Big Tournament

[Amadeus]

Hi guys,

I am absolutely overwhelmed about that great stuff Hubert create with AoD. I guess it would be time to organize a Big Tournament in some weeks. Yes, we have to practice a bit more before starting but I wanna collect some players to make this issue big enough.

Who wants to sign in. Come on give it a go. Rules will coming up later this summer.

Kindly Regards from Germany

Amadeus (heiko.haupt at versanet.de)

[Calculon]

Im in.

No better than spending time with WW2. And yes, let us spend some time with practicing before a tournament. The amount of possibilities this game gives is blowing my mind.

[Clausewitz]

In my opinion your prior tournaments have been very successful and I anxiously look forward to participating in AoD tournament.

[SeaMonkey]

Interesting, but Summers are way too busy down here, maybe in the Winter.

[Amadeus]

Yes SeaMonkey, summer is too busy but we need some months for the whole tourny. I am pretty sure. So fall could be the right time. Anyway, we only started if enough players has signed in. I will collect the Names here in the meantime. www.panzerliga.de will support German players on their homepage. Believe me, it will be a big and great tournament.

Players who may sign in: Calculon, Clausewitz

[MonsterClaude]

Yes, let's go for it. After the first patch though as I suspect some issue with multiplayer games given the units scarcity and rather small force pool for such a big map. Just an impression, I'm playing a hotseat and have not reached 42 yet.

Obvious stuff: starting research allotments are questionable. France is weaker than Italy !?! Japan at start is stronger than any country and so on. I know a lot of compromise in SC Scenario have to do with playability and AI effectiveness but not justified in multiplayer. Maybe a multiplayer version of World at War should be included in the next patch.

[Amadeus]

Hey MonsterClaude, is this a yes for the tourny?

[MonsterClaude]

I wish it is Yes as long as the tournament conditions suit my schedule. I remember last time I couldn't be sure I would be up for so many turns a week in a 6-8 months span. I can do at best 2 turns a day and probably will have few days interval here and there without any possibility to play. Set your rules then I see if I can join in. If it asks for more than say 10-12 turns a week, forget it, I'll be just a spectator Sigh!

Zeit ist Geld aber Ich habe nicht beides!

[Amadeus]

1 turn a day should be minimum. If we ask for more many players could not sign in. We all have a life to live in between.

Don't worry! I already organized 3 larger tournaments. This problem was a minor issue. For now I count you as a clear maybe. I will ask all players again when the time is coming.

Players who may sign in: Calculon, Clausewitz, MonsterClaude

[Hubert Cater]

Yes, let's go for it. After the first patch though as I suspect some issue with multiplayer games given the units scarcity and rather small force pool for such a big map. Just an impression, I'm playing a hotseat and have not reached 42 yet.

Obvious stuff: starting research allotments are questionable. France is weaker than Italy !?! Japan at start is stronger than any country and so on. I know a lot of compromise in SC Scenario have to do with playability and AI effectiveness but not justified in multiplayer. Maybe a multiplayer version of World at War should be included in the next patch.

Hi MonsterClaude,

The game should play very well in either mode, i.e. multiplayer or AI and I can definitely say the design was not created to favour AI games.

We will of course make any adjustments needed after this much wider release than what we were able to cover in Beta testing but we always try our best to release games that are as balanced as possible for any game playing style .

I can add that part of the design did favour maneuverability over stuffing the map with plenty of units, i.e. since we could because the map is bigger, and we were careful to ensure that the OOBs matched the incomes as well as that growth in income was relative to military growth.

For example, what you'll find is that as the German Army expands and as more nations come on board such as the USSR and the USA German income should match the strains and requirements of battle.

For the differences between initial OOBs between a country like German and let's say Japan we accepted the abstraction that the Pacific Theater is more of a Division/Corps level engagment as Japan begins the war with much more territory to cover than does Germany, while Germany could be argued to be more of a Corps/Army level arrangement.

This is one way to resolve the two differing Theaters on a single map while other solutions involve splitting the map into two different scales as Al did for his Brute Force series, or by artificially increasing the size of Europe to compensate... which I've seen in a few other games in order to work around the issue.

I hope this helps,

Hubert

[mcaryf1]

Hi Hubert

Surely there are possible solutions to the Pacific and Chinese Theatres. Now that you have additional Division and Corps (Cavalry) unit types you could convert the Japanese to the real size of forces they deployed in China by switching most Japanese Armies to Corps and possibly using the Cavalry unit with poorer ctvs to represent the 1 - 2m Chinese warlord mercenaries who fought alongside the Japanese forces. The real problem is that you have given Chinese units similar ctvs to any other countriy. In reality virtually no Chinese unit, other than Chiang's 10 elite Divisions, had any artillery of its own thus all their offensive and defensive values should be scaled right back to vitually militia type levels. You could either do this by changing the ctvs and still leaving the Chinese with notional armies or you could swap the Chinese Armies to lesser units (Divisions at best). If you did either of those things then the Japanese would still be quite capable of dealing with the Chinese with Corps and Divisions instead of Armies and Corps.

However, at the end of the day this is intended to be a game and has been designed to give reasonable challenges to players on both sides. The fact that the capabilities for both the Chinese and Japanese are overstated probably cancels each other out and only starts to matter when their units get heavily involved with those of the other major powers.

Regards

Mike

[Hubert Cater]

Hi Mike,

There are always many solutions but in this case the map and OOBs were simply built up from previous Global maps released under SC and without having to rebuild it from the ground up, which would have taken much longer, we simply went with what worked for now as this was all we decided we needed for this particular expansion.

If and when we redo a Global theater under SC3, we will definitely have more time and options on the table.

Hubert

[MonsterClaude]

Yes Amadeus, I’m in! If bribery is allowed let me know, got a good proposal for you!

Don’t want to impose a new topic in your tournament thread but I take few (if not many) lines to explain my earlier statement to Mr.Cater and all readers.

There is no doubt AoD is a terrific game and WaW a darn good scenario. Even in a Hotseat, I’m really having a thrill, imagine with a real opponent! The new Supply Rule system worth the purchase alone for any true or even mild SC followers. It does make a difference from Gold. So go ahead! Buy it and get in the tournament, we need cannon fodders here! ( just kidding! I lost 2/3 of my SC games).

How about the issues I talked above? Every wargamers come to SC with expectations of their own. Some are tired of long tedious games, some are tired of bugs or non-existant community or loopholes and so on. SC offers everything wargamers want, no headache, pure fun and I can confidently say that Global AOD is the best grand strategy wargame out there ( World in flames, HoI, etc do not appeal much to me). As a matter of taste, some of us Mcarfy1 for sure and me like the simulation part of wargames. What could have been done with blue Case for instance? Maybe crossing the Don at Voronezh and destroying Russian rear supply lines would be better than going for Stalingrad? Ya but simulation means deeper realism and historicity…

When one has years of WW2 study background and wargaming altogether (close to 30 in my case) he spots right away what is missing from or added to the historical frame. It doesn’t mean these liberties with a scenario makes the game uninteresting. Like Amadeus said once priority should be gaming not some misconceptions about faithful reconstitution of WW2 because with no player the most realistic game is nothing but dust on the shelf, I know from the boardgames era where it comes and where it goes.

On the other hand, who wants to play WW2 games with laser beams, hyperspace moves,etc? There has to be a balance and it applies also to OBB, deployments, units stats, landscape.

For instance, I know there is no such physical massive forest along the french-Belgium borders which allows french units to entrench up to 3 . But I know the Corf did build many concrete positions along the frontier around Maubeuge, Lille, Verdun and allied troops used the Phoney war to improve this line. In a way it is realistic. On the plus side, the gaming proved that without forest, French forces could be overunned very early on. So for game balance purpose, these forest tiles are just fine. This is the right compromise between playability and historicity.

Now let’s look at Russia a second! Striking view! It’s almost empty. The largest 1939 army of the time cannot even form a continuous front , not half of it! So kind of shocking for the historian behind the wargamer. Should we give more units to Russia in 1939? Then Barbarossa will prove to be almost impossible on the SC ground.

As you play, one thing becomes clearer: the AOD designers, unless they change all country units stats through a laborious testing process, cannot simply adopt historical OBB. The map, game mechanism ( combat, replenishment, supply, mpp ,etc) would significantly distort results so in the end one must start from scratch and redo the whole scenario. As it is now, AOD works very well., no question about it, but works mainly as a game not as a simulation. My idea was to give players an AOD version closer to history and never imply the actual scenario was disapointing. I understand that such iniative should be modders concern. That’s the beauty of this game as well, no other one provides an Editor so exhaustiv and friendly user .

While one can, as modder, bring any scenario pretty much to some level of historical simulation, he cannot hope for a true one by changing units stats or industry modifiers or country alignment, etc. Mcarfy1 brave efforts and clever ideas ( I joyfully stole from in my mods) hit the same wall I hit before him: the basic SC game engine.

One step further would be to deal with fundamentals more or less ignored by the engine or abstracted to a point we end up with a melted economic figure like mpp .

Yes, I said years ago that talking of realism with SC leads to more and more micromanagement and would bug the game down. It’s true of all games. There is a limit both in units and factors evaluation a player can cope with. For instance, spliting mpp into various economic outputs may not be so wise.

We also had Oil considerations before. We had Manpower pool too, specific armament industry - ex.: USSR could not build CV unless she builds dry docks for that, 4 years of work! - and country amphibious pool capacity , shipping pool capacity, rail pool capacity, port capacity, engineering capacity- port, road or rail bulding- repair delay for fleet, etc.

See guys! We are far from a real strategic ww2 model. Ludi brought up once how unlikely it would have been for UK to keep fighting after the british islands got conquered. But, how could we implement all that in SC without taking away the fun part?

I think the AI limitations certainly have its weight in scenario design ( it won’t handle 500 units in a timely manner nor would it keep focus for long range or long term amphibious and offensive plan hence the need for smaller force pool and smaller fighting area). I tested last year a bunch of AI scripts for Nupremal World mod, one comparable to AOD. While it’s going fine until 41, the AI gets overwhelmed at some point with too many units and greater distance specialy for naval and amphibious moves. Getting a plan done over 5-6 sea tiles isn’t a problem, precisely why AOD pacific islands are oversized and pretty close. In Nupremal Mod, I’m talking here of the real distance involving 30-40 tiles or more and naval reorganization counting 150 naval units on average for the Allied side. Simply too much!

In conclusion, AOD just like the original Global WAW has to be this way for playability and that is number ONE reason why we play those games and any wargamers should buy it. The good news: people who prefer realism can plead for a player version ( much tougher to balance I concede) with more units and more accurate OBB, units CTV, etc without AI . Presumably, Fury Team should be working on SC3 so I leave it to modders!

[Amadeus]

You are pretty welcome but without bribery sorry. Long reply you made. I don't know how long you are a strategist nor how long you are part of SC. We already made some tournaments and mostly they are pure fun. New tactics new startegic moves. I play most of the time in Multiplayer but sometimes against the AI too. So maybe we meet on the battlefield.

[Hubert Cater]

Great post MonsterClaude and much appreciated

[Amadeus]

Isnogud from Panzerliga just signed in.

Players who may sign in: Calculon, Clausewitz, Isnogud, MonsterClaude

[Amadeus]

Peter Zima and OCB are in.

Players who may sign in: Amadeus, Calculon, Clausewitz, Isnogud, MonsterClaude, Peter Zima, OCB

[Amadeus]

tman is the next one on our Tournament List.

Players who may sign in: Amadeus, Calculon, Clausewitz, Isnogud, MonsterClaude, Peter Zima, OCB, tman

[Amadeus]

Tomi and Fritz signed in today. Great.

10 Players who may sign in: Amadeus, Calculon, Clausewitz, Fritz, Isnogud, MonsterClaude, Peter Zima, OCB, Tomi, tman

[MonsterClaude]

Hi Amadeus!

Your Forum name reminds me that Falco song in the 80's, can't help it. Rock me Amadeus! You probably heard that one before....

Just wondering? Are all these guys from Panzerliga? I know Clausewitz, Iznogood and Calculon but not sure about the other ones. Anyway the more the merrier!

But where are all the Battlefront forum fellows?

About AOD, got to say the Axis player can't afford any misgiving. The Allies really become kind of a steamroler in 1943.

[Amadeus]

Yes I know Rock me Amadeus by Falco. Great song. My nickname comes from the best austrian musican who lived from 1756-1791. Anyway, there are not so much players from Panzerliga directly. Fritz, Peter Zima, Tomi and tman already played the last tourny I organized. Kind of fellows in playing.

About AoD, last time we made a rule "changing side" that every player must play Allies after playing Axis in the previous match an vice versa. Maybe we could activate this rule again.

[Amadeus]

Last day of June 2013: About 2 months before starting the Tournament. At the moment we have 9 players who may play. We need 3 more players to fill in a 12 players draw. Come on give it a go.

[Amadeus]

Number 10 is Don. Great to have you in.

[Amadeus]

10 players at the moment. I guess there is still some space. Maybe there are players who had wait for the Demo. Watch out:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=313&Itemid=542

This demo includes 2 campaigns:

- 1939 World At War from September to May 7, 1940

- 1945 Invasion America from from June to September 1945

[MonsterClaude]

Amadeus,

Have you tried recruitment on other german forums? There is some interest for SC at Strategycom with Hsv, maybe he would join with another fellow from there. Ratnik seems pretty interested too.

There is also Strategie where someone may open a thread for SC or have it inscribed on the game forum listing. Although I manage to read German, Ich bin nicht sehr gut für deutsch redacktion! So it's up to you!

Too many sitting experts in the stadium, not many players on the field!