Gustav Line Beta AAR Round Two PEANUT GALLERY

[ForwardObserver]

However this one does show a single building accommodating the slope:

http://www.italianhousesforsale.com/comor/images/listing_photos/414_1casa640x480.jpg

That strikes me as being a village on top of a hard rock soil, the typical thing in rugged mountain area.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=old+italian+houses&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=old+italian+houses&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk=#view=detail&id=CCAEF28AFEA31406EA460310623D3412A533D180&selectedIndex=131

And that is quite a find.

What I have in mind about the Liri Valley - judging from the pictures - is something more like my father's hometown. For instance

you can see that at least in that part of Spain, slopes are clearly negotiated by embankments and terraces. The town itself was founded in the X century, but the settlement itself dates back to the Bronze Age. Another look of the same place, here with the terrace olive tree orchards overlooking a river valley

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=863&with_photo_id=44818780&order=date_desc&user=1747524

Those olive trees are about 500 year old. And here another look, this time from an old fortified position of the Spanish Civil War

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=1759&with_photo_id=65760041&order=date_desc&user=456238

Those terraced fields you can see in the background have been there for a long time.

Note I said "tend to level". Where that's not possible or you can go without doing it, you don't need to bother, using excavators or dozens of peasants with picks and shovels.

[Michael Emrys]

One thing I notice in the wartime pics of the area is that such fields as exist per se are laid out in much the manner of the bocage country that we find in Normandy. They appear to be a trifle larger, but still have some kind of windrows separating them. No way to tell from those photos how much of an obstacle such a windrow would constitute, but it needs to be investigated and certainly taken into account in designing maps to be played on.

Michael

[JonS]

it needs to be investigated and certainly taken into account in designing maps to be played on.

um ... why?

If you feel that it needs to be, then by all means crack on and dazzle us with your creations. But as for what other map designers "need" to do? Well, I think they "need" to do whatever they feel is important and worthwhile for the maps they're creating.

[Michael Emrys]

um ... why?

If you feel that it should be, then by all means crack on and dazzle us with your maps. But as for what other map designers "need" to do? Well, I think they "need" to do whatever they feel is important and worthwhile for the maps they're creating.

Sorry, you're right and I should have qualified my statement to the effect that it was meant to apply to those maps intended to have the maximum historical validity. The map that Bil designed and is being played on in the DAR is lovely and perfectly suited for interesting play. Happy now?

Michael

[JonS]

you're right

Hmm. Sig material, right there.

[dieseltaylor]

That strikes me as being a village on top of a hard rock soil, the typical thing in rugged mountain area.

It seems that rock type may allow for better foorings that mean levelling is not necessary. I owned a 1908 house where the back half of the house had a cellar but the front not as it was built on sloping ground.

The underlying rock was Kentish ragstone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentish_Ragstone

[newlife]

Bil just posted in his side that he still needs to fix parts of the map, including Terraces, some foliage, and some hills. Pretty much all the things people have pointed out. Good job Bil. OR STOP READING THE PEANUT GALLERY thread! I'll assume the first alternative.

[c3k]

Yes, all this landscaping is great... BUT - will Bil enter into GaJ's kill zone, or not? He's almost there. His spidey-sense is tingling...

[MikeyD]

I've lost track, does Bil know about GaJ's M16 'meatchopper'? I'd imagine the first time it makes an appearance its going to put the fear of God in him (Assuming he doesn't hole it first round with his Elephant ). One M16 blast against infantry or light armor and you're likely to see Bil maneuvering his heavier stuff to deal with it - which might draw him into a kill zone.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I've lost track, does Bil know about GaJ's M16 'meatchopper'?

IIRC they agreed before the game started that GaJ would buy one to show off, same as Bil's Elephant.

[womble]

Yes, all this landscaping is great... BUT - will Bil enter into GaJ's kill zone, or not? He's almost there. His spidey-sense is tingling...

I winced when I saw GaJ is considering putting his "Tame" (that still cracks me up... easily tickled, me...) M10 back where Bil's maneuvering his heavies to cover... Hopefully his new position turns out to have adequate sight lines without being as exposed.

[c3k]

It'd be interesting to see GaJ open up with that quad .50. (In CMSF, the quad 23mm Shilka is a BEAST. Tanks get their systems shredded by that thing. Optics, radios, etc., get ripped apart. In a good way. Not to mention what happens to poor infantry that get caught by it.) I wonder if the quad .50 can do similar anti-armor work?

[womble]

I reckon it'd make iron filings out of the 250/10. And it'll sure sandblast off any protruding features from heavier armour, but I don't consider that sort of damage to be very impairing in the CMFI environment: optics might help if the ranges were longer; radios aren't exactly vital to the function of armour that can receive player-C2; smoke dischargers might make a difference, sometimes, but this isn't one of those times: Bil is the moving hunter, using smoke at a distance, rather than the trapper, using smoke on his own location to get away.

[A Canadian Cat]

I've lost track, does Bil know about GaJ's M16 'meatchopper'?

Yes, he does. Remember when GAJ KO'ed two HTs with one AT gun round Bill thought it was a burst from the M16.

[c3k]

Hmm, does the game model incoming rounds coming INTO an open breech? What if the Brummbar opens its breech just as GaJ is hosing it down with .50? Could an impacting .50, other than ricocheting around the inside, impact the big ol' shell and set it off? Wouldn't that be cool...

[Hister]

c3k: you are also go-going for GaJ - cool!

[newlife]

Ouch, another ATG is sighted by Bil before it fires. Or is this the one that was firing on the Elephant and lost its bonus concealment?

[Blackcat]

Looking at Big Bill's last post, an infantry unit spotting an ATG in a defensive position (and so presumably cammed-up) in close country that has neither moved not fired at a distance of around 600 yards. Hmmm?

From CM1 we have lost the "yellow wheel of death" that followed an ATG firing, however we seem to have replaced it with the neon sign of "drop your mortars here", before the gun can get a shot off. I am not sure that we have an improvement.

[Rocky Balboa]

GAJ's last post indicates that he has a pretty good assessment of Bills force. This IMO gives GAJ a slight edge because Bill still doesn't have a complete picture of GAJ's force. Granted Bill has done amazing job of identifying his ATG's, and M10's but he still doesn't have a fix on GAJ Rangers. GAJ also seems to be concerned that Bill has a full PzIV plt in support but I think this favors GAJ and his defense of the final objectives in the town.

IMO Bill is too light on infantry which he will need in his final assault on the town. I think Bill realizes this as well because he is being very cautious with what he has. If GAJ can successfully weaken Bills infantry then the additional tanks in support will do Bill little good in the end stages of the battle. Bill dodged a huge bullet when the 2 HT's that were hit where not loaded. Had they been full of Infantry Bill could have lost the battle right there.

Keep in mind that infantry are very brittle and all GAJ needs to do is inflict enough casualties to break their will to fight. If they arrive at the final objective with low morale then GAJ's Ranger's may be able to win the day.

[Michael Emrys]

IMO Bill is too light on infantry which he will need in his final assault on the town. I think Bill realizes this as well because he is being very cautious with what he has. If GAJ can successfully weaken Bills infantry then the additional tanks in support will do Bill little good in the end stages of the battle. Bill dodged a huge bullet when the 2 HT's that were hit where not loaded. Had they been full of Infantry Bill could have lost the battle right there.

Keep in mind that infantry are very brittle and all GAJ needs to do is inflict enough casualties to break their will to fight. If they arrive at the final objective with low morale then GAJ's Ranger's may be able to win the day.

Good point. I posted way upstream the thought that both forces seemed pretty skimpy given the size of the map and the number of objectives. My guess is that both sides really need about another company of infantry plus maybe an extra platoon of AFVs. I think Bil especially needs the extra infantry and GaJ the extra AFVs, but they both could use some beefing up.

One possibly positive consequence of keeping the two sides a bit light on the ground however is that it serves to make the situation more fluid. Not necessarily a bad thing in a game that is progressing somewhat slowly anyway. With more forces available, we might have seen more bloodshed earlier if recon and counter-recon had been pursued more aggressively, or the Tits defended more determinedly.

Michael

[slysniper]

GAJ's last post indicates that he has a pretty good assessment of Bills force. This IMO gives GAJ a slight edge because Bill still doesn't have a complete picture of GAJ's force. Granted Bill has done amazing job of identifying his ATG's, and M10's but he still doesn't have a fix on GAJ Rangers. GAJ also seems to be concerned that Bill has a full PzIV plt in support but I think this favors GAJ and his defense of the final objectives in the town.

IMO Bill is too light on infantry which he will need in his final assault on the town. I think Bill realizes this as well because he is being very cautious with what he has. If GAJ can successfully weaken Bills infantry then the additional tanks in support will do Bill little good in the end stages of the battle. Bill dodged a huge bullet when the 2 HT's that were hit where not loaded. Had they been full of Infantry Bill could have lost the battle right there.

Keep in mind that infantry are very brittle and all GAJ needs to do is inflict enough casualties to break their will to fight. If they arrive at the final objective with low morale then GAJ's Ranger's may be able to win the day.

For once, maybe Bil did not make the best purchase decisions. But we will see as the battle unfolds. Normally win the armor battle , win the game. Bil's lack of infantry will be interesting as the game unfolds.

He also is not using the practice of 2/3rds up front and 1/3rd in reserve.

It is always good to have planned for the infantry you want to fight with for the opening stages of the battle and to keep a third back that you can then use in the closing battle to make the final push and mop up. They will be fresh, have ammo and good morale and be the forces to break the remainder or ther enemies spirit. So lets see if he manages to keep some of his units in that shape or if he will have committed them all before hand before reacking the end game.

[Blackcat]

I am not sure what he has done wrong, and I am certainly not saying I could have done better, but it strikes me that GaJ is stuffed. He might get a technical win if Big Bill runs out of time but combat wise he looks fecked.

[womble]

One thing that's confusing me is the difficulty GaJ is having spotting Bil's troops, versus the ease with which Bil is spotting GaJ's units. Bil certainly has a concrete appreciation of where crest lines are, but his infantry, and even his halftracks sometimes seem to be ghosts, whereas anything GaJ moves (and some things he doesn't) seems to stand out like a sore thumb and attract grievous fire. And that's when the units are in what appears to be comparable concealment. Is Bill just a master at finding defilade where others don't see the possibility?

I have to say, I wouldn't be looking forward to defending on that map; I can't, from the descriptions and pictures given, see how you'd stop the attacker getting eyes on your reverse slopes, and forward slopes are just cannon fodder. It's a QB, so maybe taking copious, effective smoke delivery systems would work: force flanking scouts to come into a kill zone to see what's behind the hill crest. Expensive though.

[c3k]

One thing that's confusing me is the difficulty GaJ is having spotting Bil's troops, versus the ease with which Bil is spotting GaJ's units. Bil certainly has a concrete appreciation of where crest lines are, but his infantry, and even his halftracks sometimes seem to be ghosts, whereas anything GaJ moves (and some things he doesn't) seems to stand out like a sore thumb and attract grievous fire. And that's when the units are in what appears to be comparable concealment. Is Bill just a master at finding defilade where others don't see the possibility?

Without defending or attacking the spotting model, a few quick thoughts: Bil has German optics. That doesn't mean much, but what may mean something is how MANY of them he has. Does he have more eyeballs on the space he's interested in than GaJ has staring back? If GaJ is spread out, then maybe only one team is looking across all the terrain that Bil is in. Bil's units are concentrated (putatively) and he may have 6 teams all looking towards GaJ's one team's location. The number of eyeballs REALLY matters for spotting.

This in no way excuses some of the spotting "issues" we've seen. E.g., finding the bunker so quickly (you can argue that one from either side), or the ATG spotting (again, possible to argue that from both sides).

But, yeah, it does seem like GaJ is fighting blind.

[Wodin]

@slysniper Bil has a platoon of Inf in reserve all mounted on trucks..