Operational Level Game Announcement

[Broadsword56]

Hi,

If I had a play room, were the game could be setup for long periods of time, then yes. But I do not. That is where PzC comes in. With the flexibility of its editor, the maps and units you can use it as a computerised broad game. Of course, that is what PzC is, it’s computerised SPI games .

Yes, but that's also where the computer aids VASSAL, Cyberboard, and Zun Tzu come in. They're all I ever use. I haven't set up a physical wargame board and counters since the mid-1980s. I don't have the space or time to leave a game set up either. But it's those digital aids that took me back to boardgames, because they make the experience so much easier to manage -- not to mention the ease today of finding opponents online if you don't want to play them solo.

[Lt Belenko]

1. Best of luck. Hope it works out.

2. Hope it runs on droid not just apple.

3. Beta testers needed? Just kidding.

[Battlefront.com]

When I first saw “App...” I did assume it would be PC friendly. Then got the impression that it was not to be PC friendly.

It can be a confusing thing so that's why I clarified. There's nothing choppinlt is planning on doing that would preclude PC/Mac versions. Unlike Combat Mission Touch, where the intensity of the UI is such that having a desktop version would be a massive headache for us and almost certainly not worth it financially.

All sounds good to me, Steve made clear years ago he was no great fan of the idea.. in fact even before CMC,

To be clear, I think the idea is great as an abstract concept. I only make the "I just bit into the most sour lemon of all time" look on my face when I think about being the one to do it It really does require someone like choppinlt who has the fire and dedicated brainwaves to see it through.

So if choppint gets his game going then BFC will make a tie in (=interface) for CM?

That's the plan. There's a lot of incentive for us to support a product which is real and being actively used. But until both of those things happen, the incentive to divert development resources simply isn't there.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

1. Best of luck. Hope it works out.

2. Hope it runs on droid not just apple.

3. Beta testers needed? Just kidding.

Fortunately there's really nothing complicated about the ability of supporting many OSes. I think CM Touch currently supports 6 OSes?? and a wide range of hardware. The trick is only releasing/supporting for OSes that make sense. iOS and Android are no-brainers, so too are PC/Mac IMHO. Ultimately choppinlt will decided what needs to be supported.

Steve

[kohlenklau]

I don't think I want this COO thing. Sorry.

My gut feeling is I'd rather have support sent towards Noob.

John Tiller Panzer Campaigns has 21 titles. I own one of them, Bulge 44. I enjoyed it. But mostly I play CMBN. Noob has like 1500 posts and has been around since 2004 and seems to have put in a lot of effort for free. So, no offense, choppinlt (40 posts since 2008) slowly releases new op layer titles we pay for? AND we pay for the development? First COO and then one for Sicily?

At least if I go with Noob and buy various Tillers PzC games I can enjoy them separately or with some manual inputs enjoy them with CM.

Also, I have 3 cell phones in my family, Mom has the fancy one, 1 simple one for the kids and Dad has the tail end charlie.

I want to sit at my PC and fire up a program or 2 or 3 and not need some other device.

[tdogg]

I don't think I want this COO thing. Sorry.

My gut feeling is I'd rather have support sent towards Noob.

John Tiller Panzer Campaigns has 21 titles. I own one of them, Bulge 44. I enjoyed it. But mostly I play CMBN. Noob has like 1500 posts and has been around since 2004 and seems to have put in a lot of effort for free. So, no offense, choppinlt (40 posts since 2008) slowly releases new op layer titles we pay for? AND we pay for the development? First COO and then one for Sicily?

At least if I go with Noob and buy various Tillers PzC games I can enjoy them separately or with some manual inputs enjoy them with CM.

Also, I have 3 cell phones in my family, Mom has the fancy one, 1 simple one for the kids and Dad has the tail end charlie.

I want to sit at my PC and fire up a program or 2 or 3 and not need some other device.

Don't buy it then.

I like noobs system too, but there is no support for single player and that's what I play.

COO is a blessing for me, I have been dreaming for something like this for a decade.

The mobile app avenue is genius, I can have my iPad right next to my pc as I play out the generated cm battles.

I will definately support this with crowd funding and from the many posts of others in this thread it seems many will as well.

And the possibility of BF creating a link directly to cm if the game takes off is just priceless.

My prediction is it will be successful, and BF will end up supporting the app which will lead to more apps for all the various cm games.....it will be gaming bliss. I can't wait...standing by for a kickstarter link.

[SlowMotion]

This project sounds interesting. Will follow its development for sure.

Just one thing I want to say right now: please make sure that the small display of current mobile devices does not limit COO. PCs with bigger screens are a much better tool for things like this, because they allow you to view big maps etc. So if possible allow UI to adjust to screen size so the extra pixels can be put to use.

[kohlenklau]

@tdogg,

Right now I would say I probably will not buy it. Although I am still getting up to speed on the various issues involved and might have misunderstood, you said that single player is not supported by noob's system? Gosh, I am FINALLY moving away from playing against the stinking AI opponent . I am happy to say I am on my 6th or 7th PBEM battle and enjoying using H2H Helper. I think to fight against a strategic AI might be a step backward, at least for me. No sweat. If it works for you, enjoy it. I sincerely wish it all the best. I was just giving my gut reaction.

[sburke]

Yes, but that's also where the computer aids VASSAL, Cyberboard, and Zun Tzu come in. They're all I ever use. I haven't set up a physical wargame board and counters since the mid-1980s. I don't have the space or time to leave a game set up either. But it's those digital aids that took me back to boardgames, because they make the experience so much easier to manage -- not to mention the ease today of finding opponents online if you don't want to play them solo.

Weelll I actually mounted the SEiH map and have it ready to hang on my wall and markup with erasable marker to track the OP sheet plans. I however have no intention of setting up the game pieces. Odds are I will eventually replace that game map with reprints of the aerial photos I will use as overlays to make my map. In effect all I will use from the game is the rules and OoB.

Not to rain on the parade but the number of people who will invest substantially in this project is likely not enough to support the effort Choppinlt is investing. I'd love to be proven wrong but after listening to the uproar about paying $10 for the 2.0 upgrade I'm a bit skeptical.

What would really work for me is if BF would have the ability to take a save or completed game and import that into the scenario editor along with the map incl damage. That I'd pay $100 for as an upgrade today.

[mjkerner]

I figure I'd I would use both choppinIt's system against the AI and Broadsword's board game system in multiplayer.

@sburke, I thought it was gonna be Where Eagles Dare and Devils Cauldron for the MG campaign. Guess I missed the change to SEiH?

@kip, I really like "broad games"....;-)

[sburke]

@sburke, I thought it was gonna be Where Eagles Dare and Devils Cauldron for the MG campaign. Guess I missed the change to SEiH?

No change, this is strictly my own experiment to see about using the TCS OP plans as a C2 layer determinant.

The plan for that monster game is I believe still on.

[kohlenklau]

ok, as a public service I will be the devil's advocate punching bag for a few more posts, by the way, brought to you by "Woodchuck Hard Cider (Amber)", serve cold, 5% alc/vol, Middlebury, Vermont.

It sounds like we are gonna reinvent the wheel, or are we not? Are we re-doing art work and maps of the entire Cotentin Peninsula? A whole new op layer game with sound effects and artwork and meaningfulness that somebody can be proud of? Or just some data table puncher-outer? I THINK Tiller uses Ron Volstad artwork. Maybe he cut a deal and that is all legit for non-commercial mod usage. It looks sweet to me. I just started the PzC Normandy 44 demo and it seems AOK to me. Sound effects, art, UI. I haven't played it in a long long time but it came back quickly. No new system to learn or re-invent.

So, if noob had single player supported somehow, then tdogg you are happy? If we give $$$ to get something going, should it not be directly to BFC versus to a wheel reinventer?

Maybe I just don't understand the gist here. I will eat my hat.

[76mm]

Last thing to say is about our support of some feature to automatically transpose data from CM to the strategic app and back again. It's something we are only willing to attempt if there is a proven audience for this thing in the first place. CMC, as you know, didn't work out and we lost our investment in that. We are understandably cautious with our time and so this sort of "you build it and we will come" arrangement we struck with choppinlt.

I can totally understand your caution about spending resources on data import/export, but I was serious about starting a kickstarter project just for this. I have no idea how difficult this would be, but personally I'd be willing to kick in quite a bit of money. So rather than re-inventing the wheel by inventing an op layer that may or may not later allow data import/export, why not let us just pay you enough to get the data import/export?

The op layer itself can be tackled in any number of ways, from board games to Panzer Campaigns to whatever, but if we have to import/export data from CXx2 manually, the op layer will never work well.

[kohlenklau]

Perhaps Steve and choppinlt could meet with noob in a public place, say a restaurant? to discuss business...

[tdogg]

@kohlenklau

I would be just as excited if PzC was the chosen template for the project, but your talking about software owned buy another company. Not sure how we could ever get hps to agree to collaborate with bf to link the 2 games.

I'm thinking that bf wants to test the water with this indie development, then decide on if they should support it based on it's success / potential. They want to minimize risk, and continue with the scheduled money making module output.

I do like the idea that sburke and 76mm brought up about an import / export function with save game editing and persistent map features paid by kickstarter. This would open up all sorts of games to use.

I'm thinking that COO is the closest thing we will get with Bf support, so I want to support it so it can evolve to a point we all want it to be at.

[sburke]

I do like the idea that sburke and 76mm brought up about an import / export function with save game editing and persistent map features paid by kickstarter. This would open up all sorts of games to use.

Just to clarify, I was not advocating an export/import function outside the scenario editor. I realize that would certainly help for a potential OP layer game, but I was shooting for something that is much more in my mind anyway, realistic. If the final turn (or maybe any saved turn) could be opened in the scenario editor it would allow for doing some fun things with the manual OP layers we already have. I expect maybe from BF's standpoint they'd prefer for handling potential abuse not wanting just any save, but if at least the end game could be ported into the editor it would be pretty sweet.

[sburke]

Perhaps Steve and choppinlt could meet with noob in a public place, say a restaurant? to discuss business...

Leave the gun,take the cannoli

[mjkerner]

Perhaps Steve and choppinlt could meet with noob in a public place, say a restaurant? to discuss business...

And no one goes to the John!

[A Canadian Cat]

I can totally understand your caution about spending resources on data import/export, but I was serious about starting a kickstarter project just for this.

+1 here

The op layer itself can be tackled in any number of ways, from board games to Panzer Campaigns to whatever, but if we have to import/export data from CXx2 manually, the op layer will never work well.

Exactly.

[A Canadian Cat]

@kohlenklau

I would be just as excited if PzC was the chosen template for the project, but your talking about software owned buy another company. Not sure how we could ever get hps to agree to collaborate with bf to link the 2 games.

Which gets back to the part I do not understand. PzC is open enough to allow you to integrate it with other games already. There is no involvement needed by the publisher if their input output format is open for use by the gamer.

If BFC creates an ability to take input (in a format / method of their own choosing) to create a battle and produce output from the results of a battle they they will have an open game that allows it to be hooked to an operational layer.

What COO is proposing to do is create a new operational game with an open interface to allow tactical resolution using a game like CM. on top of that @choppinlt is planning to do that without any firm commitment from BFC that they will create what is needed in CM.

To me it seems that just gets us to the exact point were already are right now.

Like I said it feels like I am missing something here because what I have outlined above makes very little sense, and I know for a fact that the people involved in this discussion are pretty damn smart. Please fill me in - what am I missing?

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Do remember that the operational game itself in PzC is very dated, and in my view not very good. It is turn based with all that “fire..” combat which has no place in an operational game.

As a resource the maps, the units and the flexibility of the editor, you can edit during a turn and such, plus the number of settings make PzC a great resource. But if you look at the start of this thread and reread the list of features planned for COO it is in a different stratosphere to PzCs .

COO would be the ideal companion game. Not surprisingly either as it would be designed from scratch to be just that .

All good stuff,

All the best,

Kip.

[76mm]

Hi,

Do remember that the operational game itself in PzC is very dated, and in my view not very good. It is turn based with all that “fire..” combat which has no place in an operational game.

**************

COO would be the ideal companion game. Not surprisingly either as it would be designed from scratch to be just that .

PzC is really more of a "grand-tactical" rather than "operational" game. Hexes are a kilometer across, it would be strange not to have "fire" combat at that scale. I just got into this series fairly recently, and also thought at first that it was a very dated system. That said, the games represent a well-thought, well-designed system which is very stable and which are still being produced (and old games updated) many many years since the series began. And as far as I know it is the ONLY operational level game in which game data is in unencrypted plain text files.

COO would only be the "ideal companion game" if it turns out to be a good stand-alone op game (which is what it will be initially) and if then it later gets the CM functionality (which appears far from certain).

[Fizou]

Hi,

Do remember that the operational game itself in PzC is very dated, and in my view not very good. It is turn based with all that “fire..” combat which has no place in an operational game.

As a resource the maps, the units and the flexibility of the editor, you can edit during a turn and such, plus the number of settings make PzC a great resource. But if you look at the start of this thread and reread the list of features planned for COO it is in a different stratosphere to PzCs .

COO would be the ideal companion game. Not surprisingly either as it would be designed from scratch to be just that .

All good stuff,

All the best,

Kip.

With PzC there is also the option to just skip the fire phase, if one wants. Personaly I think it has its place.

COO should ofcourse aim at being better and in all ways cater to fitt with CM. Id love to see it succeed and Id put in money for development as well.

[JonS]

That said, the games represent a well-thought, well-designed system which is very stable and which are still being produced (and old games updated) many many years since the series began. And as far as I know it is the ONLY operational level game in which game data is in unencrypted plain text files.

I'm not sure about "well thought out." It's reasonably coherent, but there are some odd design decisions (removing the 'AIvsAI' play because one nutsac tried playing the campaign that way and complained about the asinine ineffectualness of the AI more was especially odd). But the rest of what you say is correct.

The thing that puts me off about the whole system is it's so trivially easy to cheat, that it's possible to do so by accident. There is no check to ensure that both sides are using the same .oob file, and the editable files aren't 'baked' into the PBEM file when a game is started. This means that if we were playing a game I could - for example - alter my .oob file so that all my units were invincible behemoths, while all yours were milksops.

[76mm]

I'm not sure about "well thought out." It's reasonably coherent, but there are some odd design decisions...

yeah, "coherent" is probably the better word to use...

The thing that puts me off about the whole system is it's so trivially easy to cheat, that it's possible to do so by accident. There is no check to ensure that both sides are using the same .oob file, and the editable files aren't 'baked' into the PBEM file when a game is started. This means that if we were playing a game I could - for example - alter my .oob file so that all my units were invincible behemoths, while all yours were milksops.

Good point, and the unencrypted text files would make it fairly easy to cheat--just by editing the text file you could replace your losses in that Tiger battalion, etc. On the other hand though, I think that these games are generally played by adults, and cheating (at least intentional cheating) shouldn't be a major concern, at least outside of ladder competitions, etc.

To be clear, I don't think that PzC is perfect, just that it could be better than than a new mobile app that might never integrate with CMx2 in any event.