AXIS : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[Bil Hardenberger]

This next turn should be an interesting one.. I am gunning for the ATG and at least one M10 plus have a lot of movement going on, including assaulting Hills 153 and 172 so was really looking forward to checking it out this morning.

Of course GaJ has yet to upload the file... and now I'm at work. Damn you GaJ!!

[Hister]

I think the name calling is really unnecessary, can we try to keep it somewhat civil?

GaJ is FAR from stupid. He has a bit to learn, but don't we all. At least he has put himself out there for the world to see and I applaud his efforts.

Bil

Ugh, was meant as a joke but I was in a hurry and didn't manage to make it look like a real joke so sorry for that lads!

[Seedorf81]

Ugh, was meant as a joke but I was in a hurry and didn't manage to make it look like a real joke so sorry for that lads!

You're joking, right?

[Hister]

He he, you are funny Seedorf81!

[Michael Emrys]

...was really looking forward to checking it out this morning.

Of course GaJ has yet to upload the file... and now I'm at work. Damn you GaJ!!

Sounds like Bil is in the grips of bloodlust. Clever of GaJ to keep him on tenterhooks. When all else fails, use psychwar.

Michael

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Fifty First Minute

Well this turn turned out to be anti-climactic... I moved a Pz-IV to the Ridge Road in the hopes of getting a spot on the fleeing M10 which had its turret facing away, and/or the moving ATG.. unfortunately he spotted neither.. then got spooked by some close in infantry fire (there is an enemy HQ team in the building right next to this tank) and backed away. I am moving more assets to this area (including the Elefant) to better deal with any enemy on this side of the Hill 153-Hill 172 ridge.

Bottom image shows the M10 moving into a position on the reverse slope of Hill 172 just waiting for me to pop over the top... but he can't be ready for both my Pioneers and my Pz-IV.. so which way will he turn?

Hill 153 and Hill 172

My Pioneers are starting to clear the Hill 153 objective... meanwhile (bottom image) I have a few infantry contacts on the other side of the hill, one of which was seen unassing the area.

The Brummbar on this side is well on its way to getting to a position on Hill 153 in order to dominate the valley, the approaches to S. Maria Infante, and the town itself. The Jpz will be moving this turn to provide some more AT muscle to this important ridge.

On Hill 172 I spotted this crew lying in wait for my Pioneers climbing the other side. This must be the crew from the M10 killed on the Ridge Road. he was spotted by my Pioneers advancing on the foxholes that held the HMG team (which now look empty)

Finally the left side Brummbar is moving towards Tame to better support that assault and be in position for the assault on S. Maria Infante... which I will start soon.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Fifty Second Minute

This was a good turn for GaJ... good for him.

He boldly rushed a Ranger team out of the woods to close assault my Pz-IV before it could redeploy over the Ridge Road... where was my infantry? Too far away it seems to intervene.

My panzer gunned down both members of the team but not before they managed to immobilize it. An M-kill is as good as a kill in my book.

GaJ's M10, totally unmolested now, drives up to the edge of Hill 172, exchanges fire with the lead squad's the halftrack.. which could only end one way, though it took three rounds.. my halftrack lays smoking on the hill side.

The only good news was that Hill 153 seems to be completely in my hands as the HMG team was seen abandoning its position.. at least two members of that team lie dead in the foxholes. All other teams that were on or near Hill 153 seem to have run off as well.

Until my Jpz and Brummbar can finish redeploying I'm afraid GaJ can cause some trouble with that M10.. though hopefully my Pioneers will have something to say about that if he gets too close.

[John Kettler]

Bil,

Your Panzer IV/Hs look really cool. Always loved that tank!

It appears the Ranger nearer you who M-Killed tank has redefined the "word "close" and appears to have taken out himself and your tank. Normally, this would be MOH worthy, but there appear to be no survivors to attest to his bravery and self-sacrifice. Maybe after the war if the right guys on your side survive?

A 251's armor is entirely overmatched by an M10's gun, but was it three rounds of which one hit, or was it three hits to get the kill? AP or HE? Am trying to determine how smart the AI is when it comes to ammo selection.

In other news, I shall be most interested to see your Brummbar enter action.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Fifty Third Minute

In the center my now immobilized Pz-IV has started to unload on the building that I know housed an HQ team last turn.

Tame

There now only appears to be two units still in tame.. everything else seems to have abandoned the town.. but with GaJ you never know.. he might have laid a few Easter eggs for me to find.

The SPAA was seen on the top edge of the map driving towards S. Maria Infante.. probably to join in on the defenses against my Hill 153-Hill 172 force.

Hill 153-Hill 172

The M10 sat stationary for this turn, while it appears that GaJ is attempting to setup his ATG... that takes three minutes so I should have time to bag it. GaJ has peeked an infantry unit over the top which received some fire from my Pioneer team on the other side and then ducked back down. My teams hopefully are placed so tha the M10 would be in range of my satchels if it peeks over the top...

My right side Brummbar is now moving into position on Hill 153 and the Jpz will be on site next turn.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Fifty Fourth Minute

Hill 172

GaJ sent an infantry team over Hill 172 last turn if you remember.. I'm sure he used the information that team received in order to determine where my Pioneer team was positioned...

He used that information to good effect this turn as he brought his M10 over the top well out of satchel throwing range. He also brought the infantry team back to the ridge.. it cost him at least one member of that team, but his M10 took out three of mine in exchange.

Here's the thing.. Hill 172 is not an objective.. this was always meant as a fishing expedition.. if nothing else it uncovered GaJ's ATG and forced him to deploy his M10 to this area... the M10 bagged a hafltrack and most of a team.. it'll probably kill that team next turn. However the other teams are all well over their own crests and he will have to dig them out.. that and the fact that the Brummbar is now on Hill 153 and the Jpz is now on the reverse slope of the Hill 153-Hill 172 ridge, in addition the Elefant and one of my Pz-IVs will be on or near the Ridge Road next turn.. puts his M10 between a rock and a hard place.

It will probably be safe if it stays where it is.. however if it advances further on the reverse side of Hill 172 he will come under the gun of my Jpz.. if he tries to run back to S. Maria Infante he could run foul of my Brummbar, Elefant, or Pz-IV.

Hill 153

The defenders of Hill 153, the HMG team and a mortar team seem to have regrouped and are attempting to fire on my units on Hill 153 or in the valley. So GaJ has stopped the rout.. good for him. How long they can last is anybody's guess.. the Brummbar is now on Hill 153 and can fire onto those teams if required. But at this point they are gnats on the wall, and I want to start shelling S. Maria Infante or the enemy units in the valley.

The Center

In the center I have spotted a bazooka team trying to sneak up on my immobile Pz-IV... luckily I noticed the contact icon last turn and rushed a few infantry teams forward to protect that tank.

Tame

I am now consolidating the Tame objective.

This turn GaJ unhorsed the bunker and brought the occupants out to attack my forward team in the rear.. unfortunately for him they were gunned down by a halftrack before they could cause any damage. The Bunker was labelled knocked out a few seconds after it was abandoned... which surprised me.. I figured it would be like a dismounted vehicle.

There was an HQ team hiding behind the last building in Tame which took a lot of fire this turn... it was last seen running out of Tame towards the North.

Those should be the last enemy teams in Tame but I have a couple teams walking through every building just to be sure.

Movement Technique

I thought I would show you one of my movement techniques in CM... this sort of movement will help keep your men hard to spot and in return increase the spotting capability of your advancing force. This may be old news to most, but some might find it useful.

Top Image

The team on the left started the turn with a 10 second pause, the team on the right had fast orders to move forward about 50m. This puts the left team in an overwatch situation and allows them to spot while not moving and protect the moving team. I use these short rushes when I do not know exactly where the enemy is, the area is open, and I want to move forward relatively quickly. You can use Hunt as well, if you know the enemy is close or if you are in close terrain (i.e. woods) The key is that the overwatching team must be able to spot forward of the moving team's final position.

Bottom Image

The team on the right has now reached its overwatch position, and the team on the left has started to rush forward. The timing for these moves is something that you need to learn by experience.. ideally the moving team will be getting into position at the exact moment the other team starts its movement, as in this example.

[John Kettler]

Bil,

Your Panzer IV/H's positioning reminds me of when I M-Killed a Tiger crossing the RR embankment in Tiger Valley. With a 40mm! I was happy I'd disabled the TIger, but most unhappy it was on a fairly high perch and could fire into the depths of my position. To include obliterating my Bofors.

And to think I thought bounding overwatch was a Cold War technique. The more reading I do, the more I become convinced it wasn't so. If you read the account I dug up on the U.s. attack on Houffalize, you'll see what I mean. It's over in the Spotting thread dieseltaylor started.

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

Bounding overwatch is such a basic technique, it has probably been in use since cavemen first hunted pterodactyls. Or somesuch. I'll move: you watch.

[Wodin]

John bounding over watch has been used for a very long time..it was also basic tactics in WW1. They didn't all just march in line until they where shot..only happened on the first days of the Somme that sort of thing. Surprised you didn't know it.

[John Kettler]

Wodin,

Was making something of a stir about it simply because the Cold War FMs talked about it as as being something new, so new there were diagrams shown and distinctions made between bounding overwatch (what we do in our games, covered movement from one terrain feature to another) and traveling overwatch (which we don't do, generally, but relies on modern stabilized tank cannon and constantly moving elements of the main force). As can be seen here, what technique is used and when is a function of the likelihood of enemy contact. What's shown here is quite recent, evidenced by the inclusion of the Javelin ATGM in the formation depicted.

https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog/view/100.ATSC/423B3CC4-3606-4E1B-86A6-F37C4BC792C3-1274572553978/3-21.10/chap3.htm

Am well aware of movement by rushes and such (indigenous warriors in a bunch of places), just as I am of the Bloody Somme and the insane bombardment which preceded it. Most of the shells (18-pdr shrapnel) were absolutely useless at the intended purpose: cutting the barbed wire.

As for Somme tactics, these guys didn't get the word. This is deemed to be a very realistic portrayal of French combat experience at the Battle of Somme. "Sobering" doesn't even come close to describing what's seen here.

Meanwhile, Bil's encountering a GreenAsJade with moderately sharp teeth, though the snapping and biting of his force may not last long in the face of Bil's remorseless assembly of combat power to, apparently, blow the opposition apart, and spectacularly at that. Am looking forward to seeing the Brummbar in action. Sort of.

Regards,

John Kettler

John Kettler

[pnzrldr]

Read "Infantry Attacks" by Rommel, if you want to know about some actual maneuver tactics - and bounding overwatch - in the Great War. Superb book on tactics, fascinating history, and an interesting look at a brilliant leader.

[John Kettler]

pnzrldr,

Rommel knew what he was doing and kicked butt in consequence. Additionally, he was operating at the micro scale. Here's an example of the favorable terrain he had--very much not Flanders' fields--and how he used it.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/cdg-37-rommel-in-world-war-i-1917-2.htm

Covered approaches, crack troops and, of course, Rommel! Unfortunately for the men on the Western Front in particular, his was very much the exception, rather than the rule, through much of the war. By and large, the major commanders were clueless idiots who couldn't or wouldn't adapt to the new conditions. And it's not like the handwriting wasn't on the wall, since all the major powers had military observers on the scene in the Russo-Japanese War.

Russo-Japanese War. Wiki agrees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War

"Military and civilian observers from every major power closely followed the course of the war. Most were able to report on events from the perspective of "embedded" positions within the land and naval forces of both Russia and Japan. These military attachés and other observers prepared first-hand accounts of the war and analytical papers. In-depth observer narratives of the war and more narrowly focused professional journal articles were written soon after the war; and these post-war reports conclusively illustrated the battlefield destructiveness of this conflict. This was the first time the tactics of entrenched positions for infantry defended with machine guns and artillery became vitally important, and both were dominant factors in World War I. Though entrenched positions were a significant part of both the Franco-Prussian War and the American Civil War due to the advent of breech loading rifles, the lessons learned regarding high casualty counts were not taken into account in World War I. From a 21st century perspective, it is now apparent that tactical lessons available to observer nations were disregarded in preparations for war in Europe, and during the course of World War I.[34]"

I read Infantry Attacks a long time ago and have retained little, sadly. I imagine, too, it was because I was all about tank warfare then and viewed the other as a kind of sideshow.

Love your sig, but myself am somewhat deficient relative to his list!

It'll be most interesting in this battle to see what happens next. GreenAsJade has shown he can hit, and seems increasingly adept at staying out of trouble, but Bil's closing off maneuver option after maneuver option, hemming GreenAsJade into ever smaller pieces of terrain in which he's safe from fire. Ere long, the outmatched defender is going to be really jammed up, to the point where pretty much every time he appears, he's likely to be looking at a high velocity cannon shell or a thumping big HE shell coming his way.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

"Military and civilian observers from every major power closely followed the course of the war. Most were able to report on events from the perspective of "embedded" positions within the land and naval forces of both Russia and Japan. These military attachés and other observers prepared first-hand accounts of the war and analytical papers. In-depth observer narratives of the war and more narrowly focused professional journal articles were written soon after the war; and these post-war reports conclusively illustrated the battlefield destructiveness of this conflict. This was the first time the tactics of entrenched positions for infantry defended with machine guns and artillery became vitally important, and both were dominant factors in World War I. Though entrenched positions were a significant part of both the Franco-Prussian War and the American Civil War due to the advent of breech loading rifles, the lessons learned regarding high casualty counts were not taken into account in World War I. From a 21st century perspective, it is now apparent that tactical lessons available to observer nations were disregarded in preparations for war in Europe, and during the course of World War I.[34]"

Or to put it another way, the Russo-Japanese experience was ignored because it was Not Invented Here, a military tradition that still continues, sadly.

Michael

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Fifty Fifth Minute

Tame

Most of the action occurred in the Tame-S. Maria Infante area this turn... GaJ started to area fire with his SPAA, all of the fire fell well short, but one of my advancing Pz-IVs got a spot on him and removed him from the game.

However, not long after that same Pz-IV was spotted by what must have been the other M10 and it too was destroyed.

A little analysis shows that the M10 must be located generally near where the SPAA was destroyed...

At this stage of the battle GaJ seems to be confined to three areas, all fairly close the final objective. The tighter the defensive area gets the better his defensive options.. he now has internal lines on which to react... his M10 near S. Maria Infante is in a great position and it is as yet unsighted... his other M10 near Hill 172 is driving deeper around that hill, which suits me fine as it removes it from the objective's defense.

My Pioneer Platoon is maneuvering against the final defenders near Hill 153, the units near Hill 172 are hunkered down and waiting to see what the M10 does.. how deep will GaJ drive that thing? The ATG near Hill 172 appears to be set back up, but its hard to tell for sure.

This is the time I need to slow down.. however time is very short now... but still, I don't need to hurry and get a lot of guys killed for little gain. I would be satisfied actually if the game ended now with GaJ in control of S. Maria Infante... but we continue to push and we'll see if there is enough time left or not.

[Rocky Balboa]

Still following along here ... Bill, hows the moral of your troops holding up at this point? ... Do you have enough VP's to call it a win at this point or if you push to take the final objectives in the town, are your bullet stoppers up to it?

[Bil Hardenberger]

Still following along here ... Bill, hows the moral of your troops holding up at this point? ... Do you have enough VP's to call it a win at this point or if you push to take the final objectives in the town, are your bullet stoppers up to it?

Rocky, I believe my morale is fine over all.. my main concern is will taking the town or at least getting a foot hold in the final objective going to be worth the potential cost?

I think I have more than enough to call this one a win.. I control all but one objective, I control:

--Left Tit

--Right Tit

--S Ridge (both objective locations)

--The Spur

--Hill 153

--Ridge Road

--Tame

GaJ controls:

--S. Maria Infante

Plus I believe I have dealt more punishment than I have received... although, especially in 1st Platoon, infantry casualties have been high.

[John Kettler]

Bil,

Based on AFV,ATG, bunker and infantry kills you've shown on GreenAsJade, and AFV kills, damage and personnel casualties on your end, I don't see how you could possibly be trailing GreenAsJade on the damage issued front, and with all but one VL in your hands, would say you're ahead there, too, though I'd have to go back and check point values for the VLs.

Am sure you're relieved to have the M16 in ruins, especially with your infantry gearing up for the final push, but as a showcased GL weapon, it got to do precious little. Your buttoned Panzer IV seems to spot extremely well, but from what I can see, the M16 was almost dead front, the worst place to be if desirous of not being seen.

Regards,

John Kettler

[General Jack Ripper]

I just read from the beginning of this DAR until now. Everything is great, well written, and that "war movie lighting" mode looks really sweet.

I only have one thing to say at this point, quoting from BoB:

"Hey Bil, don't get hit in the face when GaJ throws in the towel!"

I think the battle has reached the point where any further progress will be paid for in blood.

I look forward to further updates.

[sburke]

I gotta say I am a little concerned by your SIG line SLIM. Are you suggesting that the denizens of the cesspool have managed to breed?

[pnzrldr]

Got any mortar ammo left? This is where he is pinned down to such a discrete location you can effectively shoot w/o spotting. I'm assuming you burned most of it up already though. Bring up the Brummbar and go to work. Those M10s shouldn't like even near misses.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Got any mortar ammo left? This is where he is pinned down to such a discrete location you can effectively shoot w/o spotting. I'm assuming you burned most of it up already though. Bring up the Brummbar and go to work. Those M10s shouldn't like even near misses.

Yep.. I have three tubes still in action... one on Hill 153 is taking the ATG under fire next turn... another on Hill 126 is firing on the suspected M10 location.. and the final one is moving to Tame in a halftrack to help with the assault on the final objective. The rest are out of ammo and are now OPs.

Both Brummbars will be in action next turn.. the Elefant too will be in position on the Ridge Road.