Money back.

[Michel5656]

This concerns both AoC and AoD.

AoC: Briefly speaking it's a matter of very weak AI and of balance between German and Russian sides due I think to a lack of skill concerning the story of the Eastern Front. Second, SC is a strategic game and not really interesting with operational scenarios; AoC has only operational scenarios which further don't take into account the "other fronts". The concept of key cities is not accurate I think; against Russia there was no " key city", it was a battle to death. Tell me where are new units, new sprites ? In summary all of this is more or less like the anterior numerous so called Gold or Add_on versions. The same applies more or less to AoD. Concerning AoD, who cares to have a "giant" map when 95% is useless ?

Consequently I"m asking for my 50$ back, in exchange I'll send you back the downloaded files. :mad:

[Amadeus]

Why did you downlaoded it first? I mean you have SC Global Conflict and played it, don't you? You know before what you get. Here are some AAR's and a AoC Demo from 2013-06-03.

If I am not sure about a game I play the demo or watch some articles or both.

Compare to Global Conflict the new Addons are fairly better than before. They are worth the money they costs. If you are watching for better pics or a new gameplay you may watch out to other products. But I doubt if you will find some.

[Isnogud]

I think it was quite clear that this is an Add-on with new scenarios and some improvements on the base engine.

You could argue that both Addons could have been merged together and then sold for 30$.

But if you buy the bundle it's only 10$ difference.

I'm glad that the developers at Battlefront enhance the basic game with Addons and patches. Since these titles are no million sellers you cant expect that you'll get the Addons for free.

[brianlala]

It sounds like you are unhappy with the level of difficulty & abstraction that Battlefront uses in these games.

May I suggest upping the difficulty level if you are playing solo. I think the AI is not good when the difficulty is set at the standard intermediate+ no experience bonus but I get a good match out of the AI when the difficulty is at advanced + 1/2 star experience bonus. Try something like that before you dismiss the difficulty.

I'll leave my comments regarding the abstraction of the scenarios because there's no real way to argue for or against that.

[crispy131313]

What lack of story concerning the eastern front are you referring to? The developers usually have their ears open and are listening to community feedback, so if you can make a solid argument to an omission you will sometimes see it addressed in a future patch.

[CSS]

The best part of these games are the player MODS that eventually come out. Yes the game as is, is truly 95% size wise useless. However once some of the superb player mods come out the map become 90% very relevant and enjoyable.

[Catacol Highlander]

Feels like trolling to me. The comments here dont stack up - AoC is definitely a fight to the death and AoD has a massive campaign that is far from an operational scenario. 95% of map useless? Give me a pbem game pal and I'll show you just how significant the map is. The only perhaps "useless" bits might be South America and parts of southern Africa - - - but then again isnt this supposed to be a WW2 simulation based on history? Go read a book.

New units? Just open up the purchase folder and take a look.

I wouldnt give the guy a penny. If he really spent the money without any research at all into the game then he gets all he deserves if you ask me.

If this is trolling then ban, delete and move on.

[Michel5656]

"The best part of these games are the player MODS that eventually come out. Yes the game as is, is truly 95% size wise useless. However once some of the superb player mods come out the map become 90% very relevant and enjoyable."

... this is true; however is it the job of the modders to develop the game ?

... for the rest, this time I'm fed up. Démerdez-vous !

[CSS]

Having the engine gives Modders the tools they need to expand the game in some very interesting ways. I have always really enjoyed the super sized mods that give manure room while still maintaining an operational feel to the game. Hubert DOES put out a GREAT game. For me personally Honch, Calm before the Storm, Brute Force MODS have made the game for me I bought every game and expansion from. SC1. Also I have played said scenarios both solo and PVP via email. If a player does not know about player Mods or has used them, then they can not have seen what a Masterpiece this gaming system is.

[CSS]

Aoc is by itself a masterpiece. Just saying.

[Big Al]

Aoc is by itself a masterpiece. Just saying.

Thanks, I appreciate the comment.

[david12345]

This concerns both AoC and AoD.

AoC: Briefly speaking it's a matter of very weak AI and of balance between German and Russian sides due I think to a lack of skill concerning the story of the Eastern Front. Second, SC is a strategic game and not really interesting with operational scenarios; AoC has only operational scenarios which further don't take into account the "other fronts". The concept of key cities is not accurate I think; against Russia there was no " key city", it was a battle to death. Tell me where are new units, new sprites ? In summary all of this is more or less like the anterior numerous so called Gold or Add_on versions. The same applies more or less to AoD. Concerning AoD, who cares to have a "giant" map when 95% is useless ?

Consequently I"m asking for my 50$ back, in exchange I'll send you back the downloaded files. :mad:

I have bought games before that I turned out not to like - so I lost some money. If you hate the game, delete it and move on. But I think if you give specific problems and solutions, you will find that others here may just back you and you may see your suggestions in the next patch - it's happened for me.

I do agree with one point you made - the operational scenarios never seem to work for me, but hey - they are extra anyway, so what's the harm?

p.s. the statement that 95% of the map is useless is like saying that 95% of the world is useless. WWII did not encompass the WHOLE world, but at least you have the option of using the whole world in the game - I think that's a good thing.

I would also disagree that some cites are not more important than others. If the Germans had taken Moscow, for example, they would have effectively cut Russia in half since all the major rail lines pass through the city. I could make arguments for many other cities as well - losing London, for example, would have crippled the UK.

[Panzer General]

I wouldn't give this guy a penny.

Everyone knew what these games (AoC/AoD) were going to be like. The only possible gripe anyone could have had was with the bundle pricing of the two one AoD came out, and the offer of a $10 off coupon to anyone who had purchased AoC and asked made it perfect.

To the original poster--go away, troll boy.

[Michel5656]

No need to be insolent, you so-called "Panzer General"; everybody with a bit of sense in mind well knows that these add ons are a kind of fraud; and fraud is punished by law in every country I think.

[Xenon 141]

Just out of curiosity: Is there any real reason why you would consider these games a "fraud"? I mean just the fact that you consider these addons bad or little improvement doesn't qualify for that. In legal terms a fraud basically means damage to property by deception. I really can't see how you were deceived here...

[numdydar]

No court would ever consider Aod/AoC frdulent. There were detailed descriptions of the games, AAR's which went into great detail about the games. The court would ask if you looked at or read any of this material prior to purchase. If you did not then this is your own fault and not SCs. If you did and still bought, then you did not really understand what you were buying and again, SC is not a fault.

As someone else posted earlier, I too have spent quite a bit on games that I barely played. My hard drive is quite full of them Glad storage is so cheap lol. If your finances are so tight you cannot afford a $40-$50 loss, you have no business buying AoC/AoD in the first place.

But to accuse SC of fradulent behavior is absurd and shows that you have no real understanding of what fradulent behavior really is. You may feel like you were defrauded, but there is a huge gap between what you feel and the legal defination of fraud. So I would suggest you use better terms to express your feelings versus accusing SC of a very serious crime which they did not commit.

[Happycat]

This concerns both AoC and AoD.

AoC: Briefly speaking it's a matter of very weak AI and of balance between German and Russian sides due I think to a lack of skill concerning the story of the Eastern Front. Second, SC is a strategic game and not really interesting with operational scenarios; AoC has only operational scenarios which further don't take into account the "other fronts". The concept of key cities is not accurate I think; against Russia there was no " key city", it was a battle to death. Tell me where are new units, new sprites ? In summary all of this is more or less like the anterior numerous so called Gold or Add_on versions. The same applies more or less to AoD. Concerning AoD, who cares to have a "giant" map when 95% is useless ?

Consequently I"m asking for my 50$ back, in exchange I'll send you back the downloaded files. :mad:

Michel, I'm puzzled as to why you downloaded this at all. Given your earlier comments about "add-ons' ( I have read all of your previous posts) it is clear you think they are a waste of your money and time, although that puts you into a very distinct minority---most of us love the new subsets of games such as "Breakthrough", "AoC", "AoD" etc.

You have a perfect right to your own opinion of course. But I think it's tacky to ask for a refund in such a public way. It's kind of like going into a department store and screaming at the top of your lungs that you don't like your new shirt and demand a refund. How likely do you think you would be to get one? I think it's more likely someone would call security and eject you from the store

Given how hard it is to find good, never mind great strategy war games these days, I think that Fury and Battlefront deserve a lot of praise for the consistently high quality games made available to us, for reasonable prices. And even more praise for how the games are then supported with patches and/or new features at no cost.

You leave me scratching my head, my friend.

[Ivanov]

Guys, you pay too much attention to the absurd claims, bringing them unintendedly into the spotlight. There's no logic and not even a chint of constructivity in what Michael says. It looks to me like either an attempt of trolling, or that he doesn't fully realize what he's talking about, due to the language barrier. Either way, why allow some mediocrity to lower the well established and high standards of this forum?

[Happycat]

Guys, you pay too much attention to the absurd claims, bringing them unintendedly into the spotlight. There's no logic and not even a chint of constructivity in what Michael says. It looks to me like either an attempt of trolling, or that he doesn't fully realize what he's talking about, due to the language barrier. Either way, why allow some mediocrity to lower the well established and high standards of this forum?

That's like asking a dog to ignore a flea. Sometimes things need to be responded to, and it would in my opinion have been disrespectful to Michel if everyone just ignore his comment. Clearly he has a problem with some aspect of AoC/AoD and I think it's perfectly reasonable and appropriate for others to respond.

Having read over, again, the comments that people made, I don't think anything anyone said was out of line. But you too are welcome to your opinion. If you don't like this particular thread, do like I do when I don't like a tv show---change channels

[Ivanov]

I like the flea metaphor I was only refering to Michael, not to other people who are posting here. His style and tone don't encourage to a constructive and polite thought exchange.

[Happycat]

I like the flea metaphor I was only refering to Michael, not to other people who are posting here. His style and tone don't encourage to a constructive and polite thought exchange.

My wife hates it when I use metaphors and similes, so I am delighted that it was appreciated.

Yes, I agree, it is too bad when someone makes a comment in such a way that it raises everyone else's hackles a bit. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, and to expand on what you already said---it may be a totally unintentional thing, due to either language, age, or some other factor.

Sometimes we all can say something which only moments later, we wish we hadn't said at all.

Long weekend here in Canada as we celebrate our 146th birthday on July 1st. (also my wife's birthday, but she's not that old )

Now back to my AoD game with Abukede where, as you will see in the AAR "sticky", China (me) is having its problems.

[SeaMonkey]

I've noticed that as an Axis player, China is having problems also, but it's still early, we'll see how this first game unfolds.

[Michel5656]

The good thing here is that at least some people do become aware that there is a prob with these add-ons; is the AI better: I don't think so; are there new units; no, some which could be were already in the free mods; in summary, where is the work for which we customers have to pay? - in conclusion, all of this is "easy money" to get from people the conceptors not care about. ( The Franco Prussian war which is free is far more interesting )

As far as the language barrier is concerned it's on your side guys.

[Big Al]

Michel while before years ago I thought similar to how you did.

"Make it right the 1st time!!"

Now I am on the design side of games and not the playing side. I am the designer of AoC/AoD.

Writing games is no easy task especially complex strategy games. You simply can't start with the top of the list of everything everyone wants and expect it to work. The inconsistencies and issues that come up would have so many permutations that it would be very difficult to correct within a reasonable amount of time.

If you introduce 100 different variables going from simple combat values to complicated supply issues that involve complex mathematics all at once you are just asking for trouble. You have to start with basics and work up. Just like building a house with a foundation, then adding in later.

I also know programming to an extend and programming a bug free workable game is not easy.

So when you combine design, programming, modeling, and testing it takes a lot of effort to get it right. You have to start with a base model and slowly adjust it up when the foundations are set. Add in more features as you go a long.

When I became involved with the design team at Fury I assisted them in developing new ideas to improve the game significantly. These ideas took time for me to develop as I played the game and made some realizations. I've been playing wargames for 30 years and all that experience came into play. There are a lot of features I had direct impact on that weren't there before.

That the scenarios with each product are not copies of old scenarios from other games they previously released. There is no grand Russian campaign, no alternate history scenarios, no invasion of malta, no solomons campaign in any game of the past. Only the global game has gotten larger. I think the current model of the global game is pretty amazing. It offers tons of decisions and pieces on a map the size of common global board games like World in Flames or ETO/PTO.

Also you can always modify it yourself. When I got SC2 I didn't like the scale or map size of the World At War campaign so I created Brute Force to my liking.

As for the A.I. it has improved. I notice it because I script the A.I. for all the scenarios I developed and had direct influence on its behavior. Programming A.I. isn't easy in the least. It takes lots of testing and time to get it right running hundreds of simulations from Beta Testers who give lots of hours and hard work to help us. I love scripting A.I. and I have a nack for developing new routines make it better.

When I writing the Brute Force mod I gave the A.I. 16 different global strategies to pursue and they adjusted based on circumstance.

Tell me which other game in history has ever developed an A.I. that does that?

Point being PC wargames have been around since the 1980s and no one has truly come up with a learning competitive A.I. in a complex multi-variable game? Why? It because its damn hard. I was shocked to find I was the 1st person to develop a multiple grand strategy for a WW2 global game. It was due to the excellent scripting and internal A.I. for the SC2 engine.

The fact I could develop it on Hubert's engine shows you how powerful it is. If you don't enjoy the scenarios mod them. If you don't like the pieces, change them. That's what I did.

Already we have a long list of features for SC3. I'm fairly excited to get working on the next system myself.

[xwormwood]

AoC / AoD are perfectly legid expansions.

There are new units. Even the press awards both expansions good grades.

To label AoC / AoD as "fraud "is simple and plain ridiculous.

Everybody has the right to criticize, of course. I myself offered often criticism here.

But when one start to spread lies like "fraud", than he has left criticism, and entered malicious mud-slinging.

If the forum moderators need a reason to close this thread or to ban this user, i'm more than willing to take the blame for it. Do it, i'm all in favor.

When i think back at the wild days, i'm pretty sure that Kuni and JJR were banned for less. At the very least they were always funny and trying to make the game better.