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numdydar

China unit builds

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You really need to restrict China to only build infantry. The AI is building all sorts of units that the Chinese were totally incapable of building, much less have the doctrine to actually use. I have two tanks, artillery, AA guns, etc. that the Chinese have built :eek: They should not be able to research any of these types of units either.

So something else for the patch :)

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You would want these units, even if it was totally outside of any reality in the real war? Also the US did NOT supply the Chinese with tanks, AA, etc. They had enough trouble just getting basic goods to China, much less the kind of support China would need to be able to actual use more advanced equipment like this. Look at the actual order of battle the Chinese had in the war and see how many tank corps they had.

I would much prefer a game that has historical probalities, not outright science fiction :)

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I aggree to the doubts about unrealistic weapons for China.

But for the Players, who wants to have such things, it would maybe a solution to unlock building these units only when the Soft Build Limits game option is activated?

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You would want these units, even if it was totally outside of any reality in the real war? Also the US did NOT supply the Chinese with tanks, AA, etc...

Yes, that is the point. Historically they did not but the could cause they had the assets. It is always the discussion that the war didn't go that way thus it must not go that way in the game.

Again I understand your point of view but I disagree! I don't want to repeat history in any case I wanna play a bit more flexible. Maybe the number of units could be reduced but I don't want to play only with chinese divisions (and no other units). That is boring.

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Actually the Chinese could have had tanks if the Soviets had decided to give them some. A variant I have used in a scenario is that if the Chinese have been driven right back to near the Soviet border and the USSR is not yet defeated then there is a DE which allows Soviet Volunteers in the form of Chinese tank units to come and help their comrades. I do allow the Japanese AI to decide whether or not this should be treated as an act of war by the USSR.

I do agree, however, that if the Japanese had reduced the US aid to what could be flown over the hump then it is somewhat unrealistic to think that tanks could have arrived by air.

Regards

Mike

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Exactly that is what the game option Soft Build Limits is for.

I disagree, the Soft Build Limits only soften the transition to the limits. This is a strategy game and not a simulation what really happened. There might be some options in history like "what if" but that things never happened. But the could. What if the research give the opportunity to one side or the other. What if Japan build up the A-Bomb first or Germany? I guess some of you are too determined in mind. Take the new campaign "Invasion America". That really never could happened for sure but it is fun to play. Same for China, I want some options to change history not repeat it.

Please, Hubert and Bill, do not close any options.

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People that say the Chinese could have made (and used) tanks if they had wanted them do not really understand the Chinese capabilities in WWII. Here is a breif explaination of their historical capabilities. Either SC is a realistic simulation of the capabilities of the various opposing forces in WWII or it is a science fiction game. The designers need to decide which one it should be. I know the one I will continue to buy :)

By 1941, the Chinese position was precarious. The largest forces opposing the Japanese were the Nationalists led by Chiang Kai-Shek, but the foreign military aid they had been receiving in the 1930s had dried up because of the war in Europe. Chiang’s forces were badly trained, badly disciplined and badly equipped. Their loyalty was questionable. The truce with their Communist rival, the CCP, was fragile. Both sides seemed more intent on maintaining control in their own territory than in fighting the Japanese. Both were expecting and preparing for a fresh civil war as soon as Japan was defeated. Many of Chiang’s men also held allegiances to local warlords.

In February 1942, when Congress approved a 500 million dollar loan to China, Roosevelt described China as the US’s main ally against Japan. Chiang Kai-Shek was enchanted to now be described as one of the ‘Big Four’ Allied war-leaders. General ‘Vinegar Joe’ Stillwell became Chiang’s Chief of Staff, as well as commander of US forces in China, Burma and India. Chiang believed China would be the centre of US efforts against Japan.

The reality was different. Difficulties in sending supplies, British reservations, general concern about Chiang’s motives, and the urgency of operations in the Pacific and elsewhere meant that China did not become a theatre of main effort for the Allies. Stillwell’s mission to improve the efficiency of Chiang’s forces and turn the tide against the Japanese proved difficult. Chiang, Stillwell and Chennault disagreed fiercely over how to use the limited aid that could be flown in from India across the ‘Hump’ (the Himalayan mountains). To the frustration of Chinese Communists and Nationalists, the beginning of Pacific offensives in 1943 meant that US strategy ceased to depend upon China. The priority given to aid for China plummeted.

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People that say the Chinese could have made (and used) tanks if they had wanted them do not really understand the Chinese capabilities in WWII. Here is a breif explaination of their historical capabilities. Either SC is a realistic simulation of the capabilities of the various opposing forces in WWII or it is a science fiction game. The designers need to decide which one it should be. I know the one I will continue to buy :)

I don't think anyone disagrees on the real life facts... but that doesn't mean it couldn't have happend. The text mainly states that the allies decided not to send enough support there for it to become a main front. The player might decide otherwise though...

The SC series is quite abstract with it's presentation of china as a single nation anyway, so I have to admit I don't mind such a 'detail' that much.

I think the idea of a US/Soviet funded tank unit by decision event sounds good. In this case one could set the soft built limit for china to 0. After all the historic 200th Division was organised by the soviets and, if I'm not mistaken, the US did send tanks to china aswell.

But I personally really like "what if" possibilities - what kind of fun comes from merely repeating history? :)

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I do not want a repeat of history since we all know how that turned out lol. But I do want to face the same issues the leaders of the time faced. So if I play the Allies, I want China to have the same forces they would have had to see if what I do makes a difference. I do not want to have units/tech they had no way of getting in the real war. Might as well have alians land and give them all phasers since the Chinese developing a tank infrastructure and the doctorine to use them is just as likely.

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I get that. However the chinese nationalist army did use tanks, admittedly not on the same scale but it certainly wasn't an 'alien' concept to them. The SC series is quite abstract in it's presentation of the war, so it doesn't disturb me. I mean there is a romanian tank army. Also the "Brandenburger" Regiment as a SF unit that takes up as much space as a tank army.... so a single tank unit for china isn't that drastic in my opinion.

I think you have a valid point - it's just that a) personally I don't think it was impossible (though certainly unlikely) B) it's an abstract wargame. But yeah, I get your point... ;)

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Remember the scale of a 'tank' unit in the game. It not just a few aromred car running around. A tank unit represents a Tank Corp :eek: The Chinese had ONE Mech Div in the entire war.

After the Germans left, the Soviet Union started to support the Nationalists. The Soviets came in and began to provide Soviet advisers and Soviet tanks arrived in China for the first time in March 1938.[7] The National Revolutionary Army facing Japanese forces had only a small number of armoured vehicles and mechanised troops formed in the three armoured battalions to defend a large front. After these battalions were mostly destroyed in the Battle of Shanghai and Battle of Nanjing, new tanks, armoured cars and trucks from the Soviet Union and Italy made it possible to create the only mechanized division in the army. The Soviet advisers organized a mechanised unit in China, the 200th Division, which consisted of one tank regiment and one motorised infantry regiment.

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I am not arguing that. The scale of a tank unit certainly is bigger than everything the chinese nationalists fielded in real life as a unit. However the same is true for the romanian tank unit - consequently it would also have to be removed.

Now as far as I'm aware the unit doesn't even represent a single tank corps (propably about 120 - 200 tanks for Soviets, 200 - 300 for germans) but a tank group of serval tank corps. I'd guess that would be around 300 - 600 tanks. (The 200th Div. had around 100 tanks according to the source you quoted from)

Also from the same 'wiki' article you quoted:

Soon relations were made with the USA who only slowly began to (officially) provide help and 233 U.S. M24 light tanks were acquired by the Nationalists when America entered the war along with some 48 M3A3, M5A1 Stuart tanks in Lend/Lease from the USA in 1943, and 35 M4 Sherman tanks were acquired under the United States Military Assistance Program between 1943 and 1944.

So the amount of tanks delivered by the US alone would be around 300. That's why I consider it not 'impossible' to form such a unit... these tanks were certainly spread thin in real life, but the possibility to send more and concentrate them would have existed. Feel free to correct me in this matter though.... Also in game terms: China can't afford to do research for the tanks so the effect of the unit is not that big...it will stay a 'light' tank group forever. But I'm afraid we propably won't totally agree on this matter. Even though even I think there should be a clear decision event to finance this unit through the US. ;)

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Not sure where this actually matters. Like a few have written it would of been possible for tanks to be given to the Chinese if the political will was somewhat different. As is they are useless against the Japanese as you will not anytime soon be getting anywhere near 5 tech as it is needed elsewhere and money very short for the Chinese.

Against the computer it is good to have as many units as they can as they still get beat in 43' in my games.

Against a human I see no way that someone would invest in them to make any real use of them.

The Chinese did have various tanks and armored cars purchased and given during and before the war from the Russians, Brits, and Americans but never in large quantities. Neither did the Japanese but they are able to build up to level 5 in this game with 3 tank corp if they so desire.

Again about possibilities if pursued which I have no problem with the Japanese either if they go this route.

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One thing to bear in mind in the discussion is that a Chinese Tank Group will not have the same combat capability as a British or US one serving in South East Asia or the Pacific.

Nor for that matter will a Japanese Tank Group, as they have slightly lower combat values in this game.

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