Some strange ammo and a bargain truck

[Cogust]

Hello,

I am about halfway through with a small project of mine, creating a spreadsheet of all infantry platoons and specialist teams so that one can analyse how the various infantry units are equipped and so on.

It could come in handy while playing quick battles as the purchase screen isn't always that helpful in telling you how many men each units have and what equipment they have (it can be nice to know qhich squads carry demo charges and how many of them) so on.

While doing all this I stumbled over some real oddities regarding the Italian HMG teams (both the specialist teams and those in formations).

The Italians have three types of HMG squads:

A regular HMG team with five men manning a Breda M37 with 240 rounds of 8mm ammunition and four ammo bearers. It costs 50 points (regular, fit, normal, +0).

A Blackshirt HMG team with five men manning a Breda M37 with 1240 rounds of 8mm ammunition and three ammo bearers. It costs 46 points (as above).

A Bersaglieri HMG team, four men manning a Breda M37 with 1240 rounds of 8mm ammunition and three ammo bearers. It costs 43 points (as above).

The perceptive reader sees that the regular HMG only has 240 rounds while the other two has 1240 rounds, this is clearly a typo and all three whould have 1240 rounds.

In addition to the normal ammunition, all three HMG teams also have eight 60mm HE rounds which makes me wonder if the Italians fitted their M37s with grenade launchers or if someone has made a Copy+Paste error or sumfink.

The bargain truck in the thread title is located in the American motorized engineer platoon. The platoon has a total of five trucks, all identical and costing 21 points (regular, fit, normal, +0) apart from the fact that one truck contains a bazooka and the others don't. A bazooka is generally worth 9-11 points if in a squad (a dismounted motorized engineer squad for example), but it is apparently worthless when stoved in a truck.

These are two irregularities that popped out right away, there might be a few more along the road.

An other interesting tidbit is that the most expensive squad of all is the rifle toting Italian pioneer squad, it is costing 101 points and it is apparent that the 16 demo charges it carries are worth a lot of purchase points.

[womble]

I think you might be falling afoul of the "bearers give their ammo to the gun team" glitch that sometimes strikes... I know the HMGs in a recent PBEM QB which were organic to the Battalion had over 1000 rounds (over an hour into the fight, with the MGs operating most turns, and none of them have less than 300 rounds left), and their bearers had only what you'd expect for their personal weapons.

WRT the truck, you'll find something similar in jeeps. Some jeeps (at least in BN) in formations have a zook and 12 rounds as well as their bullets, but they and the ones that don't still all cost 32 points.

[Fallout]

Here is a list of all (I think......) of the vehicles (selected in the editor under the Single Vehicles) for the Allies. I'm working on the Axis next. It is curious to note that the Canadian Armoured Infantry branch does not have any formations until Feb. 1944, but still can be selected.

Yes, I have nothing better to do.....but like you would like to see what the options are outside CMFI/CMBN.

[Cogust]

Womble,

The regular HMG has 240 rounds of 8mm ammunition each and every time you purchase it, the ammo bearers have none.

The Blackshirt and Bersaglieri HMGs have 1240 rounds of 8mm ammunition each and every time you purchase it, and the ammo bearers have none.

This have nothing to do with ammo bearers giving away their ammo or hiding it in their trousers, it simply isn't there and I suspect someone mistyped when giving them their ammo allowance.

The 60mm HE shells are a small comfort as the Italians don't have any weapons system to fire them with, I wonder what happens if you mix American 60mm mortars in the same platoon as Italian HMG teams, do they get more ammo? I must test this.

[Cogust]

Back from testing.

The Italian HMG crews DO carry American 60mm shells, if you put them in the same platoon as some American light mortars, then they function as heavily armed ammo bearers. They only have 8 rounds, but they do bring a HMG with them.

Are they secretly preparing for switching sides?

[A Canadian Cat]

Back from testing.

The Italian HMG crews DO carry American 60mm shells, if you put them in the same platoon as some American light mortars, then they function as heavily armed ammo bearers. They only have 8 rounds, but they do bring a HMG with them.

Are they secretly preparing for switching sides?

LOL good one. Are you saying that if enemy HMG crews are near an American mortar the mortar team can use the amo? Or did you some how get both teams to be on the same side?

[womble]

Womble,

The regular HMG has 240 rounds of 8mm ammunition each and every time you purchase it, the ammo bearers have none.

You're missing something because that statement is false, as an absolute. I got more than that, or how can my guns still have more than that after an hour's combat? I don't know what it is, but you're missing something.

Maybe it's defining what version you're using: My experience is in 1.01.

...the ammo bearers have none.

This have nothing to do with ammo bearers giving away their ammo or hiding it in their trousers, it simply isn't there and I suspect someone mistyped when giving them their ammo allowance.

Actually, it does, or it might. You've not given enough info to determine. The ammo bearers should be carrying some rounds, but there is a known bug where in QBs they give their ammo to the team they're supporting before you see them in setup. If you're using QBs to determine your information, this bug will apply. If you're using the scenario editor, less so. But you'll also have different TOs, since the two methods of force generation use different filters/files: you can get stuff in the scenario editor that's not present in the QB TO.

[Cogust]

In the scenario editor I started with the setting Axis vs Allies and bought the American mortars, then i switched to Axis vs Axis and bought some Italian HMG teams into the same platoon as the mortars.

If they aren't in the same formation, then they can't share ammo.

[Cogust]

Womble,

I am using 1.10 here.

I have tested with both the scenario editor and in a Quick Battle, I have bought independent teams and HMGs within a rifle battalion with the same result. The date I have used is July -43 if it matters.

Are you sure that you aren't using the Bersaglieri och Blackshirt variant? The only way they are different in play is the number of men (and the feathers on the Bersaglieri helmets). The Blackshirt and Bersaglieri HMGs have 1240 rounds of 8mm ammo.

The ammo bearers only carry 6.5mm ammo for their rifles, no 8mm ammo for the HMG.

[Cogust]

I looked through some scenarios and found that the Italian HMGs in 'Butera Station' has the exact same problem that I have found elsewhere, 240 rounds of 8mm ammo and eight 60mm HE shells.

[womble]

Womble,

I am using 1.10 here.

I have tested with both the scenario editor and in a Quick Battle, I have bought independent teams and HMGs within a rifle battalion with the same result. The date I have used is July -43 if it matters.

Are you sure that you aren't using the Bersaglieri och Blackshirt variant?

Absolutely. The ones in question are the MG platoon in a standard infantry Battalion. If there's an error, it's been introduced in GL/1.10

[ASL Veteran]

I looked through some scenarios and found that the Italian HMGs in 'Butera Station' has the exact same problem that I have found elsewhere, 240 rounds of 8mm ammo and eight 60mm HE shells.

Excellent catch. Consider your findings to be confirmed and reported.

[Sublime]

so hey if we can introduce say US/German equipment on the same side in battle, then we could use 'captured' tanks for scenarios...

[JonS]

so hey if we can introduce say US/German equipment on the same side in battle, then we could use 'captured' tanks for scenarios...

Indeed, and that functionality has been around since CMSF. You just need to fiddle about with the "X vs Y" (Red vs Blue, Red vs Red, Blue vs Blue) setting while you're purchasing.

[hoolaman]

so hey if we can introduce say US/German equipment on the same side in battle, then we could use 'captured' tanks for scenarios...

Yes simulationally that will work, you get a Sherman + crew fighting for the Germans. But that US tank will always be a US tank, including crew. Bunch of traitors.

[Cogust]

Yes, they will speak English but fight for the Germans.

I'm currently planning a tournament where all players 'draft' their units (mostly infantry platoons and individual tanks) in a draft before the tournament starts and they can pick units with all nationalities. After the draft the units are used to make a quasi Quick Battle with mixed forces on both sides, it's extremely gamey but I think it can be fun.

[Baneman]

...

I'm currently planning a tournament where all players 'draft' their units (mostly infantry platoons and individual tanks) in a draft before the tournament starts and they can pick units with all nationalities. After the draft the units are used to make a quasi Quick Battle with mixed forces on both sides, it's extremely gamey but I think it can be fun.

That sounds like it could be a good laugh.

I generally play Axis, but I'd bite your arm off for a couple of Brit 50mm mortars - laser death machines !

[womble]

That sounds like it could be a good laugh.

I generally play Axis, but I'd bite your arm off for a couple of Brit 50mm mortars - laser death machines !

If you want to kill things, the Brixia's better. 4x the HE, IIRC, and just as handy to use. No smoke though, which means the 2" wins for utility.

[Michael Emrys]

If you want to kill things, the Brixia's better. 4x the HE, IIRC, and just as handy to use. No smoke though, which means the 2" wins for utility.

Obviously what is needed is a 2" and a Brixia in each platoon.

Michael

[womble]

Obviously what is needed is a 2" and a Brixia in each platoon.

Michael

Indeed. Along with a Shreck (best range for MANPAT), Fausts (best behind armour effect for MANPAT), PIAT (for firing MANPAT from indoors) a 60mm (for the range), some Demo charges, plenty of SMGs and a 150mm infantry gun

[Michael Emrys]

...and a 150mm infantry gun

Preferably mounted in an armored vehicle. And a partridge in a pear tree.

Michael

[Sublime]

I prefer the 60mm most of all for the light mortars. I have yet to toy with the German para 81mm, though my opponents teams seem to zip around pretty quickly.

[Rickusty]

Hello,

I am about halfway through with a small project of mine, creating a spreadsheet of all infantry platoons and specialist teams so that one can analyse how the various infantry units are equipped and so on.

It could come in handy while playing quick battles as the purchase screen isn't always that helpful in telling you how many men each units have and what equipment they have (it can be nice to know qhich squads carry demo charges and how many of them) so on.

While doing all this I stumbled over some real oddities regarding the Italian HMG teams (both the specialist teams and those in formations).

The Italians have three types of HMG squads:

A regular HMG team with five men manning a Breda M37 with 240 rounds of 8mm ammunition and four ammo bearers. It costs 50 points (regular, fit, normal, +0).

A Blackshirt HMG team with five men manning a Breda M37 with 1240 rounds of 8mm ammunition and three ammo bearers. It costs 46 points (as above).

A Bersaglieri HMG team, four men manning a Breda M37 with 1240 rounds of 8mm ammunition and three ammo bearers. It costs 43 points (as above).

The perceptive reader sees that the regular HMG only has 240 rounds while the other two has 1240 rounds, this is clearly a typo and all three whould have 1240 rounds.

In addition to the normal ammunition, all three HMG teams also have eight 60mm HE rounds which makes me wonder if the Italians fitted their M37s with grenade launchers or if someone has made a Copy+Paste error or sumfink.

The bargain truck in the thread title is located in the American motorized engineer platoon. The platoon has a total of five trucks, all identical and costing 21 points (regular, fit, normal, +0) apart from the fact that one truck contains a bazooka and the others don't. A bazooka is generally worth 9-11 points if in a squad (a dismounted motorized engineer squad for example), but it is apparently worthless when stoved in a truck.

These are two irregularities that popped out right away, there might be a few more along the road.

An other interesting tidbit is that the most expensive squad of all is the rifle toting Italian pioneer squad, it is costing 101 points and it is apparent that the 16 demo charges it carries are worth a lot of purchase points.

Good points!

And indeed, it looks like the standard infantry HMG have just 240 x 8mm rounds (instead of their full ammo load) and some cool american 60mm HE rounds (which could potentially be used as a barter should the occasion arise...)

:cool:

Good catch Cogust!

[Cogust]

I want to remind the powers that be that the Blackshirt and Bersaglieri HMGs have 60mm ammo as well, they have more 8mm ammo than the regular HMG squad though.

[Rickusty]

Hello everyone,

since in this thread we are pointing out some errors seen in the italian army in the game, I would like to add another bug that I found out today.

In practice, all the italian AS-42 scout cars can fire their weapons only when the car is positioned towards the target/enemy.

In most of the pictures seen about this vehicle, the guns are pointed usually ahead, like shown here.

The pivot mount on these scout cars permitted the crew to fire their main gun (the 20mm Breda, 47mm AT gun, or 20mm Solothurn) in any direction wanted. Such a characteristic was of course needed and looked after in the operations in Africa, permitting the crew to fire around all the 360° arc even against air threats.

In the game, when a "fire at target" order is issues to one of the AS-42, the vehicle just turns around towards it, and only when the car is facing the target , the gun fires.

It looks like the gun/cannon/mmg can't rotate indipendently.

Also, strange enough, the "side-weapons" 8mm Breda 37 MMG mounted in front or in the back of the vehicle have a very little arc of fire for them.

I attach a picture of an AS42 with its 47mm gun faced toward the rear of the vehicle.

Or here, as seen on a model kit.