Gustav Line Beta AAR Round Two PEANUT GALLERY

[Vanir Ausf B]

I just wondered if this is generally acceptable in H2H because, as you say, it is impossible to avoid knowing what you oughtn't too.

I don't think I have ever seen a rule for PBEM play that prohibits it. That's not to suggest that nobody plays with such a rule, but I am fairly sure they would be the exception. Those types of rules that I have seen in the past were mainly for play against the AI to increase the challenge. The closest thing to a H2H rule that I recall was against the infamous gamey jeep rush, although that was an extreme version of gamey scouting that used the scout as a suicide unit to reveal the location of AT guns.

[JonS]

Otherwise we are dealing with a non-realistic scenario here.

It's a QB.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Makes no difference. You can do the same thing in scenarios, and people do.

[JonS]

True. And that makes no difference either, for the reasons you stated.

[Andrew H.]

So am I following this correctly: GaJ took out two of Bil's HTs, one with an ATG and one with an MMG? But because they died at about the same time, and because there was MG fire involved, Bil thinks that they were taken out by an AA gun that penetrated both vehicles? Or have I missed something?

[John Kettler]

Vanir Ausf B,

Back in CMBO, I was on the receiving end of a "Rat Patrol" jeep attack. One racing jeep somehow penetrated my line, hooked a right and came rolling smartly down the flank of my position, using my interior road. The .50 hosed the flank of my Hetzer and killed my poor little hedgehog!

Chops,

Well, for now we'll just have to make do with the synaptic interrupt on Bil's brain. Every time a radioless KW or runnerless scout detects one of GreenAsJade's units, the synaptic interrupt will zap his brain enough to delay registering the info in his BPC (Battle Planning Computer) neural circuitry. Still unresolved presently is how he's supposed to fight while thus disrupted. If he asks, tell him we're modeling "operational degrades." That was how Soviet SAMs mysteriously went from PK 0.5 to PK .03 during my military aerospace days. Naturally, ours were unaffected!

Andrew H.,

You may be right. Nice to see FOW works, even in the face of Bil's relentlessly analytical combat approach. It's really so good, though, that Bil believes he lost two HTs--when they're really inside that box with Schrodinger's cat!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Offshoot]

So am I following this correctly: GaJ took out two of Bil's HTs, one with an ATG and one with an MMG? But because they died at about the same time, and because there was MG fire involved, Bil thinks that they were taken out by an AA gun that penetrated both vehicles? Or have I missed something?

I don't think the turns are synchronised. My reading is, Bil lost two half tracks to GaJ's AT gun but thinks that it was an AA HT that got them. Meanwhile, GaJ is unaware that he got two for the price of one as he did not have eyes on the 2nd HT; he also thinks that Bil will now be on the hunt for his AT gun, although Bil apparently doesn't know anything about it. I don't think Bil has the round yet where GaJ's MMG damages his other HT. I must admit, I'm a bit confused about how many HTs Bil has left now or what they were each carrying at this point.

So, is recon by HT a good tactic?

[John Kettler]

Regiment0,

That depends on where you are, what kind of recon you're trying to do, threat level, cover, concealment, time available, the stakes and more. Simply gadding about in a weakly protected AFV is a really bad idea, but carefully scouting on foot while covering with the HT's MG/cannon is a pretty good one--if the HT is well masked except for the MG/cannon and the partially exposed gunner and/or crew. If scouting while mounted, you really want a turreted AC, since you never know where that threat will appear, but sometimes, life isn't perfect. You have to use what you've got and make the best of it.

For Bil, right now, losing a few HTs, if their loss tells him important stuff he really needs to know, is a no-brainer. For he can now turn loose his heavily armored horde and impressive mortars on whatever the RBD uncovered.

In the broader sense, I feel that, while the cold equation approach to battle certainly has merit, it needs to be combined with instinct, timing and the willingness to risk. Sometimes, a few HTs, well handled, can unhinge an entire defensive scheme, especially in poor visual conditions in which it's possible to move while all but unseen. A few recon teams, inserted by HT behind the enemy's MLR (Main Line of Resistance), can uncover all sorts of secrets--and get actionable reports back to HQ. Take the exact same resources, on a bright clear day on flattish ground, and the life expectancy of HTs and recon teams drops precipitously. There assuredly is military science in running recon by HT, but there are also art and gut feel. Ignore the last, and you're generally toast.

Regards,

John Kettler

[slysniper]

I don't think the turns are synchronised. My reading is, Bil lost two half tracks to GaJ's AT gun but thinks that it was an AA HT that got them. Meanwhile, GaJ is unaware that he got two for the price of one as he did not have eyes on the 2nd HT; he also thinks that Bil will now be on the hunt for his AT gun, although Bil apparently doesn't know anything about it. I don't think Bil has the round yet where GaJ's MMG damages his other HT. I must admit, I'm a bit confused about how many HTs Bil has left now or what they were each carrying at this point.

So, is recon by HT a good tactic?

Most of what you said appears true. I messed up asking GAJ about the quad HT, but it appears he has no clue about Bil knowing it is out there. What I find more interesting is Bil is so sure that is what killed his HT's and that it didnt even fire. A little game fog of war going on here. But that is OK.

As to the fellow thinking Bil should not act on his scouting with non radio units. Good luch with that rule. You might be able to play that way with your brother, but one of the main facts of playing computer games is that you do not need to debate over the rules of the game because the program is the rule judge. whatever the game allows is normally acceptable. Now having some house rules can be had between players, but in general I find these have to be pretty basic and something that can be easy to judge as to if the other player is following by them rules. Like no 88's bought or no pre arty bombing of set up zones. But how would you ever know if the other guy was following your non radio scouting rule. Lets just imagine when he was sent on the scouting mission his commander gave him orders to send up flare signals to let him know if he spotted enemy units in certain sectors, ok. Now the whole situation is non - gamey, well not really. but it is a game, so really it will always be gamey no matter how hard you try to make it otherwise.

[JonS]

Lets just imagine when he was sent on the scouting mission his commander gave him orders to send up flare signals to let him know if he spotted enemy units in certain sectors, ok.

yup, or hand signals, or sooper sekrit whistles, or ...

Aye.

[womble]

It should be standard operating procedure to not use intel gained in a gamey way. As I mentioned above, Bil should not use any spotting info learned from his borg scouts until they return to near their commanding officer.

Oh, so you actually meant that. I thought you were being "funny". Get real.

[kensal]

I don't think I have ever seen a rule for PBEM play that prohibits it. That's not to suggest that nobody plays with such a rule, but I am fairly sure they would be the exception. Those types of rules that I have seen in the past were mainly for play against the AI to increase the challenge. The closest thing to a H2H rule that I recall was against the infamous gamey jeep rush, although that was an extreme version of gamey scouting that used the scout as a suicide unit to reveal the location of AT guns.

Nothing gamey about jeep or Bren carrier or ht recon: there are recorded instances of such units being ordered to recon enemy held areas to provoke fire and so reveal enemy locations.

[Michael Emrys]

So, is recon by HT a good tactic?

Supplementary to what JK said, a perfectly historical way to go in favorable circumstances would be to send a jeep/KW in front backed up by an AC or light tank a few hundred meters back but close enough to keep the jeep/KW in sight as well as to be able to observe any locales from which fire might come. Naturally, the jeep/KW should be maneuvering at speed and in unpredictable ways so as to maximize its survival chances.

Michael

[snake_eye]

Right now, I think after analyzing the situation that Bil is somehow less sure of what he should do after its 2 HT’s loss. That should not stay that way too long, but we can say that he is halted and rather in defence right now, having stopped its left assault.

For the rest, his SITREP (with a very good SITMAP) is well done since he is assessing rather rightly the different NAI that might cause problem. He also has clearly identified the Key Objectives and seems satisfied of the Intel he has collected despites its HT’s losses.

On my part, just looking at Bil’s topo map and without any Intel, I had clearly identified the South Ridge as the key to an attack toward Santa Maria Infante and I had clearly ruled out any HT’s and or tanks penetration farther away than the Tits (I wrote it to Bil.and was rightly at the time rebuked – No tactical information should be given to the players) They are best used as an observation post than as a staging area for a frontal assault and or lateral (right against the Spur and left against the South Hills) one starting from there.

I still really think that a quick assault toward Hill 109 (its axis being on the far left and passing behind the ridge of the hill) and later Hill 128 with the PZ IV’s and the mounted Grenadiers (The PZ IV’s moving along the HT’s, stopping overwatching, firing and so on) would have been better. I would not have stopped on the way, speed being essential (it is best to leave behind some troops completely disorganized, than stop and fight them). Meanwhile the Brumbars and the Elefant will provide a fire base, mortars and whatever field guns available will have pounded Tame and Santa Maria ridge line with smoke and HE to interdict any assistance to the troops that could be in the Hills 109 to 128 area.

That is a classic left hook move. If Santa Maria is reached, the spur will fall and the entire right defense.

The delay that Bil is affording to Gaj permits him to reorient its defense. Yet, doing so is not without any risk, it might not allow him to face the enemy attack with the right forces. Forces that have not yet been seen might be revealed during these moves.

The unknown at the moment is how the commands issued both by Bil and GaJ will be followed by their forces (their AI moral is not a copy of the player’s one).

If GaJ defense is able to respond to a coming attack with its AA, ATG’s and M10’s with some success and if that permits Bil coming attack to slacken, I think that this battle will end in a stalemate.

After all it nearly happened in the real battle and it did not matter that the Germans were the defenders and the Americans the attackers.

None the less I greatly enjoy reading that AAR. Bil is writing it with its Military background, in a typical comprehensive way, that I like most. GaJ does not do it the same way, but describes it sufficiently. He is in constant progress and whatever some people might think, he does fight pretty well, considering the way he did it in the preceding AAR. If we come to a stalemate to me he will be the winner.

Let’s no forget however than the grounds of that battle are in favor of the defender.

Cheer

[TheVulture]

Bill and GaJ seem to have such differeneces in what they can see and what they think is going on that you'd almost think they were fighting completely different battles at this point. Bil occupies the tits, while GaJ, with eyes on the tits sees nothing. GaJ sees one ATG take out a HT with some MMg fire providing sound effects, while Bil sees a quad QQ (assumed) take out two HTs. I think they'll find this all rather amusing when they get around to reading the other side when the battle is over.

[Hister]

Bill and GaJ seem to have such differeneces in what they can see and what they think is going on that you'd almost think they were fighting completely different battles at this point. Bil occupies the tits, while GaJ, with eyes on the tits sees nothing. GaJ sees one ATG take out a HT with some MMg fire providing sound effects, while Bil sees a quad QQ (assumed) take out two HTs. I think they'll find this all rather amusing when they get around to reading the other side when the battle is over.

it's more likely that 2 HT's got penetrated by a singl ATG shot and the 3rd HT got hit by a MMG and reversed back. It's just that Bil hasn't posted that turn yet.

I lost track of how many casualties each of the players has sustained so far. Anyone counting?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Nothing gamey about jeep or Bren carrier or ht recon: there are recorded instances of such units being ordered to recon enemy held areas to provoke fire and so reveal enemy locations.

It was more of an issue in the CMx1 games which had Borg spotting and unarmored vehicles that were strangely hard to kill.

[womble]

it's more likely that 2 HT's got penetrated by a singl ATG shot and the 3rd HT got hit by a MMG and reversed back. It's just that Bil hasn't posted that turn yet.

Looks like he's coming to a similar conclusion...

[A Canadian Cat]

Nothing gamey about jeep or Bren carrier or ht recon

I'll take the Bren carrier over the jeep - those are tough little buggers.

[A Canadian Cat]

As to the fellow thinking Bil should not act on his scouting with non radio units. Good luch with that rule.

...

Now having some house rules can be had between players, but in general I find these have to be pretty basic and something that can be easy to judge as to if the other player is following by them rules. Like no 88's bought or no pre arty bombing of set up zones. But how would you ever know if the other guy was following your non radio scouting rule.

+1 to that. In CM1x would you have a house rule that you had to pretend that only the unit that initially spotted an enemy unit could act on that information?

You cannot unsee what you have seen. It is much better to let the game deal the FOW out to each player and just accept what you get - at least in the context of a particular game.

[A Canadian Cat]

Bill and GaJ seem to have such differeneces in what they can see and what they think is going on that you'd almost think they were fighting completely different battles at this point

This kind of thing just reminds me how much I love this game. It is so fantastic to have true FOW. No one sided information or umpire in a miniature game. No, each side gets x blank counters to confuse the enemy of the old hex games. We get to play with the information we have got.

[Chops]

Oh, so you actually meant that. I thought you were being "funny". Get real.

I am being very real. In fact that is why most of us read the Forums and play CM is because of Battlefront's dedication to realism.

Exploiting an inherent flaw in the game engine, is in fact, gaminess. I am just calling a spade a spade.

I feel that there should be standard operating procedures or house rules for human vs. human game play, especially in a public AAR showcasing a new module. One of these rules should prevent the use of borg scouts.

Acting on and processing information received from scouts should only be accepted if there is a clear chain of communication between the scout and his commanding officer. This could be visual or radio net, or a combination, however there must be clear lines of communication.

No offense meant to Bil, since apparently house rules were not set before the scenario started. However, the use of borg scouts to bring heavy fire power on the Allied Force will affect the game outcome.

[c3k]

I am being very real. In fact that is why most of us read the Forums and play CM is because of Battlefront's dedication to realism.

Exploiting an inherent flaw in the game engine, is in fact, gaminess. I am just calling a spade a spade.

I feel that there should be standard operating procedures or house rules for human vs. human game play, especially in a public AAR showcasing a new module. One of these rules should prevent the use of borg scouts.

Acting on and processing information received from scouts should only be accepted if there is a clear chain of communication between the scout and his commanding officer. This could be visual or radio net, or a combination, however there must be clear lines of communication.

No offense meant to Bil, since apparently house rules were not set before the scenario started. However, the use of borg scouts to bring heavy fire power on the Allied Force will affect the game outcome.

I understand what you're saying. However, if I have a great "sense" for hiding spots, should I be prevented from area firing on a stand of trees? Of course not. Now, how about if I send a gamey jeep rush over there? If they spot an enemy, should I _then_ be prevented from area firing on that stand of trees? Of course not.

I have a decent circle of pbem opponents. We play well together. I've had a few who've quit in mid-game, always when losing. As well, a rare gamey player: setup zone bombardment type. I think the community is a bit self-selecting when it comes to acceptable style of play.

As for Bil sending a couple of KW's up the flanks, well, a good defense wouldn't let that happen, would it? GaJ is a bit too porous in that regard. The tall grass makes a solid defense a bear.

I'm ambivalent on whether or not it's "gamey", especially in this circumstance. If I were playing vs. Bil, I'd not take offense. (Well, being who I am, of course I'd take offense. I'd drag that KW spy back to HQ and interrogate his ass! Attack is to the defense as 3 is to 1. Or somesuch. )

Ken

[herr_oberst]

Most of what you said appears true. I messed up asking GAJ about the quad HT, but it appears he has no clue about Bil knowing it is out there. What I find more interesting is Bil is so sure that is what killed his HT's and that it didnt even fire. A little game fog of war going on here. But that is OK.

As to the fellow thinking Bil should not act on his scouting with non radio units. Good luch with that rule. You might be able to play that way with your brother, but one of the main facts of playing computer games is that you do not need to debate over the rules of the game because the program is the rule judge. whatever the game allows is normally acceptable. Now having some house rules can be had between players, but in general I find these have to be pretty basic and something that can be easy to judge as to if the other player is following by them rules. Like no 88's bought or no pre arty bombing of set up zones. But how would you ever know if the other guy was following your non radio scouting rule. Lets just imagine when he was sent on the scouting mission his commander gave him orders to send up flare signals to let him know if he spotted enemy units in certain sectors, ok. Now the whole situation is non - gamey, well not really. but it is a game, so really it will always be gamey no matter how hard you try to make it otherwise.

Yeppers. And how many sniper's ran about with radios strapped to their backs, hence radioing back to GaJ, "Hey I see X on the back side of the left tit." The limitations of the game apply to both opponents, so it's not as dreadful an issue as some are making it seem I think.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I am being very real. In fact that is why most of us read the Forums and play CM is because of Battlefront's dedication to realism.

Exploiting an inherent flaw in the game engine, is in fact, gaminess. I am just calling a spade a spade.

I feel that there should be standard operating procedures or house rules for human vs. human game play, especially in a public AAR showcasing a new module. One of these rules should prevent the use of borg scouts.

Acting on and processing information received from scouts should only be accepted if there is a clear chain of communication between the scout and his commanding officer. This could be visual or radio net, or a combination, however there must be clear lines of communication.

No offense meant to Bil, since apparently house rules were not set before the scenario started. However, the use of borg scouts to bring heavy fire power on the Allied Force will affect the game outcome.

I don't think it is a flaw in the engine so much as it is a deliberate design decision. Regardless of that, I find the idea of a house rule against "Borg scouting" intriguing. But I can see this getting complicated. For example, if a platoon HQ gets whacked you now have a whole platoon that is out of C2. Do you ignore all of their spotting information too? As ian.leslie pointed out, once something has been seen it cannot be unseen.

But if you can find someone to agree to it there is nothing wrong with it. I play with a list of house rules myself, most of them common but some peculiar to my own ideas about the game, such as limits on what experience level tanks can be purchases as in QBs.