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ALLIED : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant


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I think I'd get a modest amount of infantry, a couple of companies at most, and invest heavily in LOTs of artillery with at least two FOs (in case one gets zapped or can't see a critical part of the map) and a generous helping of registration markers (they are cheap, so you shouldn't scrimp on those). Get a few ATGs if you can find good places to put them. Mine the hell out of the objectives; he might take them, but he'll pay a steep price. And place your infantry one row of buildings back from the objectives. Naturally, you will want to site some MMGs where they can cut down his inf. before they can reach the objs. but save a few to place with your inf. to annihilate any of his inf. that survive the mines in the objs.

Michael

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Whoa - heads up - newsflash!!!

Patton got word of what some middle ranking commander ordered me to do - the defense of Arterna.

"What the **** are you fools doing setting up to defend a fixed fortification like that?" he said.

"If there are Elefants coming, you should get out there and hunt them down, and rip their guts out, not hide away in some hillside resort like a mob of jerry poofters".

Translation: based on Bil and my planning so far, it looks like this map will not be especially entertaining. So we're looking at an alternative, with perhaps not such impressive scenery as this one, but more room for interesting manoeuvre.

GaJ

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OK - so now that you have looked at the today's picture of Arterna, on Google Earth, here's what it looks like in May 1944...

A2V1.png

... as you can see, not nearly as built up as today :)

In fact, this is not really an urban battle, it is defense of a small down in flat country (with lots of defensive overwatch :) )

That is a great choice for a map to play :D. I have wanted to see more of that map from the moment i saw a bit of it in the Gustav Line videos with the AA guns that came online last week or so.

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Translation: based on Bil and my planning so far, it looks like this map will not be especially entertaining. So we're looking at an alternative, with perhaps not such impressive scenery as this one, but more room for interesting manoeuvre.

GaJ

Thank god. I didn't want to sound too negative, but I hated that map and I think it would have been an easy win for the attacker. Especially when the attacker is Bil ;)

It would have been a lot better if the objectives were just moved to the upper city parts. But it still would have been mostly a head-on slog decided by firepower.

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I think I'd get a modest amount of infantry, a couple of companies at most, and invest heavily in LOTs of artillery with at least two FOs (in case one gets zapped or can't see a critical part of the map) and a generous helping of registration markers (they are cheap, so you shouldn't scrimp on those). Get a few ATGs if you can find good places to put them. Mine the hell out of the objectives; he might take them, but he'll pay a steep price. And place your infantry one row of buildings back from the objectives. Naturally, you will want to site some MMGs where they can cut down his inf. before they can reach the objs. but save a few to place with your inf. to annihilate any of his inf. that survive the mines in the objs.

Michael

Before they decided to change the map I was thinking along similar lines except to an even greater extent. I would have purchased a Pak-front -- or whatever the American equivalent is called -- maybe with foxholes. Then I'd have brought a lot of artillery including at least 1 8 inch (203mm) battery for tank busting. I don't think I would have bothered with mines or TRPs since there's really nowhere to put them other than right on the VLs. I may or may not have taken a tank or 2 depending on availability of hull-down positions and lines of sight. I would have gone very light on infantry, maybe one company, or whatever minimum the house rules allow.

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But, but...This map is...MONTE CASINO! ;-)

Thanks for the two AAR. I read allways this forum with interest to learn. I've see the armchair videos to learn tactics in WW2. I read manuals about infantry tactics fighting in Bocage...I known how to move the units in the map, but I feel, I still give "bad" orders to my units...

- Could some one recommend some (free) read :-) about WW2 tactics in Italy?

- Could be possible to do this AAR according to those tactics?

Thanks again and regards!

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Yeah, my thoughts were that the secondary outcropping would be very important to the defense. (To gain the heights over the town, the attacker's right flank would be the key. Up that slope, then across the saddle to the top of the town.)

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So, I think that the new battle ground is chosen. The US forces have rushed to face the Elefant and rip out it's guts, at Santa Maria Infante...

A3V1.png

This looks like a fascinating place to do battle!

Here is the view from Obiettivo Centrale...

A3V2.png

As you can see - a town on a road that leads down a ridgeline towards the enemy, with lightly wooded farmland on the slopes on either side.

Over at Strada di sorveglianza Obiettivo...

A3V3.png

we can see that the trees are very sparse - a good view from here up the left approach, at least as far as the middle of the map, but no-where really good to hide.

Over at Città Obiettivo we see:

A3V4.png

... that there are more trees on the approach ... at the sort of density that will be fickle for cover and concealment, and still not likely to slow tanks at all.

The eagle eye view:

A3V5.png

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VL location uncertainty aside, here are some thoughts.

What I know now about Bil (unless he decides to suddenly change style to throw me off) is that he's going to start with recon across the whole front, and he doesn't have a specific plan of attack... what he does will depend on what he finds.

Seems pretty basic and simple eh? But it makes me think about this: I can control what he finds, so does that mean I can control what he does? And if I can, what would I like it to be?

On the assumption of lots of Tigers, Panthers and an Elefant, I need these things to keep bumping into death-by-surprise. A pitched armour battle doesn't sound like a good idea at all, except if I can get his beasts up close. That will have to be later in the battle, as he's trying to take the VLs.

Earlier in the battle, I need decent concentrations of anti-tank mines, and ways to persuade him to drive over them, plus random surprises from ATGs and Shreks.

I can't see much reason for him to be bringing infantry at all. Maybe he needs a few platoons for recon, and a bunch to take the Central Objective, which is all buildings.

One thing that I'm aware of is that he is going to have a huge force, and I can't rely on him not splitting it. A lot was made, last battle, about "not splitting your force", but actually Bil split his force last game, and also in the first game I played against him. It's quite possible he'll do so again in this battle. It must be tempting to bring a force up each side of the map.

I'm not sure what to make of the central ridge. While in theory you'd think that forces there will be "most exposed", actually the way that the trees come up to the road as it slopes away means that there it's hard to get a look from anywhere on the map to that ridgeline.

Here is what it looks like from the attacker's point of view, after moving along the road past Right Tit:

A3V8.png

... basically, nothing out there can see you, nothing can look down on you.

Moving along, it's not till you get to the Sunken Road intersection that the defender has places that might see you:

A3V9.png

Food for thought. It's my bedtime. I think that at this early stage I'd like to invite all your thoughts and suggestions. As soon as the battle gets going, you're not allowed to make suggestions due to intel leak etc ... but right now I can't see why you shouldn't.

What do you all think?

GaJ

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For this one remember: "He who defends everything, defends nothing."

Yes for sure! All that real-estate between him that the VLs: the purpose of that is purely for traps and slowing him down. He can have it, otherwise.

Similarly, it does seem wise to have a plan to hold 2 out of 3 VLs as "a good outcome" and be ready to surrender one of them. Which one will likely depend on the attack, of course.

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Getting out that Elephant should be done with a combo of anti tank mines (but knowing Bil it's unlikely he would drive that beast on untested trails and thus get it immobilised) and air assets (best bet is on air assets though). Can you get air assets at all?

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Wait till night, then use your FLARES to ignite his fuel tanks! (Oh, never mind.)

Smoke, flanks, mobility. His fight will be standoff. Yours will be the knife.

Place men in spiderholes with naval rounds and hammers. That'll be the key against Elefants. ;)

Any defender incapable of tactical movement is merely a speedbump. If you want to DESTROY his force, it's offense. If you want to DELAY his force, then bodies. A combination may help.

Neuter his long guns by good defense positions. Where you don't have the luxury of reverse-slope, you'll depend on discipline, camouflage, entranchments, and obscurants. The BEST obscurant is to make his lead tank a pyre!

I envy your men: they will have many opportunities to seek glory! Unleash them!

:)

Ken

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I would think about counter-recon, forcing him to use more and valuable assets to achieve his purpose. Don't just deceive, blind him, win the recon battle, which is often least sexy but most important battle, perhaps some AC's to take out his and some jeeps for mobility and modest anti-armour capability. I'd also second the platoon of TD's, to set up rolling ambushes, with info from the screening forces and some P-47's might be nice!

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