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GreenAsJade

Gustav Line Beta AAR Round Two PEANUT GALLERY

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AP mines: GaJ identified the blind spots around the right tit. A few AP mines in the sheltered hollows near the base of the tit would be pretty useful.

10 AT mines - 250 pts. An Elefant immobilized in a blind spot...Priceless. :D

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Ehm, did you see that Bill has also 4 pzIV's? The H-version.

I totally missed that! Pretty sneaky of Bil to hide them... I like that. ;)

Off to re-read Bil's purchases...

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I really like Bil's force selection; a lot of MG and Arty firesupport. He is light on infantry as he noted, but to be honest I don't think he will need them. The SturmPanzer IVs can pound anything and are pretty impervious to whatever the US can throw at them; the TDs or even PzIVs can provide AT cover. The HTs are fragile but can provide a lot of long range suppression. Of course it goes without saying Bil's analysis is tops, envious even :)

I like the Ranger Coy pick fron GAJ, though I am not so sure on the HMG bunkers or 76mm AT guns. I would have been more inclined with a few more and smaller AT guns myself, and dropped the bunkers for something else - namely some TRPs. More the puzzling because GAJ selected them last game so fully knows their advantages. He correctly identified the L/R Tit features as key terrain, knowing Bil will need to secure it before advancing and it appears he will make him fight for it. Obvious or not, it would still be an ideal place to setup TRPs and sacrificial ambushes for a few nasty surprises.

Really looking forward to this match.

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10 AT mines - 250 pts. An Elefant immobilized in a blind spot...Priceless. :D

AT mines? Meh. Drive a tank over em on slow. It can go right over the mines without even being immobilized - just moderate track damage.

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I have a feeling that GaJ would have been better off using his foxholes for the ATGs to extend their life against artillery and Brumbar shelling. Anyone know if foxholes would have made the ATGs easier to spot?

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Did anyone buy some of the new AA's?

I believe GaJ has a quad-fifty. "Some AA" was one of his force pick parameters, in the same way that Bil was expected to bring a Heffalump.

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Looks ugly for GaJ. He bought a decent force, but one structured for a force that includes more than a single platoon of infantry. Unfortunately for GaJ as well the German heavy tanks, in addition to the others, (not to mention the game favors armor) means he's going to have a real hell of a fight to stop Bil.

Interesting Bil didnt know GaJ couldn't buy Sherman 76s as this date.

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GaJ should have 'cheated'. You know how you can switch gameplay from Allied-vs-Axis to Axis-vs-Axis and back? Imagine Bills' surprise if GaJ had fielded a couple 88 Pak 43s with his units! :D;)

How well are Brummbaers protected agains ATG fire?

Speaking as the first guy to play a Brummbar battle months ago (;)) they're TOUGH - as long as you can keep them hull-down and facing forward. That PzIV lower hull is their Achilles heel.

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GaJ should have 'cheated'. You know how you can switch gameplay from Allied-vs-Axis to Axis-vs-Axis and back? Imagine Bills' surprise if GaJ had fielded a couple 88 Pak 43s with his units! :D;)

You can't do that in QBs.

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It could/should be a good fight. From GaJ's side, I'd think that at least a few AT mines to shut down the road at a convenient point. If not a kill from the mines, then at least slow the armor for a good measured flank shot from an ATG.

The AA HT absolutely has to be used in a shoot and scoot fashion. Pop up, blast away, then flee to reappear somewhere else. It won't last long parked anywhere. Bill's 120's are likely to score some devastating, if lucky, hits. Close counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and 120 mm mortars.

And as a final note, I really hope that GaJ's snipers account for 2 or 3 TC's. That would make life interesting for Bill.

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Hopefully for GaJ's sake that grass gives as much concealment as the graphics suggest. Being able to remain hidden so to ambush from close(ish) range is going to be very important I think.

I agree with Herr Oberst. Mines to slow Bill down in a kill zone would be very useful.

That said the amount of firepower at Bill's disposal is going to make it very messy for the Rangers me thinks.

-F

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You guys keep saying mines - go test them out and see if you have much faith anymore. Im telling ya - yea sure you run a tank over them at fast it may immob. and a H/T it'll kill but somethings wrong with the mines. If you drive a tank over on SLOW it'll only take moderate track damage from a DIRECT MINE HIT. It doesnt sound right to me.

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AT mines? Meh. Drive a tank over em on slow. It can go right over the mines without even being immobilized - just moderate track damage.

+1 TO THAT. I JUST HAD CHURCHILLS DO IT TWICE.

I thought they should get a immobilization for entering the mine field at least. Both made it out and one of the two actually set off two mines. So I was like unbeleiving my luck there. But now I wonder what the odds are. Because up to that point Tank mines had been pretty deadly in general for me in past games.

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I think GaJ's force pick would have been really good against a primarily infantry or mounted infantry force, but I fear that it is much too vulnerable against armor. But we'll see. If he gets some lucky kills against the armor early on, he could turn the tables on Bil. but this defense is heavily dependent on luck, and for my part I really don't like to trust in luck.

BTW, I am inclined toward the view that on this map, both forces are too small. I think they both should have been 25-50% bigger. But whatever... Come what may, I expect it to be an interesting game.

Michael

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GAJ's AT guns are going to be vulnerable once they're spotted, Bill has all those mortars to use in direct fire mode so GAJ needs to get some first shot kills to be successful.

I think he mentioned that he wanted some Sherman 76's but there weren't any available for purchase. I'm not sure if I wouldn't have chosen the Sherman 75's over the 76mm AT Guns, just for the added mobility in defense.

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+1 TO THAT. I JUST HAD CHURCHILLS DO IT TWICE.

I thought they should get a immobilization for entering the mine field at least. Both made it out and one of the two actually set off two mines. So I was like unbeleiving my luck there. But now I wonder what the odds are. Because up to that point Tank mines had been pretty deadly in general for me in past games.

Awesome, now you can begin agitating with me. I think if people even noticed the posts they'd be alarmed. I've seen the community get way whipped up over less before. Something I think changed in the patch - in stock original CMBN I saw AT mines routinely immobilize or even kill shermans and other armor. The moderate track damage happened 3 times in one battle with me, with different types of enemy armor hitting the AT mines. Note Im not saying they drove thru the field and luckily didnt hit anything, Im talking dead on run over a mine explosion and it doesnt faze them. This, I'm almost certain, is a bug.

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Awesome, now you can begin agitating with me. I think if people even noticed the posts they'd be alarmed. I've seen the community get way whipped up over less before. Something I think changed in the patch - in stock original CMBN I saw AT mines routinely immobilize or even kill shermans and other armor. The moderate track damage happened 3 times in one battle with me, with different types of enemy armor hitting the AT mines. Note Im not saying they drove thru the field and luckily didnt hit anything, Im talking dead on run over a mine explosion and it doesnt faze them. This, I'm almost certain, is a bug.

Start a thread and do testing a la the 1.x MG effectiveness and Baneman's HT gunners threads... Might get some traction.

-F

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I think he mentioned that he wanted some Sherman 76's but there weren't any available for purchase. I'm not sure if I wouldn't have chosen the Sherman 75's over the 76mm AT Guns, just for the added mobility in defense.

Or he could have bought more M10s. That would have given him both mobility and 76s.

Michael

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Start a thread and do testing a la the 1.x MG effectiveness and Baneman's HT gunners threads... Might get some traction.

-F

exactly. One off observations aren't enough. BF likes real data and it can't be left to just a handful of people to provide or you'll just have to wait until they feel the need to get to your particular issue. Besides, maybe you'll find the data over a lot of iterations gives you different results than you currently expect. Small data sets are prone to error.

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Awesome, now you can begin agitating with me. I think if people even noticed the posts they'd be alarmed. I've seen the community get way whipped up over less before. Something I think changed in the patch - in stock original CMBN I saw AT mines routinely immobilize or even kill shermans and other armor. The moderate track damage happened 3 times in one battle with me, with different types of enemy armor hitting the AT mines. Note Im not saying they drove thru the field and luckily didnt hit anything, Im talking dead on run over a mine explosion and it doesnt faze them. This, I'm almost certain, is a bug.

To quench this, you don't need to start a thread. A beta has already noted it and run some tests. Consider BFC to be aware that there is a question about the power of AT mines.

Onto the game: GaJ did well trying to cover the approaches. However, his force will, of necessity, be static. That does not bode well...

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Fenris and Burke - I barely have time to play a pbem turn or two every other day with school and my two year old son. I'm not conducting lane tests for hours, sorry. As much as I love the game, it is a product I purchased - I'm not being paid at all to test for bugs. And hey thats fine, but I'd rather spend any free time I have playing my game, not running tests thank you very much. However I don't think my observations are necessarily invalid, even though they're subjective. Ive played probably almost as much CM as anyone here except beta testers, and I've noticed bugs before that were confirmed.

C3K - Well I did start a thread on it, and it seemed to be promptly forgotten. Im glad BFC is looking into it. I still have the wandering crew member turn, Ive just been so busy and when I view your dropbox folder it doesnt allow me to add files. Should I create one and invite you?

Also be advised I've noticed this in CMBN not CMFI. I honestly dont know if the problem is the same in FI and these observations are CM 2.01 It may not include FI, as AT mines in BN worked great before 2.01

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Fenris and Burke - I barely have time to play a pbem turn or two every other day with school and my two year old son. I'm not conducting lane tests for hours, sorry. As much as I love the game, it is a product I purchased - I'm not being paid at all to test for bugs. And hey thats fine, but I'd rather spend any free time I have playing my game, not running tests thank you very much. However I don't think my observations are necessarily invalid, even though they're subjective. Ive played probably almost as much CM as anyone here except beta testers, and I've noticed bugs before that were confirmed.

C3K - Well I did start a thread on it, and it seemed to be promptly forgotten. Im glad BFC is looking into it. I still have the wandering crew member turn, Ive just been so busy and when I view your dropbox folder it doesnt allow me to add files. Should I create one and invite you?

Also be advised I've noticed this in CMBN not CMFI. I honestly dont know if the problem is the same in FI and these observations are CM 2.01 It may not include FI, as AT mines in BN worked great before 2.01

Just to back up what you are saying. Mine happened in CMBN 2.01 also.

Like you, I had 3 AT tank mine explosions to my Churchills within two turns and had nothing more than some damage to the tracks and that was not even major. So I thought the same thing, maybe extremely lucky, but more likely something might be up with the latest release.

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Thx man. I've seen it NOT immobilize a StuH42, a Stug IIIG, and a Tiger I. 3 different types of armor. And you saw it happen to Churchills. Somethings up.

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