhaps but one has to take these things into account with a credible Nazi A-bomb VBIED option?

[JonS]

I wrote a serious piece on my site in which I presented multiple credible evidences from both sides that a prototype German nuke was used at Kursk.

ORLY?

I doubt you presented ANY evidence of that, whatsoever. It's just not your style. I am confident that your, uh, "serious piece" contained a ton of links to irrelevant side bars, or 'proof' of the blindingly obvious (like, oh, I don't know - evidence that nukes kill people and burn the survivors?), but actual verifiable evidence - such as GARF document references, or BAMA reference numbers, or named and identified extracts from validated personally held records - that the Germans used a nuke at Kursk? I bet that's a complete zero.

By the by, a nuclear weapon is probably about the least "improvised" explosive device one can imagine. But using a cool and current acronym like "VBIED" makes it sound like you know what you're babbling about, hey?

[John Kettler]

Michael Emrys,

I don't keep track of Yeknodathon's Jimson weed predilections, so I missed the allusion.

Yeknodathon,

While specific details are lacking, I'm fairly certain tie downs would've been used. Further, a 1-ton load in a vehicle rated for several (Opel Blitz was a 3 metric ton rated truck and probably the most common model in use by the Germans) is hardly a strain. The truck or halftrack was, as clearly stated in my post, driven by Jewish slave laborers who thought they'd escaped from the Germans. This was a cynically engineered escape with the twin virtues of killing Jews and Russians, while combat validating the weapon technology. This is all explained in my post.

JonS,

Clearly, you delight in exposing your own ignorance!

In law, contemporaneous diaries are considered prima facie evidence and in historiography, are considered primary sources. Your own statement shows you haven't bothered to read the nearly 3000-word post, which not only contains a wealth of material, but which also points the reader to a considerable body of supporting research done by others. The diplomatic cables I mentioned were dispatches sent by Baron Oshima, Japan's consul in Germany, to Japan. These dispatches have proved a rich vein for historians and were quite the intelligence bonanza to the wartime Allies, seeing as how they were sent in the diplomatic code PURPLE, which we'd long since cracked. But don't take my word; read what the NSA said in a summary of Baron Oshima's cryptologic contributions.

"(U) Oshima's reports gave the United States its only authentic information about combat on the Russo-German front."

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/crypto_almanac_50th/baron_oshimas_contributions.pdf

So, let's apply Occam's razor to the problem, shall we?

In order to determine what happened on the Eastern Front regarding the apparent construction, deployment and use of a first attempt nuclear weapon by the Germans at Kursk we should:

1. Pay attention to the cables of Baron Oshima, to the Russian demarche to Germany, to the testimony of the Operation Paperclip scientists to their progeny and the contemporaneous documents, diaries and even radiation-fogged photos (result of nuke work exposure to film shot of other black projects) in some cases. Additionally, we have evidence in the form of information the Kursk nuke strike was long known in top Russian scientific circles. And these are over and above declassified Top Secret intel debriefs, the direct testimony of eyewitnesses, photo reconnaissance imagery of one test area and even a Jewish slave laborer who had to go into the strike zone of a live fire test and deal with the awful human aftermath of a nuclear detonation to perform cleanup.

OR

Your perpetual knee-jerk, panties in a twist animus toward me and any and all information which doesn't fit your very narrow model of what's possible, therefore acceptable to you?

Hmm.

Now, to address the other matter, I'd like to point out that I'm not writing a paper intended for presentation to the National Security Council. Rather, I'm trying to present a very complex and emotionally fraught important matter to a readership of high school level and up. "Up" may be deemed to include senior officials in both the Intelligence Community and the Pentagon. Some read my posts because they choose to; others read them because their bosses order them to. The latter is called "by direction."

I used "VBIED" because a) it's a term which should be familiar to many; because the weapon WAS delivered by a vehicle and c) because the Nazi A-Bomb was in fact a crude handbuilt prototype, not the product of any serial production effort. In point of fact, from the best info I've seen and heard, it was the very first German nuclear detonation ever, preceding official German test shots by a year or more. Had you read my post, you'd know the well attested German Trinity type shots beat the U.S. by a year or so. Therefore, the Nazi A-Bomb used at Kursk was indeed improvised.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

herr_oberst,

Forgot to tell you that DAG means Divisional Artillery Group. In this case, that means the ZIS-3 76mm guns of the divisional medium batteries and the 122mm M1938 howitzers of the divisional heavy batteries. See, for example, Figure 13 of this study Glantz did of Russian defenses at Kursk as regards location of the DAG.

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/glantz2.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

[Stalins Organ]

John your article does not actually quote any of the primae facie evidence you say you have. NONE OF IT!

You don't even link to any of it.

Instead all your links are to summaries of books that make claims.

for someone who claims to have a "wealth of material" you do not even manage to "point(s) the reader to a considerable body of supporting research done by others" at all.

JonS is perfectly correct to doubt you.

[Yeknodathon]

Might have evaporated quite a large chunk of LSSAH. Might have left a big hole and created interesting squirrels that glow in the dark, might make particle detectors that measures ionizing radiation spaz out with lots of "click-click-clickcliclickikikikikikikikikikikkkikiikik" noises and, I should think this is the real proof, a whole plethora of Soviet-inspired video FPS games based on the strange evolving life forms from the Kursk area INCLUDING Nazis. And I don't see 'em John. Nope, none. I check Steam every day.

[Yeknodathon]

PS I really think we need more info on the LSSAH tie downs used on an Opel Blitz. I contend quite strongly that a tactical nuke bouncing around in the back of a truck would prematurely detonate and cause a quite significant military traffic jam when things were getting interesting in the Kursk area?

[sburke]

I think someone has been exposed to too much radiation - hint- it wasn't anyone near Kursk in 1943....

JK's statement

This all but incomprehensible story, as seen here in the West, really became a big deal when Joseph Farrell burst onto the scene with his seminal Reich of the Black Sun (hereafter, ROBS), a book so utterly devastating to the Standard Model of History that after reading it, I was in a veritable daze for two weeks! At a stroke, everything I thought I knew (via reading and Dad), had been taught (in Grades 1-12 and specialized college courses), or even read in classified nuclear weapon documents during my former career as a professional military analyst for Hughes and Rockwell, went not only straight out the window, but clear off the planet!

oops wait a sec - FAIR USE! Whew I'm safe.

Who is Joseph Farrell that he could burst onto the scene with such a devastating tale? Obviously he must have amazing access to secret documents and contacts deep inside various intelligence communities or maybe the Templars -

Joseph Patrick Farrell is an American theologian, scholar on the East–West Schism and the author of a number of books on alternative history, history, historical revisionism, archaeology, and science/physics.

Biography Born and raised in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, Farrell is Adjunct Professor of Patristic Theology and Apologetics at California Graduate School of Theology, an unaccredited Christian institution of higher learning in La Habra, CA.

Additionally, he is an organist, plays the harpsichord and is a composer of classical music.

Wait? An Organist? That is like his closest tie to this story.. and only because we have a poster named Stalinist's Organist and Stalin was the Soviet leader- yeah that's a good enough reason!

Now I need to go flush my brain out from the assault on my reasoning capacity by clicking that link. Curse you Stalin's Organist!!

[Stalins Organ]

Dang...I'm busted....:eek:

:cool:

[Yeknodathon]

I'm quite ready to concede that LSSAH get the better, more improved tie downs rather the normal Heer tie downs. If we are suggesting they used some secret super tie downs perhaps, I suggest tentatively, taken from alien Reptiloid technology as I should think they are quite advanced in tie down things which we can only but imagine - I think we would require all the data needed for a calm and reasoned analysis of LSSAH tie down capabilities cross-referenced with their starting positions at dawn on that fateful day?

[JonS]

If that's true, Yeknod, how are we to be sure that the point the secret-super-strong-alien-reptoid-tie-downs are attached to would be strong enough to hold the thing securely ... unless the the tie-down-point also made use of secret super reptoid alien technology?

[Yeknodathon]

Dang...I'm busted....:eek:

:cool:

UNMASK YOURSELF - REPTILOID!

[Yeknodathon]

Well JonS, ain't we cookin'? You make a fab point that gets us nearer the truth and I'm just getting so excited because together, in our little alternative history huddle - we shall shine forth and restore.. er.. something.

Now, not for me to steal anyone's thunder, or ahem.. VBIED boom, I should think that our Nazi LSSAH Opal truck isn't what it seems? How else can we explain how it trundles along at optimum Opal speeds to the massed ranks of Soviet lines of prepared defence in strength un-molested? May be it was camo-ed? May be it was real stealthy and invisible? May be it was cunningly disguised as an ice cream van and had a little jingle to allow it to pass undetected? As we will be reminded, if we examine and the discount everything then we must really have to accept what is left even if it is the most unlikely and surprising things.

I need not have to remind you, JonS, eminent Grog that you are, that you should need to prepare to adjust your historical assumptions quite radically? Just a friendly re-direction to get with the program... we appreciate your continuing assistance in this matter.

[JonS]

How else can we explain how it trundles along at optimum Opal speeds to the massed ranks of Soviet lines of prepared defence in strength un-molested? May be it was camo-ed? May be it was real stealthy and invisible? May be it was cunningly disguised as an ice cream van and had a little jingle to allow it to pass undetected?

I suspect that it most likely had a jaunty yet invisible stealth jingle! It may even have been a jungle jingle ... although that would be hard to camouflage on a steppe. Or a step.

Edit: And icecream. Probably hokey-pokey.

[Yeknodathon]

Psyops JonS those SS Nazis had everything, that little jingle would wipe whole divisions from the battlefield. With that as a spear point... *shudder*