ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[Michael Emrys]

Until the ambushing troops open fire themselves the arc order remains good. And once triggered the ambushing troops know they are rumbled and open fire on anything they think fit until a further order is made.

That might be worth thinking about.

Michael

[GreenAsJade]

Just to be clear: DT's proposal is what I also said...

GaJ

[eniced73]

Just to be clear: DT's proposal is what I also said...

GaJ

It only makes sense to do this. I just set up a simple test with a Sherman and Panzer facing off head to head with short covered armor arcs. I had the Sherman move into the Panzers arc but the Panzer was not within his. It worked as programed with the Panzer reacting and engaging the Sherman. It pumped two shells into the Sherman which became rattled and reversed out of the danger. At this point the AI negated the Sherman's armor arc. Within three seconds the Sherman reversed cleanly out of the Panzers arc and stopped. The Panzer sat motionless for a couple seconds and would not fire because of his arc giving the Sherman the time to rally back from his rattled status. The Sherman at this point was out of harms way (even though clearly in view of the Panzer) and without an armor arc (cancelled by the AI) to prevent him from firing. He pumps a single round into the Panzer and knocks it out. So setting wide arcs will work but remember if a threat reverses out of your arc but still in plain view that puts you at the disadvantage.

[sburke]

Yeah, I acknowledge it's hard

I guess I better use wider arc, but IIRC the reason I started narrowing them down is unfortunate cases where some unexpected enemy appearance spoiled an ambush.

GaJ

and of course you are fighting Murphy's law. Whatever the command will allow will be exactly the behavior you don't want. Doesn't matter what you choose. LOL

Surrender you will be humiliated by the AI... and then assimilated.

[sburke]

It is not that complicated to program in some self-preservation behaviour according to some set of criteria. Though that criteria will never please everyone, I'd have thought taking casualties from a spotted enemy at about 50m would trigger some sort of response and exempt the arc. In fact, from memory that is supposed to be in the game now, so this very well could be an actual bug.

Which was GaJ's point I think.

Yet everyone jumps in and tells him he's doing it wrong. You guys are bananas sometimes.

Yes we are and not just sometimes. Yourself included. You just told everyone they are nuts about correcting his behavior when you just said you aren't even sure what the behavior should be.

Welcome to the banana tree. Beware, the refresh monkeys are out to get us.

[JonS]

It only makes sense to do this. ... but remember if a threat reverses out of your arc but still in plain view that puts you at the disadvantage.

Is there some widespread and odd belief that every unit should always have a covered arc? It is my understanding that that really isn't what they were intended for. Use a covered arc when you want to restrict a unit's engagement to the area indicated. If you actually want your units to engage in a wider/larger area, then use a wider/larger arc, or no arc at all. But setting a tightly restrictive arc then complaining because your units won't engage anything outside the tightly restrictive arc seems ... perverse

The game can't see inside your head. It just tries to do what you tell it. If it isn't doing what you want, maybe it's because what you are telling it to do differs from what you actually want it to do.

[eniced73]

No shat! I think everyone here knows what the programs intended use for covered arcs are. Did someone state that every unit should have an arc?

The idea being discussed was that a unit with an arc should be focusing on that area to engage enemy units (which the system does to a T) unless an imminent danger exposes itself. At which time the arc should be dropped to allow that unit to engage as normal.

The system does this now if your units status changes. At which time it negates the arc and goes into survive mode by retreating or engaging units in view. All we are saying is that this happen for the unit on the other end of the stick.

So no one is asking the game to do something and then complaining that it should have done something else. Get on topic.

[GreenAsJade]

Since this is my thread, I can define the terms of discussion :) The idea that every unit should have a covered arc is not one of them.

The specific thing that I complain about often is that when you _do_ need a covered arc - to create an ambush for example - then often _I_ experience the problem I had in the last turn: that something happens just outside the arc that certainly the arc'ed troop should respond to after the trap is sprung.

This one was a little unusual - the ambushee moved sideways out of the arc. More often, they move backwards out, then rally, or an overwatching unit outside the arc starts firing on the ambushers... which they fail to respond to.

GaJ

[JonS]

asking the game to do something and then complaining that it should have done something else.

It seems to me that this is exactly what people are complaining about (see, for example, GaJs post immediately above this one).

[eniced73]

It seems to me that this is exactly what people are complaining about (see, for example, GaJs post immediately above this one).

Wrong. Reread the whole shebang again. I am simply stating that GAJ and others have a valid point on the whole arc thing. Some of you guys go on and on about things that just do not pertain to what is being discussed. Hell half of those people do not even play the freakin game. Go fire up CMAK and set yourself up a neat little covered arc scenario and see how the units respond. The same as CM2? Nope. They respond somewhat how they should.

[eniced73]

Since this is my thread, I can define the terms of discussion :) The idea that every unit should have a covered arc is not one of them.

The specific thing that I complain about often is that when you _do_ need a covered arc - to create an ambush for example - then often _I_ experience the problem I had in the last turn: that something happens just outside the arc that certainly the arc'ed troop should respond to after the trap is sprung.

This one was a little unusual - the ambushee moved sideways out of the arc. More often, they move backwards out, then rally, or an overwatching unit outside the arc starts firing on the ambushers... which they fail to respond to.

GaJ

Apologies GAJ. I enjoy reading your AAR here and feel ashamed I got involved in derailing it. Next AAR should be restricted to the publisher only. I hate wading through pages to get to the next action sequence. Good to discuss points of the game but perhaps we should keep it in other threads.

[sburke]

I hate wading through pages to get to the next action sequence. Good to discuss points of the game but perhaps we should keep it in other threads.

+1

Our last screenshot was page 66... go shoot something!!! Yeah I know, that's what got us into this mess. Still it was good seeing that track get knocked out.

[GreenAsJade]

It'd be a shame to restrict the AAR to the combatants only, because it's fun to get responses here. I guess we just need to curtail wideranging discussions I did trigger this one off though, by bitching and moaning, so it's all my fault

GaJ

[hoolaman]

Yes we are and not just sometimes. Yourself included. You just told everyone they are nuts about correcting his behavior when you just said you aren't even sure what the behavior should be.

Welcome to the banana tree. Beware, the refresh monkeys are out to get us.

Perhaps I didn't phrase it very well, but I was responding to the guys saying it is impossible to program the game to have a unit ignore the arc and defend itself.

It's not impossible, only having it work perfectly every time is impossible.

GaJ's incidient lies so far on the "defend yourself you idiots" end of the spectrum that it shows that behaviour that I understand is supposed to be in the game, is actually not in the game. Which could be a bug. Maybe. I haven't been involved in beta testing in a while.

[dieseltaylor]

Thanks for the good replies on troops firing outside of arc constraints. Thats a plus from the thread as it means within the current game engine there may be troops who will only hold an arc until provoked. Ditto ATG's can be positioned to survive, and that no bonus for them occurs in terms of concealment from initial placement.

The point made by enecid73 is well made regarding distance outside of the quadrant. And it does prove that Vinnarts solution is only one of bearing but does not cover a retreat movement.

sburke- " No one else at the moment has LOS on me nor do they know where the shot came from."

Is that not an assumption that your troops cannot make? You then argue that within the remainder of the 60 seconds both infantry and a tank appear and your troops react. Seems entirely logical that they should believe that these units do know where they are.

Thinking a tad more it seems that perhaps some fuzzy logic could be considered. Such as arc triggered and immediately expands to encompass a further 10% or minimum 50metres. Just thinking this might cover the eventualities of retreating or moving outside quadrant. However the simplistic once activated arc cancelled seems easier to code but does mean you lose type of arc.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Ditto ATG's can be positioned to survive, and that no bonus for them occurs in terms of concealment from initial placement.

Not true, according to the manual.

[GreenAsJade]

Movie 42, 0:29-0:28

The attack on my left seems slow coming. Spotting rounds fell again towards the centre of The Spur, but sound contacts remain out wide left, not progressing. I wish I could put more eyes out left and long, but I'm pretty much through scouting units now. The mortar bearers that were wide and long left are heading back towards Hill 153, to look from there.

Elsewhere, I'm falling back, looking to make a position behind Tame, and in the centre left.

GaJ

[sburke]

sburke- " No one else at the moment has LOS on me nor do they know where the shot came from."

Is that not an assumption that your troops cannot make? You then argue that within the remainder of the 60 seconds both infantry and a tank appear and your troops react. Seems entirely logical that they should believe that these units do know where they are.

Thinking a tad more it seems that perhaps some fuzzy logic could be considered. Such as arc triggered and immediately expands to encompass a further 10% or minimum 50metres. Just thinking this might cover the eventualities of retreating or moving outside quadrant. However the simplistic once activated arc cancelled seems easier to code but does mean you lose type of arc.

My troops don't argue with me. They know that leads directly to minefield detection duty.

My point was simply to show in a given set of circumstances you can have wildly different possible desired outcomes. They can't both be true and there is no "one size fits all". The search for that is a slippery slope of increasingly complex TAC AI routines to take into account a wide variety of possible situations and reactions.

Unfortunately I think this is part of the nature of WeGo. For 60 seconds you have to let go and hope your orders did not create a condition which is counter to the continued survivability of your pixeltruppen. All these requests to me fall under the category of "how will my pixeltruppen bail me out of this".

Now assuming for the moment that Charles came up with something that greatly expanded his ability to program that logic with little or no effort, yeah I'd want it tomorrow, maybe even today! Given that this is highly unlikely I just play within the constraints and trust to BF that if and when they find the time to work on more complicated TAC AI routines, they will.

Oh and GaJ, I wouldn't use terms like "falling back" around Ken. I'd suggest "attacking towards my center left and moving into an assault position behind Tame". And then hope like hell he doesn't look at the map.

[Vinnart]

Until the ambushing troops open fire themselves the arc order remains good. And once triggered the ambushing troops know they are rumbled and open fire on anything they think fit until a further order is made.

[c3k]

Oh and GaJ, I wouldn't use terms like "falling back" around Ken. I'd suggest "attacking towards my center left and moving into an assault position behind Tame". And then hope like hell he doesn't look at the map.

Oh, I've noticed. Yes, I've noticed. GaJ, you are breeding an air of defeat in your troops! How can ANY of them be expected to fight when all they've done thus far is run away and die? Dammit, man, some of your men are begging to be given the opportunity to prove themselves! It's your burden to create those opportunities!

So far your men have stayed and hid...and died. They've run away and died. They've crept about like thieves and died. Now you want them to retreat? What do you think will happen??? Yes, they will die. Dammit, let them at least trade their miserable pixel-lives for glory!! Aye, mayhap even motivate others by their example. Ask for volunteers. You need to find Bil's top commander and kill him in close combat. Counting coup, as it were...

CRUSH him!!! Suck him into a kill sack and be merciless! His other forces will wonder what happened to those who disappeared and died. They will be filled with trepidation and fear! Battle is a contest of WILL!!! Now gather up your men, level off your ammo loads, look 'em straight in the eye and tell those poor bastards to get going over the bleeding hill and at least die while they're FIGHTING!!!!

They'll thank you, later.

Grrr..... friggin' manueverists... "oh, I'm saving my men for the NEXT battle"..."but what about losses?"... girlie men... REAL men back in the good ol' days... mmmphh...mumble...

Ken

[A Canadian Cat]

I say again use 180 degree arcs. It is as simple as that. If GaJ had made it 180 degree the problem would not have occurred.

First let me say that I do 180 and 360 covered arcs a lot to mitigate this. It helps but it does *not* solve the problem. In this, case the escaping crew causing problems would have been inside a 180 or 360 arch but if they ran at a slightly different angle they would have ended up outside even a 360 and still been a problem for the ambushing team.

[A Canadian Cat]

Because that isn't how firing arcs work and it very well maybe you do not want it to. For example. I have a target armor arc. A tank wanders into my zone. I fire. I kill tank. No one else at the moment has LOS on me nor do they know where the shot came from. Do I want my unit to stop using the arc or not? Supposing another tank is approaching and there is also some infantry. Wouldn't it be great if I could have that arc stay in place and bag another tank. Nope sorry, you asked that the arcs drop so no I am going to fire at the infantry first.

Good example - cause I would probably want the arc to stay. Make them mind reading arcs and all would be well. Or not - I suspect that reading some of our minds would *not* be a good idea

The problem is in this case what GAJ really wanted to say was hold your fire until someone gets in range and then "weapons free" but the command system will not let hims say that. Frankly it is what I would want for an ambush - even in the case above (if you fire your weapon you should not be assuming that you remain hidden). However you are quite right there are circumstances where I would want the arc to be respected - period.

Sometimes you just have to accept that the game has a set of rules and play by those rules.

Very true. However we should think about enriching the commands or behaviour.

In this case I would propose an ambush arc. The current cover and covered armour arcs would remain as is - absolute. The ambush arc would mean once and enemy enters the arc open fire and forget the arc.

Of course then we would want an ambush armour arc and ... oh crap there are to many commands for expedience users to deal with let along new comers.

[Michael Emrys]

For 60 seconds you have to let go and hope your orders did not create a condition which is counter to the continued survivability of your pixeltruppen.

Gee, sort of like the kind of thing real life commander have to face, except for them the delay before they can intervene in the situation to issue new orders is likely to be a lot longer than 60 seconds.

I guess maybe we don't want too much realism after all.

Michael

[GreenAsJade]

Oh, I've noticed. Yes, I've noticed. GaJ, you are breeding an air of defeat in your troops! How can ANY of them be expected to fight when all they've done thus far is run away and die? Dammit, man, some of your men are begging to be given the opportunity to prove themselves! It's your burden to create those opportunities!

So far your men have stayed and hid...and died. They've run away and died. They've crept about like thieves and died. Now you want them to retreat? What do you think will happen???

Excuuuuuse me... the times that my men die is when they hear your voice wafting across the battlefield and get all over excited and follow it's commands! There I was yelling "no, no, no, come back" as that M10 rushed forwards, goaded by your foghorn like voice, to try to ping those PzIVhs... to the inevitable outcome.

As to creeping around like thieves: I haven't been doing any creeping at all... that's Bil's job. My guys sit still like snakes and get spotted, while his guys creep like thieves then call in cowardly HE to dispatch me...

GaJ

[sburke]

Gee, sort of like the kind of thing real life commander have to face, except for them the delay before they can intervene in the situation to issue new orders is likely to be a lot longer than 60 seconds.

I guess maybe we don't want too much realism after all.

Michael

In all fairness in RL those same guys might have decided, "he's friggin crazy. We'll tell him we did it later, let's go drink that beer we found."

Wouldn't that be an interesting feature. You set your commands and watch the turn and then spot a team sitting behind a hedgerow not doing what they are supposed to be doing and the state in the UI says "Ignoring".