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I do find it odd that China in most WWII games like this represent China as a single unified country, along with a unified command. This is very far from the reality and this reality did impact operations with all combatents in the theater.

I realize this is the easiest path for designers since splitting China up accurately represents aditions units, AI behavior, etc. However, it would be nice if at some point this was done better to reflect the actual situation in China. Otherwsie the game will give the impression that China was a lot stronger than it ever could in the the real war.

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There is history, hindsight, and playability. If the allied strategic bombers had only bombed German power plants they would have destroyed their production. No power, no factories. So we could include China with all its provinces and warlords and influence to follow history, but hindsight would have us take the most efficient path, and of course the playability would go down the tubes.

Just like playing a division level game of Global WW2 where each hex is a division, each plane counter 30-100 planes. That's a hell of a lot of pieces to move every turn.

So yea some things are abstracted more than others for better fun.

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The issue is in Chna should not be able advance technology at all. When the US became involved in the war, they wanted to base aircraft in China and start building them up as the thinking was that it would easier than having to cross the Pacific to get to Japan. However the coruption in China was so bad, the US decided against this plan. With the still ongoing civil war, ineffective production capacities, there is no way the Chinese should be able to do what they are doing in the AAR, regardless of play balance or not.

The game screws up the historical balance in China. The game uses the historical forces, but gives China abilities that they should not have. The reason Japan has those forces present was because they knew how weak the Chinese were and they did not worry about them vastly improving their warfare capilities which appears to be happening in the AAR. In RL, the Chinese were never able to win a battle againist Japan until late in the war for this very reason.

So I hope this gets addressed before the game is released, otherwise, I will no be buying it. Which is a shame since I was really looking forwad to it up until I saw what the Chinese could do in the AAR. Here is some historical facts to consider

'Theoretically, Chiang's army was the largest in the world. In reality, it consisted mostly of ill-equipped, inadequately trained, poorly organized, and ineptly led units. Many soldiers suffered from malnutrition and clothing shortages. Although an administrative system that was primitive at best prevented western observers from making any useful estimates of the precise size and capabilities of the somewhat amorphous mass of troops, clearly it had been unable to halt an enemy advance or fight a modern war since the very beginning of the struggle. Mao's forces, if better motivated, were even less well equipped and, by 1945, were focusing most of their efforts at establishing guerrilla and clandestine political organizations behind the Japanese lines, rather than opposing them directly.'

So for the Chinese to be able to do what they are doing in the AAR is no where even close to the historical record. Mater of fact, the FIRST successful Chinese offensive was in May '45. Yet here we are in '42 and challenging Japan and retaking cities? I want historical plausability in a WWII game not science fiction or alternate reality.

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I want historical plausability in a WWII game not science fiction or alternate reality.

Don't take this AAR as reference for the gameplay balance in AoD only. It's just an example.

This AAR is special because the Japan player was very passive in China and thats the reason for this "unrealistic" result.

But is it really unrealistic?

If Japan had really done no war in China, if Kuomintang had no enemy besides the Communists (they were very weak in this time), if they had 2 years time to organize their country, to build troops, to buy wapons from the USA - is it really unthinkable that China could push Japan to the coastline?

I can tell you that there are enough possibilities for the Japan player in AoD.

You can crush China with terrible losses.

You can push China back to defendable positions with moderate losses.

You can ignore China and get the bill after short time.;)

Second thing: it's impossible to implement the Chinese Civil War because this would require a third player party. Who should control the Communist China?

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Another thing to take into consideration is making the game overall balanced without having complicated rules with one country against the other. One of the biggest complaints regarding Global is the ease with how China is conquered. With current rules it actually unfairly represents the supply the Japan actually has in China. Japan did not have the supply abilities available to push much beyond the inner ring of mountains in China.

From an abstract point of view by giving the Chinese upgraded capabilities this balances the unrealistic supply that Japan actually had in the war. Which is one of the real reasons for Pearl Harbor was to gain the supplies needed to finish the job. You can have superior equipment (Japan vs China) or tactics (Germany vs Russia) but if you do not have the trucks, the infrastructure, or actual supplies to supply your troops and equipment then it does not matter how superior you are in one form or another. Proven over and over in history.

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I can tell you China in this game is a very tough nut to crack. The Japanese player needs to effectively manage China... instead of going for a complete conquest. What I mean by managing is to take as much territory as you can and then do the Chinese enough damage to keep them from hammering you. In my opinion if you try for a knockout blow you will need so much force that you risk seriously weakening your forces for operations elsewhere. The mountains and supply in China for this game tend to really be a major factor.

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Don't take this AAR as reference for the gameplay balance in AoD only. It's just an example.

This AAR is special because the Japan player was very passive in China and thats the reason for this "unrealistic" result.

Once Japan seized all the coast line, they pretty much stopped offensive operations. So historically Japan was pretty much passive in China. I.E they had taken most of the easy to get places and those that were the most valuable to them. The only reason Japan launched it's '43 offensive was to capture the bases the US was flying from (which they won).

So if a Japanese player wants to be passive in China, there should be little to nothing China can do about it. Especially after July, 1940 when the US embargo took place as Japan needed to horde its remaining materials for the Pacific conflict. So from the start of the game up until July, '40, Japan should be able to attack in China at will and win consistantly. Once the embaro hits, China operations should pretty much cease for both sides, China for the reasons already pointed out and Japan for supply issues.

To model this in the game, I would suggest the following

* Fix China's tech levels for the entire game or make tech so expensive for them that it will take years for them to advance at all. Plus limit them to INF only techs.

* China should only be allowed 1 HQ until '45 when the US was able to get better supply lines to China. Then they can have as many HQs as they want. Maybe even give them another HQ for free at the start of '45 too.

* Supply costs for Japan should be increased in China once the embargo hits. 50% or even 100% more from that date going forward. This should last for the entire game unless the British/US are knocked out of the game.

* As Japan only had four Area Armies (which I think are the closest to what HQs represent in the game) in China, Japan should pay a huge cost (or even prohibit) to send any additional HQs to China

Of course as I do not have access to any code :), I have no idea if this is doable, and if it would be if it is easy or not. But just some thoughts to try and make China a more realistic theater than what the game currently seems to potray.

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This is my 2 cents from 30 years of WW2 wargaming.....

China shouldn't be an easy conquest even though history shows that Japan could have pushed the line when ever and where ever they wanted.

If Japan decides to kill China it should cost a good amount of resources and China should fall between start of 1942 and to summer 1943. Depending on how many resources are devoted.

Should china be able to kick Japan's but in 1944/45? Only if the Japs pull out stuff.

You can adjust these by #s. Balance tech with higher cost, add more defensive terrain, weaken Chinese attack. Many ways to do this.

But China should not be a cake wake and killed in 1941.

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I agree.

If Japan wants China then they need to allocate the additioanl resources necessary to do so at the cost of the Navy. At the same time though, China should NOT be able to force Japan to add any additional resources either. If Japan gets to a point where they feel they have gotten as far as they want, then there should be very little China can do until '45 to change anything. China should not be able to overrun Japan the way the game seems to be currently working.

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Hi Numdydar,

I would take the first AAR with a grain of salt as even Happycat admits he didn't play it as well as he could have.

There have also been a few changes to the campaign since that AAR started and I think the second AAR that Abukede and Happycat have just started will likely paint a bit of a different picture ;)

Hubert

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