ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[GreenAsJade]

Meanwhile, on the left, it's clear that Bil is winding up a punch, likely on the far left.

Spotting rounds fell on The Spur, and noises continue on the left end of the Spur. (Incidentally, also, mortar rounds fell in the area my M10 just vacated, indicating that Bil has on-map arty that can see there, either from across the valley, or back at the Tits)

I'm marshalling my forces a little further back from the reverse of The Spur, where hopefully a pre-planned barrage won't hit them, and the overwatching bunkers have more chance of helping..

GaJ

[c3k]

Release the Kraken!

[Vinnart]

Release the Kraken!

. I have the original movie poster showing it framed in my house.

[Vinnart]

GaJ, when it comes to arcs try thinking more in terms of using 180 degree (360 degree direction of approach is not certain). Setting it as wide as possible usually avoids the problem you encountered by setting it smaller than that. Wider is better.

[Michael Emrys]

But then, I ran into one of the real beefs that I have with CMx2 at the moment: covered arc mechanics:

This guy lept out of the HT, escaped the first round of fire (unlike his buddy nearby) ... and run out of the covered arc. What do my guys do? Ignore him!

It's nuts. Covered arcs are for setting ambushes, but once units come under fire, it's crazy that they continue to honour the arc.

Welcome to the near-impossibility of getting a computer to behave like a human in all situations. I don't know what to tell you, GaJ. I know how frustrating it can be to try to get your p-troops to do what you would have them do, or even sometimes as here to do what they would normally do in Reality. One more example of just how complicated Reality can be.

In this case though, your troops did precisely what you ordered them to do. You just didn't anticipate in your orders everything that they might have to do. At the moment, there is no way to order them to ignore the CA after certain things have occurred. You are stuck with the CA until the end of the turn when you can give them a new set of orders.

Michael

[dieseltaylor]

Unfortunately a game mechanic "trick" which GAJ has not implemented. An expectation that the game AI will have some commonsense reactions proves false.

I was aware of it but I am now mulling what happens if the German was in the arc quadrant but 10 metres outside the limit. I assume that they would not shoot at him either so drawing a circle is not much help then. Anyone know?

[Michael Emrys]

Unfortunately a game mechanic "trick" which GAJ has not implemented. An expectation that the game AI will have some commonsense reactions proves false.

I was aware of it but I am now mulling what happens if the German was in the arc quadrant but 10 metres outside the limit. I assume that they would not shoot at him either so drawing a circle is not much help then. Anyone know?

I always draw my CAs a little broader and longer than I think I will need just for this reason. And I still miss once in a while. Tough cookies. Such is war.

Michael

[dieseltaylor]

ME. Surely GAJ suggested the solution - firing action inside arc negates arc order.

Incidentally I know fanatics obey orders to the end but do lesser troops actually decide to react despite orders?

[Michael Emrys]

ME. Surely GAJ suggested the solution - firing action inside arc negates arc order.

But as always, is that something you would want them to do every time? What if there are more lucrative targets still within the CA or about to enter it? I can foresee that your "fix" might send some players up the wall too.

Incidentally I know fanatics obey orders to the end but do lesser troops actually decide to react despite orders?

Good question. Something that could be tested for.

Michael

[Erwin]

Sounds like another good argument for an "Ambush" command that would do what GAJ wants.

[sburke]

I'd love it. I could just area fire any potential ambush locations and voila!, all my opponents well laid target commands would be canceled and his infantry would reveal their positions. What could possibly be wrong with that?

Sounds like another good argument for an "Ambush" command that would do what GAJ wants.

Creating new commands to compensate for not using the existing commands well seems fraught with issues. I expect performance won't change, instead those commands just won't work and then there will be a new set of requests for commands. And as Emrys noted, sometimes even a well laid plans fails.

[dieseltaylor]

Perhaps "firing action within arc" was too pithy and I should have explained further as I foresaw sburke's idea. Until the ambushing troops open fire themselves the arc order remains good. And once triggered the ambushing troops know they are rumbled and open fire on anything they think fit until a further order is made.

Re. testing for troops opening fire outside arcs - I only do armour testing : ). Anyone have actual knowledge of troops firing outside of arc?

[JonS]

Anyone have actual knowledge of troops firing outside of arc?

Perhaps you could try playing the game, instead of quarter-backing from the bleachers?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Anyone have actual knowledge of troops firing outside of arc?

There is a chance that troops under direct fire from a spotted enemy outside a covered arc will disregard the order to return fire. The likelihood is based on the unit's Motivation rating with Fanatics having a 0% chance of doing so then increasing with lower Motivation.

Perhaps you could try playing the game, instead of quarter-backing from the bleachers?

+1. But I suspect this is something many people who do play don't know.

[Erwin]

"There is a chance that troops under direct fire from a spotted enemy outside a covered arc will disregard the order to return fire."

You mean "will disregard the order to HOLD fire"??

Re covered arcs, it would seem logical that if fired on INEFFECTIVELY from outside the arc, then the unit should disregard that fire. However, if the enemy fire is effective ie causing casualties or pinning, then there is little point in holding fire. In this instance the ambush is blown and the unit needs to return fire for survival purposes. (Ideally the endangered unit would bug out, but if you're playing WEGO of course the AI's options are limited for that minute.)

And re an AMBUSH command, currently it seems virtually impossible to create a good ambush if HIDE makes the unit essentially blind and deaf to an enemy unit - esp a vehicle just on the other side of a wall.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Should say "disregard the arc in order to return fire"

[noxnoctum]

Ya a different kind of arc that released the minute a unit was fired upon would be nice. Either that or an arc that releases as soon as the unit issed the arc itself opens fire. Though I think a hunt order ala CMx1 should come first .

The thing is GaJ there are situations where you WOULD want a unit to hold fire even if fired upon. Say for instance if you have a squad or tank or what have you watching a critical area (maybe you're waiting to get a side shot on an enemy column or something) and have separate units assigned to cover other portions of the map. I have been in situations like these many times and when that happens I'm glad that a unit does not get distracted by anything else.

But otherwise... generally wide arcs are better.

Alternatively, what you can do is set a smaller arc that is set at the exact point where you want to commence the ambush, put a timer on it (30 second or whatever you think is necessary), then issue a move order right where you already are and set a much wider covered arc on that move order. That way you can be precise with when you want the ambushers to start shooting, but can also give them a much wider target area half way through the turn (when they presumably have already started shooting... if you anticipated enemy movement correctly)

[GreenAsJade]

Yeah, I know, it's not an easy one... obviously, or they would have fixed it by now.

However, I think that you're missing my point sburke: once the arc is triggered, _then_ it should not longer apply.

This seems obvious to me: once the arc is triggered, the guys have given away their position by firing, so why would they then not fire back on enemy who have spotted them and are shooting at them?

Sure, they should not return fire to area fire on their location ... until they give themselves away by carrying out the ambush they were asked to do...

GaJ

[JonS]

This seems obvious to me: once the arc is triggered, the guys have given away their position by firing, so why would they then not fire back on enemy who have spotted them and are shooting at them?

Because YOU explicitly ordered them to only engage targets in a specific area.

[sburke]

Yeah, I know, it's not an easy one... obviously, or they would have fixed it by now.

However, I think that you're missing my point sburke: once the arc is triggered, _then_ it should not longer apply.

This seems obvious to me: once the arc is triggered, the guys have given away their position by firing, so why would they then not fire back on enemy who have spotted them and are shooting at them?

Sure, they should not return fire to area fire on their location ... until they give themselves away by carrying out the ambush they were asked to do...

GaJ

Because that isn't how firing arcs work and it very well maybe you do not want it to. For example. I have a target armor arc. A tank wanders into my zone. I fire. I kill tank. No one else at the moment has LOS on me nor do they know where the shot came from. Do I want my unit to stop using the arc or not? Supposing another tank is approaching and there is also some infantry. Wouldn't it be great if I could have that arc stay in place and bag another tank. Nope sorry, you asked that the arcs drop so no I am going to fire at the infantry first.

This is what I call reactive requests. I want the game to do the right thing given the circumstances, not what I told it to do. I want it to think for me. Sometimes you just have to accept that the game has a set of rules and play by those rules. You can't re engineer the rules to fit the circumstances of the moment, especially if the next moment you decide you liked it the way it was as you'd have had a better outcome.

[Fenris]

One of the pluses to playing real time, being able to instantly modify orders... IMO of course, I'm a 95% WEGO player. Very frustrating watching your own pixeltruppen die in illogical situations like this. Limitation of computer simulation

-F

[Vinnart]

I say again use 180 degree arcs. It is as simple as that. If GaJ had made it 180 degree the problem would not have occurred. I have never had a problem setting it this wide as it covers your ass much more for things that may pop up out side of it. There is no need for an ambush command just learn how to use the arcs in a better way as I am saying. Use 180 degree arcs. Use 180 degree arcs. Use 180 degree arcs. Do it, and you will eliminate most of the arc problems that can occur. Use 360 in building with entrances on opposite sides. Use 180 degree for all other general applications. Do it not, and contunue to have problems like GaJ just had.

[Fenris]

I say again use 180 degree arcs. It is as simple as that. If GaJ had made it 180 degree the problem would not have occurred. I have never had a problem setting it this wide as it covers your ass much more for things that may pop up out side of it. There is no need for an ambush command just learn how to use the arcs in a better way as I am saying. Use 180 degree arcs. Use 180 degree arcs. Use 180 degree arcs. Do it, and you will eliminate most of the arc problems that can occur. Use 360 in building with entrances on opposite sides. Use 180 degree for all other general applications. Do it not, and contunue to have problems like GaJ just had.

This is what I do also.

-F

[GreenAsJade]

Because that isn't how firing arcs work and it very well maybe you do not want it to. For example. I have a target armor arc. A tank wanders into my zone. I fire. I kill tank. No one else at the moment has LOS on me nor do they know where the shot came from. Do I want my unit to stop using the arc or not? Supposing another tank is approaching and there is also some infantry. Wouldn't it be great if I could have that arc stay in place and bag another tank. Nope sorry, you asked that the arcs drop so no I am going to fire at the infantry first.

.

Yeah, I acknowledge it's hard

I guess I better use wider arc, but IIRC the reason I started narrowing them down is unfortunate cases where some unexpected enemy appearance spoiled an ambush.

GaJ

[hoolaman]

Welcome to the near-impossibility of getting a computer to behave like a human in all situations. I don't know what to tell you, GaJ. I know how frustrating it can be to try to get your p-troops to do what you would have them do, or even sometimes as here to do what they would normally do in Reality. One more example of just how complicated Reality can be.

It is not that complicated to program in some self-preservation behaviour according to some set of criteria. Though that criteria will never please everyone, I'd have thought taking casualties from a spotted enemy at about 50m would trigger some sort of response and exempt the arc. In fact, from memory that is supposed to be in the game now, so this very well could be an actual bug.

Which was GaJ's point I think.

Yet everyone jumps in and tells him he's doing it wrong. You guys are bananas sometimes.