CM: Korea?

[Michael Emrys]

Vietnam is the same. Yes there'd be a lot of jungle combat - but there'd be other types of terrain and situations as well....there were still a handful of situations that could be represented like the attack on the SF camp with PT 76s, the failed N Vietnamese Offensive in 72 (which had armor) and successful 75 offensive which had armor as well.

Vietnam covering the French/Vietnamese would be great too - there'd be a lot of variety of combat units. To be honest the more I think about Vietnam the more it seems it'd play to CMs strengths as the great majority of battles were small unit firefights that CM represents best...

Concerning armor in Viet Nam, about 30 years ago I read a book on that subject by an officer in the US Army that was an eye opener. One of the surprises was how much of the country was accessible to tanks. Even more was accessible to APCs. He went on to describe several battles in which armor, both light and heavy, had played a decisive role.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Georgie - I know T-34/85s and IS-2's were used and fought US tanks. They also engaged British Centurion tanks. Apparently the Centurion was more than a match, as were US heavy tanks. The late war US tanks such as Sherman 76s and Chaffees had trouble. There was an episode on Military Channel's Greatest Tank Battles about Korea. The British reference comes from a book on the British stand on the Imjim River.

According to the report I posted above the Sherman had a kill ratio of over 3:1 against the T-34/85. I have never seen a report of IS-2s used in combat in Korea but would be interested in any.

[arpella72]

Sounds great. But Battlefront will never stick their fingers in that hornet's nest. They don't want to end up like Salmon Rushdie.

I'd buy any of their games except anything to do with the Pacific or Vietnam: slogs through jungles against often invisible enemies. And very few tanks..

I don't think there was gonna be any problem.There is a game about this conflicts(probably the only one),a flight sim called Wings Over Israel(Third Wire Prod. 2008) and I haven't heard there has been any controversy or problems about it.What's more,CMSF is based in an hypothetical war between USA and Syria.The Israel-Arab countries wars are real and you could play(and eventually win) with either side.

[Sublime]

According to the report I posted above the Sherman had a kill ratio of over 3:1 against the T-34/85. I have never seen a report of IS-2s used in combat in Korea but would be interested in any.

I can dig for you in the British book. FWIW you should check Greatest Tank Battles Korea - pretty sure IS2s are mentioned. If not stand by (later today) for the Brit book. The anecdote was from a British Centurion crew - they swear they KO'd a JS2 at the mouth of a tunnel in a mountainside.

Also Vanir, I dont doubt the report or your sources. However couldn't this be a case of the total telling a deceptive story? The figures provide for such large amounts of time - the US forces went from negligable to gigantic, the N Korea position from near total victory to near defeat. From what I heard early on in the war when the US was more evenly matched armor wise (in numbers) with the North Koreans it was very very tough going..

[$Pec5]

Soviet tanks vs the next generation of American tanks? CM Korea would be such an interesting game

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I would cerainly like to see Battlefront cover other conflicts post WW2 icluding Korea, Vietnam, India - Pakistan and the Arab-Isreali Wars (controversial but perhaps less so if they just cover the earlier 1948 - 1982 conflicts, not the contempory actions which miight be a bit much for some people. However I would like to see much more of WW2 done first including the early Blitzkrieg campaigns. Should BF bring out more modern titles as they continue WW2 work that iis fine by me.

[$Pec5]

I completely agree. There is a lot more WWII content that I would like to see BFC cover before (or during) they move onto other conflicts

[Childress]

Childress I think if you read into either settings you disapprove of you'd find plenty of tactical situations that offer a lot of variety and exciting situations.

How do you handle Bonzai charges? Think about it...

[Erwin]

Hell, a Korean conflict set today would be interesting.

I do wish that CM2 was more moddable, so that we could mod Arab-Israeli, Korean, even India-Pakistan (although since that's Red on Red can we not already do that in CMSF?).

BTW: Had a conversation with Chinese rep yesterday and he swore up and down that the west has nothing to fear from any Chinese military expansionism. So, modding that theater is going to be a bust lol.

[Sublime]

How do you handle Bonzai charges? Think about it...

Granted. However Banzai charges usually occurred earlier in the war, especially in cases where the Japanese knew the battle had been lost. However a shift in strategy occurred around 1943 where you see the Japanese deciding to bitterly cost American lives for every little bunker and dug out. Lots of small unit attacks/counter attacks and bitter fighting on Pelelieu, Tarawa, Iwo, Okinawa. Phillipines. Shoot even combat in China, Singapore, Burma, Vietnam. New Guinea, Guadalcanal. All kinds of stuff. Manchuria could be done, maybe even Soviet stuff....

[Sublime]

Vanir it was in To the Last Round: The Epic British Stand on the Imjim by Andrew Salmon. Turns out I read it as a library book so I dont have a copy handy - I definitely remember the IS2 reference, however it WAS an anecdote from a British Centurion gunner and he could definitely have mistaken a 34/85 and IS 2.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I can dig for you in the British book. FWIW you should check Greatest Tank Battles Korea - pretty sure IS2s are mentioned. If not stand by (later today) for the Brit book. The anecdote was from a British Centurion crew - they swear they KO'd a JS2 at the mouth of a tunnel in a mountainside.

Also Vanir, I dont doubt the report or your sources. However couldn't this be a case of the total telling a deceptive story? The figures provide for such large amounts of time - the US forces went from negligable to gigantic, the N Korea position from near total victory to near defeat. From what I heard early on in the war when the US was more evenly matched armor wise (in numbers) with the North Koreans it was very very tough going..

Vanir it was in To the Last Round: The Epic British Stand on the Imjim by Andrew Salmon. Turns out I read it as a library book so I dont have a copy handy - I definitely remember the IS2 reference, however it WAS an anecdote from a British Centurion gunner and he could definitely have mistaken a 34/85 and IS 2.

I took your advice and watched Greatest Tank Battles Korea. You are correct that the first tank engagements went poorly for the US, but these seem to have been M24 Chaffee tanks. The Shermans and Pershings were not committed to battle until the Pusan Perimeter had been established, after which things turned around quickly. It was interesting that both the Pershing and Sherman crew members they interviewed indicated that they had little trouble dealing with North Korean tanks, although the Sherman crew member felt this was more a reflection on the poor quality of NK crew training than on the T-34 itself.

[Michael Emrys]

Granted. However Banzai charges usually occurred earlier in the war, especially in cases where the Japanese knew the battle had been lost. However a shift in strategy occurred around 1943...

Just a footnote: There was something that could well be called a banzai charge during the last stages of the battle for Iwo Jima. A group of Japanese soldiers sneaked out of a cave and infiltrated an area where tents were set up for mostly lightly armed aviation personnel. Before they were exterminated, they managed to kill or wound several Americans.

Michael

[mjkerner]

How do you handle Bonzai charges? Think about it...

Take away their credit cards!

But seriously, what exactly do you mean? Surely if BFC did do the PTO, they would program AI units to randomly get Fanatic and Fast or Quick move to the nearest enemy unit. Something like that. You could have a Banzai move option when you played the Japanese.

...Oh hell, I don't know...but I have implicit faith in Charles and Steve to work it out!

[Childress]

Granted. However Banzai charges usually occurred earlier in the war, especially in cases where the Japanese knew the battle had been lost. However a shift in strategy occurred around 1943 where you see the Japanese deciding to bitterly cost American lives for every little bunker and dug out. Lots of small unit attacks/counter attacks and bitter fighting on Pelelieu, Tarawa, Iwo, Okinawa. Phillipines. Shoot even combat in China, Singapore, Burma, Vietnam. New Guinea, Guadalcanal. All kinds of stuff. Manchuria could be done, maybe even Soviet stuff....

The greatest Banzai charge took place during the Battle of Saipan in 1944. They were prominent at Guadalcanal and many other 'marquee' engagements. These charges were the compulsive product of the lunatic Bushido ethos. Against U.S. troops they were nearly uniformly unsuccessful.

From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.https://www.google.com/org/wiki/Banzai_charge)

The banzai charge can be considered one of the least efficient strategies used in the Pacific War in terms of Japanese-to-American casualty ratios.

If present in a BF-type game the Japanese player would have to be compelled to resort to this tactic by some intrusive mechanism. One can already hear the moans arising from the forums. Kamikaze attacks were more productive. But the Bonzai charges were a persistent feature in the Pacific war.

Nah....

Edit: Haha, MJKerner!

[Rokko]

Banzai charges were not meant to be successfull. They were a means of suicide by enemy fire, not really a military tactic

[mjkerner]

The greatest Banzai charge took place during the Battle of Saipan in 1944. From Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.https://www.google.com/org/wiki/Banzai_charge)

My Dad was in the 105th/27th and in the middle of that. Well, he was on the flank with 3rd Bn, which avoided the full head-on thrust the rest of the Regiment faced. But still.

Pfc. Francis E. Saunders, BAR gunner. Rest in Peace.

[Michael Emrys]

...Oh hell, I don't know...but I have implicit faith in Charles and Steve to work it out!

They already did something similar in x1 with the human wave attacks in CMBB.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Banzai charges were not meant to be successfull. They were a means of suicide by enemy fire, not really a military tactic

I don't think that's true, certainly not in the early part of the war. They were great believers in "the moral is to the material as three is to one." They genuinely believed that they could overrun the American positions by the mere impetus of an all-out charge that would shock the defenders into inaction. It just didn't work out that way.

Michael

[Childress]

My Dad was in the 105th/27th and in the middle of that. Well, he was on the flank with 3rd Bn, which avoided the full head-on thrust the rest of the Regiment faced. But still.

Pfc. Francis E. Saunders, BAR gunner. Rest in Peace.

Indeed. Saunders= Kerner?

We have something in common, MJK. My older, half-sister's father was killed by a Kamikaze pilot at Leyte in 1944. Before she was born. Apparently the lunatic dived bombed into an ammunition dump. My mother always refused to visit his grave in Long Island because' there was nothing left of him'. She wasn't sentimental... Years later she married my father.

[mjkerner]

Hi Childress, I think I may have mislead you. My Dad didn't die on Saipan, he died in 2008 at age 87!

But we do have something in common. My Dad's first cousin was on the DD Hoel at the Battle of Samar when she went after the BB Kongo in order to save the Baby Flattops of Taffy 3. He was killed apparently after the sinking...his brother did a lot of research on it and he made it into the water, but was never rescued after that.

A Big Salute to all the brave souls of WWII.

P.S. Saunders is my real name. Kerner is my stage (Interwebs) name.

[Sublime]

Vanir - The show isnt that great sometimes but I do like the personal recollections. Some great Ost Front stuff there too. I never claimed to be an authority on Korea, I just remembered from that show and other stuff that the US with Chaffees (which apparently was most of what was on hand initially) had trouble with the NK tanks. Enough anyways to make a CM game there interesting.

Emrys - you can see 'Banzai' attacks all through the war on the Japanese side - I never meant to imply there never were Banzai attacks after 43 as everyone pointed out, Saipan etc. My point was there was a definite shift in Japanese strategy after that point. Early in the war, whether by design or Shinto militaristic logic, when it became obvious the battle was lost the Japanese tended to Banzai en masse. Often with orders from the CO to all of his men. One could also postulate this is perhaps why even as late as Okinawa Japanese soldiers would sally forth as it were in tactical situations were they were trapped sometimes; as to whether it was a form of suicide or a desperate tactic, just like Kamikaze attacks, suicide bombers, etc. is more up for debate. I think frankly it was both, it was a sort of admission that the battle would be lost if continued at that right, and was an all or nothing roll of the dice to try and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Or at least kill a lot of GIs and go out in a blaze of glory. However later in the war, around 43 or so, the Japanese command recommended commanders dig in, and use tunnels and bunkers to try to kill as many US as possible to try to force an armistice. IIRC the strategy also emphasized an inland defense if possible, as opposed to an on the beaches defense.

Also Emrys, yes the attack on Iwo Jima was Japanese infiltrators who got into B29 crew's barracks. They announced their presence by stabbing and beheading sleeping crewmen and raised all sorts of hell.

I don't necessarily think Banzai charges would have to be modelled intrusively at all. CM isnt an operational level game. There are plenty of local counter attack actions, or defense line attacks, night patrols, meeting engagements etc. in the Pacific. Banzai charges would really just be the same as an amateurish player charging a whole company of Tommies (or whatever flavor you choose) at dug in defenders, unless perhaps in the briefing you were told to charge at all costs or something..

[Childress]

Bonzai attacks were an'operational' phenomenon?

[Childress]

Hi Childress, I think I may have mislead you. My Dad didn't die on Saipan, he died in 2008 at age 87!

I got that, mjk. BTW, Franz Stigel and Charlie Brown, the principals in A Higher Call, both died n 2008.

[womble]

Bonzai attacks were an'operational' phenomenon?

I think he's saying that CM players will not have inhibitions based on operational concerns of force preservation against [do-or-die|suicide] charges.