CM: Korea?

[dieseltaylor]

I don't think there was gonna be any problem.There is a game about this conflicts(probably the only one),a flight sim called Wings Over Israel(Third Wire Prod. 2008) and I haven't heard there has been any controversy or problems about it.What's more,CMSF is based in an hypothetical war between USA and Syria.The Israel-Arab countries wars are real and you could play(and eventually win) with either side.

As you are new here you may not be aware that CMSF when announced caused quite a furore and certainly a lot of CMAK etc fans would not buy it. American sales may have made up for some losses as it was generally non- Americans who had views on its "correctness".

Israeli-Arab war games whilst there continues to be bloodshed etc. might be a problem.

I think the desert makes excellent terrain and I must admit I was very surprised that BF did not do North Africa first as I assume scenery etc was to hand and they could concentrate more on the engine, And from a players point of view the bocage is an absolute pig to fight let alone to learn a new game system.

My own observation at WeBoB with around 100+ menmbers then [it was decided that WW2 was the only club acceptable time period] very few played CMSF additionally so for many CMBN was a new game system.

[Sublime]

Yes Childress - Womble basically got it. For one I've often encountered players who do the equivalent of West Front Banzai charges. They weren't purely operational phenomena - and maybe heavily pinned units, or perhaps units that take fire fire from their rear or flanks would occasionally 'berserk' and charge a la Banzai.

However Banzai charges werent clear cut issues either - the Japanese weren't stupid, it wasn't just a shrieking charge everytime. Usually they occurred at night, and usually the Japanese would try to infiltrate as close as possible before openly assaulting the US positions. I really don't see how this would change anything in CM game terms - as a Japanese commander you being ordered to assault the US to the last man or die trying would be much the same as a German commander being ordered to attack Allied positions at all costs in the face of suicidal opposition. (Conraths Counterattack, or almost any German campaign finale?)

As the US I dont think it'd be a boring cutting down of masses. You'd have attack scenarios, assaults on fortifications, ME's, night battles - including tense defenses against buttloads of small groups of Japanese infantry popping up right in front of the lines and amongst them in the darkness...

[Childress]

Sublime: I can see that this could prove diverting, in a whack-a-mole kind of way, from the Allied side. But why should I, as the Axis commander, order an attack that never worked? I get points for my own slaughtered men? (silly) The game penalizes me if I refrain? (intrusive) The CM system can't model insanity*.

Currently we have 'fanatic' squads. But they don't spontaneously coalesce into larger formations and hurl themselves, suicidally, into enemy lines. Unlike the desperate German attacks that occurred as the Reich crumbled, the Bonzai charge remained a feature during the entire war.

And I have other reservations about the retail viability of the setting. Vietnam, too. There's a reason why most of the successful games on the Pacific War put the air and naval aspects front and center. These were interesting. You had sweeping maneuver.

So thumbs up on CM:Korea and CM: Arab Israeli Wars (perfect fit, but it won't happen). Thumbs down on CM: Pacific War/Viet Nam.

*"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

[Sublime]

The einstein quote is good I've heard it applied to addiction as well.

I understand your point buddy - but I think a large part of this was a culture specific to Japan in its religious martial slant, and how seriously the concept of honor and not surrendering was taken. The Germans had similar events in Festung cities, you could say local counter attacks in the Stalingrad kessel were pointless suicide attacks, or even the entire Wacht Am Rhein attack was a massive German Banzai. The banzai attack was a way of trying to at least inflict a tactical defeat, or prolong the inevitable. That it didnt always work was hindsight, and the Japanese did try to shift their strategy to dug in defenders being burned and blasted out, taking Americans with them.

In hindsight the Japanese made many other mistakes - they should perhaps have taken most of the Chinese area troops, pulled back, and used them against the US where possible. They also didn't seem to try to invent and bring into use new weapons - be they infantry, tank, aircraft or otherwise. Part of the problem was, as stated above, a deep deep belief that moral fiber and insane courage could compensate for technology and numbers.

[Childress]

That it didnt always work was hindsight

It never worked against US troops.

and the Japanese did try to shift their strategy to dug in defenders being burned and blasted out, taking Americans with them.

That's true, they did. Your're right. But who will pay $55 for that game? CM: Pest Control?

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of an incident during WWII France. Soldiers being marched in parade past some French general on their way to a bloody battle (Verdun?). Quite spontaneously the soldiers began bleating like sheep as they marched passed, in a contemptuous display signifying 'lambs to the slaughter'. I figure much of what we read of 'national will' on the battlefield is largely an affect of command hubris. Most everybody would prefer to live to fight another day but they're not always given that option. I can imagine our own pixeltruppen looking up from the screen and bleating at us in protest at how willing we are to throw their vitrual little llives away for no good reason.

[CM1fan]

How do you handle Bonzai charges? Think about it...

The correct spelling is "bonsai". I don't know how they'd charge, but I expect agent orange or any other strong herbicide would stop them in their tracks.

[sburke]

Actually it is Banzai. Bonsai is for plants. uhh duh, oh wait herbicide... joke, yeah umm never mind.

(watches as CM1fan passes his hand over his head and mutters "zoom" while rolling his eyes.)

"Banzai（万歳）" literally means ten thousand years (of life). It is written with the combination of the kanji characters for "ten thousand（万）" and "age（歳）."

Bonsai (盆栽, lit. plantings in tray, from bon, a tray or low-sided pot and sai, a planting or plantings,

[Childress]

You're right, sburke. 'Banzai!' was the yell the screaming banshees used.

[Sublime]

Childress I suppose personal bias and preference of theater has as much to do with it though no?

Im sure many would consider N. Africa to simply be desert tank duels. Or 1941 Ost Front the Germans knocking around hordes of conscript Red Army troops.

[Childress]

No, I simply find most (not all) of the ground operations in the Pacific lacking in tactical interest. It's a matter of taste, Sublime. Pace...

[JonS]

No, I simply find most (not all) of the ground operations in the Pacific lacking in tactical interest.

On the upside, though, creating AI plans for the Japanese in a putative CM:PW would be trivially easy - for two thirds of the battle they just sit in place, then they all get up together and charge

(P.S., I agree. CBI has some potentially interesting battle types, as does the Philippines and New Guinea, and maybe Guadalcanal, but the island hopping campaign? *yawn*)

[Michael Emrys]

No, I simply find most (not all) of the ground operations in the Pacific lacking in tactical interest.

Just out of curiosity, how much do you know about the CBI theater in Burma?

Michael

[sburke]

I dunno, I'd love to try doing Guadalcanal in CM.

The battle for Manila rivals any of the urban battle in NW Europe.

[zmoney]

I can't believe this many people are interested in a CM: Pacific. I hate maps now that have a ton of forrest and woods on them. I don't really think the Cm engines are designed for these type of battles. I realize not every battle was fought in the jungle but a lot were and those would be really boring battles from a CM standpoint in my opinion.

[Hurrying Heinz]

iwo-jima make a great stand alone campaign game on the cm engine. obviously it would have its issues but the day to day meatgrinder would be compelling game play. plus state of the art marine technique would mean a whole new tactical suite and of course put up with big casualties. id pay big bucks for that game.

[Childress]

I dunno, I'd love to try doing Guadalcanal in CM.

Like the Battle for Henderson Field where the Japanese lost 2-3,000 and the U.S 80? The disparity being due to incessant and unproductive frontal assaults by the Japanese.

[Hurrying Heinz]

lost long before the assault. the approach march was a debacle. units never found their start lines etc etc and the attack went in peacemeal. chesty and the boys were more than up to it.

[Erwin]

The Japs did a great job at the start of the war fighting through Malaya and taking Singapore, plus Bataan and all the other initial attacks. So, a game on this theater wouldn't all be about insane banzai charge/massacres.

It's when they went on the defensive that things may get a bit boring. I reckon that one amphibious island invasion will be much like another.

[Childress]

There were no doubt some interesting engagements featuring maneuver- mostly early war. The Battles of Khalkhyn Gol? Unfortunately the beach invasions were the most iconic, the subject of many popular films, and utterly tedious from a gaming standpoint. For Iwo Jima tunnels would have to be modeled. And you'd never see a Jap. And there were suicidal charges toward the end. Etc.

[sburke]

Like the Battle for Henderson Field where the Japanese lost 2-3,000 and the U.S 80? The disparity being due to incessant and unproductive frontal assaults by the Japanese.

I was thinking more

Edson's Ridge and

On the night of September 12, Kawaguchi's 1st Battalion attacked the Raiders between the Lunga River and ridge, forcing one Marine company to fall back to the ridge before the Japanese halted their attack for the night. The next night Kawaguchi faced Edson's 830 Raiders with 3,000 troops of his brigade plus an assortment of light artillery. The Japanese attack began just after nightfall with Kawaguchi's 1st battalion assaulting Edson's right flank just to the west of the ridge. After breaking through the Marine lines the battalion's assault was eventually stopped by Marine units guarding the northern part of the ridge.[69]

Two companies from Kawaguchi's 2nd Battalion charged up the southern edge of the ridge and pushed Edson's troops back to Hill 123 on the center part of the ridge. Throughout the night Marines at this position supported by artillery defeated wave after wave of frontal Japanese attacks, some of which resulted in hand-to-hand fighting. Japanese units that infiltrated past the ridge to the edge of the airfield were also repulsed. Attacks by the Kuma battalion and Oka's unit at other locations on the Lunga perimeter were also defeated. On September 14 Kawaguchi led the survivors of his shattered brigade on a five-day march west to the Matanikau Valley to join with Oka's unit.[70] In total Kawaguchi's forces lost about 850 killed and the Marines 104.[71]

the battle on the Mantaniku.

The first U.S. Marine operation conducted between September 23 and 27 by elements of three U.S. Marine battalions, an attack on Japanese forces west of the Matanikau, was repulsed by Kawaguchi's troops under Akinosuke Oka's local command. During the action three Marine companies were surrounded by Japanese forces near Point Cruz west of the Matanikau, took heavy losses, and barely escaped with assistance from the destroyer USS Monssen (DD-436) and landing craft manned by U.S. Coast Guard personnel.[79]

In the second action between October 6 and 9 a larger force of Marines successfully crossed the Matanikau River, attacked newly landed Japanese forces from the 2nd Infantry Division under the command of generals Masao Maruyama and Yumio Nasu, and inflicted heavy losses on the Japanese 4th Infantry Regiment. The second action forced the Japanese to retreat from their positions east of the Matanikau and hindered Japanese preparations for their planned major offensive on the U.S. Lunga defenses.[80]

Between October 9 and 11 the U.S. 1st Battalion 2nd Marines raided two small Japanese outposts about 30 miles (48 km) east of the Lunga perimeter at Gurabusu and Koilotumaria near Aola Bay. The raids killed 35 Japanese at a cost of 17 Marines and three U.S. Navy personnel killed.[81]

[Childress]

It appears you culled some interesting battles from the herd, sburke. The problem is:

Throughout the night Marines at this position supported by artillery defeated wave after wave of frontal Japanese attacks, some of which resulted in hand-to-hand fighting.

(emphasis added)

Sadly, there's no getting around this. And guess what the cover art will be on the cd box of CM:War in the Pacific? Yep. Marines raising the flag on Mount Suribachi. On Iwo Jima. General Kuribayashi, who despised the Banzai concept, eventually succumbed to demand and ordered the final charge which killed him and 300 fanatics. Fifty Marines perished.

[sburke]

Well to be frank is Korea going to be much different?

On the recommendation from a friend I just bought To the last Round

http://www.amazon.com/To-Last-Round-British-Stand/dp/1845135334/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1

When you look at it, that is what we are mostly doing in all theaters and periods, culling something interesting from the herd.

[Childress]

Wow, that book got great reviews! But it's not available for Kindle...

[sburke]

Wow, that book got great reviews! But it's not available for Kindle...

Yeah I know That would have been my first choice.