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I think the East Front is going to be pretty boring too. Thousands of Soviet artillery and rocket rounds pounding entrenched Germans in pillboxes. Wave upon wave of Soviet troops yelling 'Urrah' as they charge the entrenched German lines in the snow. I can't think of a more boring theater of operations than the Eastern Front.

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I think the East Front is going to be pretty boring too. Thousands of Soviet artillery and rocket rounds pounding entrenched Germans in pillboxes. Wave upon wave of Soviet troops yelling 'Urrah' as they charge the entrenched German lines in the snow. I can't think of a more boring theater of operations than the Eastern Front.

You are kidding right? That sort of thing was very much the minority of the Eastern Front actions. There weren't enough Germans to go round for that, and the Soviets got rather sophisticated by about 1943, and had at least equal if not better equipment.

The East offers no less of the full range of actions than the West or Italy. And the Germans were not completely unknown to do futile frontal assaults as well on occasion (although not in human waves...)

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You are kidding right? That sort of thing was very much the minority of the Eastern Front actions.

What are you talking about? At the beginning of every major Soviet offensive all the way to the end was send a battalion sized recon in force to hit the German fortified line and determine the exact location of the strongpoints. After that, maybe the next day or two, several regiments of artillery would be fired in preparation to the main attack. The Stalin's Organs were always the last thing to be fired - such that the Germans actually knew that when the Stalin's Organs finished the Soviet infantry were on their way. After that - yeah - Urrah! I'm not sure you've actually read any Eastern Front combat if you think that was a rare combat situation.

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The East Front was noted for maneuverability and armor breakthroughs. That's been the Achilles heel of WW2 CM2 maps and scenarios so far. The WW2 CM2 maps and scenarios are nearly all on smallish maps that require frontal assaults with little opportunity for vehicular maneuver around the flanks as one do on the huge CM1 maps.

Maybe that's fine for the infantry-centric. But, some us find that quite boring... Hence the renewed interest in CMSF and CMA.

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There are at least a dozen CMBN maps floating around of 4km² or larger. I have a list somewhere. There were a lot more of them in the CW module than in the base game since Phil improved the memory management. I expect there will be more yet in the MG module.

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You are kidding right?

Yes, I think he is. But the point he is making is quite valid, and that is that if you haven't really studied a campaign and gotten a reasonably complete picture of what happened, you are liable to have formed impressions that are partial and non-representative. As for Pacific amphibious operations, Guadalcanal was different from New Georgia was different from Tarawa was different from Kwajalein was different from Ulithi was different from Peleliu was different from Saipan was different from Leyte was different from Iwo Jima was different from Okinawa. And they all would have been different from a landing on Kyushu.

Now, I am not trying to convince you that you would love a Pacific CM. Maybe you would and maybe you wouldn't. That would be between the lords of battle and your own personal eccentricities. But I think you should try to ground your likes and dislikes on something real rather then shadowy, half-formed prejudices.

Michael

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I hope for you CM: Pacific hopefuls your dreams are fulfilled. I think the issue is what were the ranges that the banzi charges occured? From what I've read I believe the Japanese came out of the woodwork at about 100 yards more or less and charged straight into machine gun nest. Just doesn't sound to fun. Plus hardly any tank support which the Russians had plus the other deference is the Japanese never did a preparatory artillery bombardment on the scale of the Soviets before charging to their deaths.

On another note I get tired of the Bocage and limited line of sight offered in CMBN I can't even imagine how ridiculous it would be in the jungle.

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I think people need to get their heads around the fact that not all of the Pacific ground war combat was fought in jungle, and actually very little of it involved banzai charges. That said, I'd agree that the most interesting bits were about air and naval and especially aero-naval combat.

Michael

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iwo-jima make a great stand alone campaign game on the cm engine. obviously it would have its issues

Considering that most Marines who fought on Iwo stated that they never saw the Japanese while fighting them*, it would probably be really boring. It would be a relentless cycle of getting within range of pillbox after pillbox and knocking it out with explosives or flamethrowers (or tank fire). No thanks.

*Source: Flags of Our Fathers

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Compared to the open spaces of North Africa .......

I do think that North Africa is a great arena for battles covering all types of terrain and a great range of tanks. I can understand why perhaps US interest starts later in that theatre and it makes for some grim reading but at least it allows for open flanks and plenty of positional movement.

Also the sparsity of trees helps with the LOS problem and presumably less objects means computers would be less stressed with very large maps.

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I do think that North Africa is a great arena for battles covering all types of terrain and a great range of tanks. I can understand why perhaps US interest starts later in that theatre and it makes for some grim reading but at least it allows for open flanks and plenty of positional movement.

I second that. I think NA is my favorite theater, mainly because it is not so cluttered. There were so many phases to the combat there, from the early dicing across the wire to the end in Tunisia. I fear though that the only way to truly capture the flavor of the sweeping movements is at the operational level with battalion-sized units. At CM scale, you are in engagements after all the sweeping movement has been done.

Michael

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Now, I am not trying to convince you that you would love a Pacific CM. Maybe you would and maybe you wouldn't. That would be between the lords of battle and your own personal eccentricities. But I think you should try to ground your likes and dislikes on something real rather then shadowy, half-formed prejudices.

Michael

+1 on that. The only objection so far I'd have to agree with is the lack of armor for Japan, though if the fighting in China were included I think folks would see a surprising amount of variation. It seems everyone has discounted even the view of trying to game those engagements.

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Caen Area - Juvigny to Fontenay

Caen Area Map Project

Large Hills QB-252

Large Open QB-125

Large Open QB-122

Large Forest QB-148

CW Colossal Crack

Maltot full map

KG Himmelfahrt

Fire Brigade

TWC Bloody 110th at Marnach

2x2 Normandy (Pete Wenman QB map in Repository)

CW Wittmann's Demise

CW Schmiedestahl

CW Be Evil Unto Him

Bruton

Discussion here : http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=107844

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Also, a list of 2km²+ maps that are adequate for Medium or Large size QBs. This list is not comprehensive.

CW NorMons -- 1728 x 1536 2.65 km²

CW Montys Butchers -- 1792 x 1568 2.8 km²

CW Flowers of the Forest -- 1312 x 2000 2.6 km²

CW Breaking the Panzers -- 1184 x 1824 2.16 km²

Bridgehead to Soloki -- 1664 x 1552 2.6 km²

CW Through the Loop -- 1520 x 2000 3 km²

CW Schnell Truppen Angriffe -- 1600 x1600 2.56 km²

CW Ubique -- 1600 x 1600 2.56 km²

Huzzar! -- don't have dimensions written down.

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Well, maps that don't have units on them (or AI) are not scenarios. The point is that once you add a regiment of units, most CM2 scenarios of that size would probably be unplayable (unless you had state of art machine maybe).

I am loving KG Himmelfahrt, although that would not be a "huge" scenario by CM1 standards. Had some loading problems with Fire Brigade - which otherwise looked terrific.

So, you agree that there are very, very few large, let alone huge, CM2 scenarios compared to CM1 which was my point.

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The largest CMBN map that I know of is this one ;)

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=109593

I've edited my above post to include it.

My guess is that playing a game on that map could end up with OOM problems on the Windows version of the game. I'm tempted to try a Huge QB on it to test, but I would hate to have to abandon a game.

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I basically defended the Pacific to begin with because I think it lacks favor due to lack of knowledge of the sheer variety of combat there. I have a great interest in it, but by far my favorite is the Ost and Europe. Still, I think people even dismiss a Vietnam game as all jungle when it simply is not so. Just as North Africa would have maps in Tunisia that arent pool table flat desert, etc. Or CMBN has bocage, but also wide open areas deeper in Normandy and in the CW sector.

The Pacific islands even weren't all simply jungles and as pointed out had a lot of different types of terrain. Again the Phillipines too, with the fighting in Manilla. Okinawa was a gigantic campaign on its own - Marine divisions and Army divisions fighting IIRC around 300k Japanese. I can assure you - Okinawa is nowhere near all jungle.

You also have the CBI - Singapore - and of course China with the Soviets. I've read BFC posts going back to about 2001 saying they will not do the Pacific and I truly doubt they ever will. I just want to spark conversation and dispel some myths while I'm at it. Strategic trends or stereotypes do not define a tactical level game - at all. Nor do even operational. This is why in CM the Germans can win regularly in the hands of a good player - there isn't much of a reflection of the true state of the whole war an artificial 'match' is simply played out.

And Childress - I wasn't trying to convince you about liking the Pacific. To each there own, no one theater is better than the other, though the Home Front is a little dull to read about ;)

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I basically defended the Pacific to begin with because I think it lacks favor due to lack of knowledge of the sheer variety of combat there. I have a great interest in it, but by far my favorite is the Ost and Europe. Still, I think people even dismiss a Vietnam game as all jungle when it simply is not so. Just as North Africa would have maps in Tunisia that arent pool table flat desert, etc. Or CMBN has bocage, but also wide open areas deeper in Normandy and in the CW sector.

The Pacific islands even weren't all simply jungles and as pointed out had a lot of different types of terrain. Again the Phillipines too, with the fighting in Manilla. Okinawa was a gigantic campaign on its own - Marine divisions and Army divisions fighting IIRC around 300k Japanese. I can assure you - Okinawa is nowhere near all jungle.

You also have the CBI - Singapore - and of course China with the Soviets. I've read BFC posts going back to about 2001 saying they will not do the Pacific and I truly doubt they ever will. I just want to spark conversation and dispel some myths while I'm at it. Strategic trends or stereotypes do not define a tactical level game - at all. Nor do even operational. This is why in CM the Germans can win regularly in the hands of a good player - there isn't much of a reflection of the true state of the whole war an artificial 'match' is simply played out.

And Childress - I wasn't trying to convince you about liking the Pacific. To each there own, no one theater is better than the other, though the Home Front is a little dull to read about ;)

^^^ This. It's all good!

(Hi Sublime, hope school is going good.):)

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