AXIS : Gustav Line BETA AAR Round Two - Eye of the Elefant

[ForwardObserver]

One question about planning & tactics, Bil.

Let me first say that following your AAR is an excellent primer on "how to get things done", and I'm trying to work out the details of the doctrine you're applying to this particular tactical problem. Mediated by the constraints imposed on you by CMx2 interface and model.

I see for instance, that you've basically formed up two main forces: an assault force (your PzGr´s) and a direct fire support force - or fixing force, in US-speak - (the heavy hitting German AFVs). To what extent do you find difficult to apply this quite standard procedure to the characteristics of WW2 German equipment and organization?

On the other hand, I don't see a force with a clear "skirmishing" role. Seems to me that rather than skirmishing - i.e. fixing the enemy by distracting it from your assault and fire support forces - you're more like using a very light "recon screen". If I were you, I'd be also advancing with two platoons up front and one in reserve, while detaching from the forward platoons a squad (or perhaps a half squad) to take the role of skirmishers. My impression is that you didn't do this because you were limited - points-wise - to not have extra half-tracks for the skirmishing element. Am I right?

In any case, excellent AAR Bil. My only wish is that you explained to us more clearly how you have worked out your plan, but I don't want this AAR to become a "job" for you either

[c3k]

I really enjoy how Bil is keeping his support tracks back in support. Good armor, fixed mounting, good optics, all lead to the "proper" use being from afar. Nicely done. However, they DO have treads on them. Treads are there to CRUSH enemy infantry! Roll on!!! Crush your enemy! Drive him before you! And lament something... (Where did my copy of "Conan" get to?)

Ken

[Bil Hardenberger]

One question about planning & tactics, Bil.

First of all you have more than one question in there... one per customer please.

I see for instance, that you've basically formed up two main forces: an assault force (your PzGr´s) and a direct fire support force - or fixing force, in US-speak - (the heavy hitting German AFVs). To what extent do you find difficult to apply this quite standard procedure to the characteristics of WW2 German equipment and organization?

Well I think the German vehicles with their firepower are well suited to this type of use and don't think I especially have much difficulty applying them. I have noticed that area fire seems wildly inaccurate and I prefer to have a clear target to engage.

On the other hand, I don't see a force with a clear "skirmishing" role. Seems to me that rather than skirmishing - i.e. fixing the enemy by distracting it from your assault and fire support forces - you're more like using a very light "recon screen". If I were you, I'd be also advancing with two platoons up front and one in reserve, while detaching from the forward platoons a squad (or perhaps a half squad) to take the role of skirmishers. My impression is that you didn't do this because you were limited - points-wise - to not have extra half-tracks for the skirmishing element. Am I right?

Well I have more forward than you might think... and many of these units, 1st Platoon in particular on the left side of the ridge road, and 3rd Platoon on the right side are meant to catch GaJ's attention and perhaps divert some attention away from my assault element on the S Ridge and perhaps keep him from reorienting. Now the very small teams that I am engaging in front of the assault elements, or as part of them, are indeed meant to scout the terrain ahead and identify any trouble spots.

Note that my assault element on Hill 109 is very small... one split squad, a Platoon HQ and two halftracks... I expect them to uncover the enemy positions, fix them, and then I hope to use my base of fire element to suppress and attrit any identified enemy positions or units. I do not want to risk more than this for this role. Two more mounted squads are in reserve to come in and reinforce or to bypass and penetrate as the situation presents itself.

The Platoon HQ is there to give me the capability to call in indirect fire on particularly important enemy units, like the ATG uncovered last turn.

In any case, excellent AAR Bil. My only wish is that you explained to us more clearly how you have worked out your plan, but I don't want this AAR to become a "job" for you either

I hope the explanation above helps in this regard. I just hope the slow pace of this battle isn't boring you all to death.

[Michael Emrys]

I just hope the slow pace of this battle isn't boring you all to death.

I can't say that I am bothered by it. In fact, the slow, deliberate pace allows time to absorb the more subtle elements that turn a plan into an event, elements that might get overlooked in a faster-paced reconstruction.

Michael

[MikeyD]

the slow pace of this battle...

I suspect a lot of new and prospective players come from the 'run-and-shoot' FPS world. Its good they get an object lesson in thoughtful gameplay. I would'a gone in guns blazing. But I'm a really crappy commander.

[Bil Hardenberger]

I suspect a lot of new and prospective players come from the 'run-and-shoot' FPS world. Its good they get an object lesson in thoughtful gameplay. I would'a gone in guns blazing. But I'm a really crappy commander.

Throw caution to the wind, damn the torpedoes, etc. eh? Hey that's my favorite type of player to go up against.

[Michael Emrys]

Throw caution to the wind, damn the torpedoes, etc. eh? Hey that's my favorite type of player to go up against.

The suicidal type? Yeah, there are few things more satisfying than watching your enemy go charging into the zone of a pre-planned full battalion arty strike that is due to arrive in the next minute.

Michael

[ForwardObserver]

First of all you have more than one question in there... one per customer please.

Fair enough Bil

Well I think the German vehicles with their firepower are well suited to this type of use and don't think I especially have much difficulty applying them. I have noticed that area fire seems wildly inaccurate and I prefer to have a clear target to engage.

That something for thinking. The Germans - with their WW2 theme "of one vehicle for each task" - can be hard to handle. I do think that the StuGs are better "value for money" than the fancy pants SturmPanzer thingies, which are very cool but expensive and kind of one-trick ponies.

Well I have more forward than you might think... and many of these units, 1st Platoon in particular on the left side of the ridge road, and 3rd Platoon on the right side are meant to catch GaJ's attention and perhaps divert some attention away from my assault element on the S Ridge and perhaps keep him from reorienting. Now the very small teams that I am engaging in front of the assault elements, or as part of them, are indeed meant to scout the terrain ahead and identify any trouble spots.

Note that my assault element on Hill 109 is very small... one split squad, a Platoon HQ and two halftracks... I expect them to uncover the enemy positions, fix them, and then I hope to use my base of fire element to suppress and attrit any identified enemy positions or units. I do not want to risk more than this for this role. Two more mounted squads are in reserve to come in and reinforce or to bypass and penetrate as the situation presents itself.

The Platoon HQ is there to give me the capability to call in indirect fire on particularly important enemy units, like the ATG uncovered last turn.

Thank you for the detailed explanation: I missed that from your previous posts. And yes, that's the way to go. I tend to use more specialized troops for that kind of role (i.e. LMG and Scout teams, etc.), because of the greater flexibility and resilience (if the MG man in your squad gets killed, and the squad just has one auto-weapon man, its firepower is very crappy). I don't count on the ability of using buddy aid / weapon recovery much for them, since it's likely I'll have to get them out of dodge, leaving behind the wounded kameraden (and their equipment).

I hope the explanation above helps in this regard. I just hope the slow pace of this battle isn't boring you all to death.

Helps a lot, thank you very much :-)

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Twenty-Fourth Minute

Several interesting developments this turn.. first GaJ moves the Tame M10 back up right next to the bunker. Guess the last position wasn't as good as he thought it was. It doesn't look to me like this TD is spotting anything though and it's looking pretty damned ripe.

My 1st Platoon halftracks come under fire this turn from a mortar sitting in some foxholes near Hill 109. No hits thankfully and the mortar crew was hugging the dirt at the end of the turn as my support units started to spot it and fire back. Next turn hopefully I can kill the damned thing.

There is an unknown enemy infantry unit to the front of 1st Platoon's 1st Squad... note where 3rd Squad is at the top of the image.

This image shows that 3rd Squad has actually progressed past the enemy unit. I will suppress the enemy unit with 1st Squad while one team from 3rd Squad doubles around and takes them from the rear.

[noob]

while one team from 3rd Squad doubles around and takes them from the rear.

Wouldn't it be better if they just shot them ? ;- )

[Wodin]

Wouldn't it be better if they just shot them ? ;- )

Cheeky...taking them fro the rear will be a demoralisation effort on the Germans part..

[noob]

Cheeky

That's rather apt ;- )

[slysniper]

I suspect a lot of new and prospective players come from the 'run-and-shoot' FPS world. Its good they get an object lesson in thoughtful gameplay. I would'a gone in guns blazing. But I'm a really crappy commander.

Bad tactics for most Cm battles, Forces are too close in balence in most situations to think you are doing well by just blazing into a gun fight.

I find the only time I will do an all out assault is when my scouting has proven the enemy is weak and I have a overpowering forces in a certain sector. Then maybe I will do a all out assault in that sector, once through that sector I will send combat patrols aggressively on to continue to take advantage of the break though the enemy line but not risk or over commit my units. With them I can normally find the enemies throat, commit the forces that have broken through and slice his throut with a percision attack on that area. (man I love this game) But sorry,, not often do I see any real Blitzkrieg tactics within the game, seldom it is that I get to even do this.

As one player describe my play, You are like a python that just progresses at a constant pace with constant pressure, not allowing one to excape until you sqeeze the life out of your prey. I always thought that describes the perfect way to play most CM battles. One needs to find and take advantage of areas where they know they have the firepower advantage. Plan and develope your position as fast as you can to not allow the enemy to recover from your advantages, but never rush into errors. Just constantly look for new weaknesses that will reveal themselves because you have the advantage.

It works good for when you are attacking or in meeting engagements. Of couse defence is a whole other concept.

But for CM, Be a Python, not a charging Rhino

[Wodin]

Well there where no Blitzkrieg like attacks in Normandy was there..maybe we will see that working if they do an early war west front or the start of Operation Barbarossa..then again is this really the right scale to see this? If it could be done in future games then the scenario would be over pretty quickly..

Sorry this is off topic.

[Michael Emrys]

Well there where no Blitzkrieg like attacks in Normandy was there..maybe we will see that working if they do an early war west front or the start of Operation Barbarossa..then again is this really the right scale to see this? If it could be done in future games then the scenario would be over pretty quickly..

You can create a blitzkrieg scenario right now in any of the existing WW II CMs simply by giving one side a lot of armor and the other side all infantry with no man-portable AT weapons and almost no ATGs, and what ATGs you allow them are no more than 50 mm. If you also make the infantry green and give them poor morale, you should get fairly close to the conditions prevailing in the most dramatic breakthroughs of the early war. Not much fun to play the defender though, I suppose...

Michael

[Freyberg]

A Breakthrough scenario like that could be fun if you gave the attacker a very limited time to complete their mission - fast & furious and all the defender needs to do is hold on a little while...

[MikeyD]

One thing to remember about 'Blitzkrieg tactics' is during the invasion of France Germany suffered 150,000 casualties and nearly 800 tanks destroyed over the course of little more than month an a half. In other words, the way I usually play the game!

[Bil Hardenberger]

The tactical meaning of blitzkrieg involves a coordinated military effort by tanks, mobilized infantry, artillery and aircraft, to create an overwhelming local superiority in combat power, to overwhelm an enemy and break through its lines.

Using this definition a blitzkrieg type battle could definitely be recreated in CM. I also don't think you need to dumb down the opposition to make it work.

Ensure you have a good mix of tanks, mech. infantry, artillery and aircraft (extra helpings of arty and air would be nice). A good wide map so the enemy does not know where the schwerpunkt will fall. Pre-order the artillery and aircraft arrival at setup and try to coordinate the movement of the ground forces with the lifting of the artillery... try to setup a rolling barrage as best you can in the setup with your artillery... also as the artillery lifts from the point of main effort time additional artillery to be applied to the wings to suppress the enemy on the shoulders of the penetration.

Definitely doable, and could be fun, for the attacker anyway. But really I think the procedure would probably be better represented by a grand tactical or operational game.

[Wodin]

I agree...

The only time I think this could be fun is attacking against a defending AI..

Apart from that yes Grand Tactical or operational are the bets scale to create this sort of attack.

Using this definition a blitzkrieg type battle could definitely be recreated in CM. I also don't think you need to dumb down the opposition to make it work.

Ensure you have a good mix of tanks, mech. infantry, artillery and aircraft (extra helpings of arty and air would be nice). A good wide map so the enemy does not know where the schwerpunkt will fall. Pre-order the artillery and aircraft arrival at setup and try to coordinate the movement of the ground forces with the lifting of the artillery... try to setup a rolling barrage as best you can in the setup with your artillery... also as the artillery lifts from the point of main effort time additional artillery to be applied to the wings to suppress the enemy on the shoulders of the penetration.

Definitely doable, and could be fun, for the attacker anyway. But really I think the procedure would probably be better represented by a grand tactical or operational game.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Notice anything missing from these screenshots?

Note: scroll below the images for the discussion.

I just received permission to show this feature to you guys this morning. I thought while we wait for GaJ to upgrade to the latest build and get a turn back to me this would be good filler.

FOW; now with less data!

Note: in all of these I have the enemy unit selected. Also, this is on Elite level.. Iron gives you less, the other settings a bit more, until on Basic Training mode you get all information.

So no more of me figuring out the enemy OB just from a few HQ unit sightings. I WELCOME the change and am looking forward to the challenge of playing with some proper FOW in the game.

Please discuss.

[Baneman]

...

I just received permission to show this feature to you guys this morning. I thought while we wait for GaJ to upgrade to the latest build and get a turn back to me this would be good filler.

FOW; now with less data!

Note: in all of these I have the enemy unit selected. Also, this is on Elite level.. Iron gives you less, the other settings a bit more, until on Basic Training mode you get all information.

So no more of me figuring out the enemy OB just from a few HQ unit sightings. I WELCOME the change and am looking forward to the challenge of playing with some proper FOW in the game.

Please discuss.

This is EXCELLENT news !! :)

Wonderful, I ( once again ) doff my hat to the programmers.

Took awhile but sooooo welcome. I'm chuffed as chips

Edit: I note that you can still tell it's an 81mm mortar not a 60 - but I'm guessing that changing all the pics would be extra work. But please don't let such a minor cavil lead you to believe I'm anything but overyjoyed to see this improvement.

[Fizou]

Thats great news with the extended FOW

[Freyberg]

That's excellent news. I don't like Iron mode, because the FOW makes it a hassle to select friendly units, but it feels wrong to have so much in the info screen about enemy units.

[newlife]

I love this!

As for Iron, I find it VERY useful as it helps me know what my units "know" about their surroundings. As for finding units, you just deselect the current unit and you see everything. It's a personal thing of course, but I've never seen it as more work.

[kohlenklau]

Bil,

Keep on getting permission to show us more stuff!

Yee-Haw! thanks.

So, all along you have clipped off the blank unit info stuff waiting on "HQ" to give you permission? The "Amarrican Fightin' Man" has always had a deep often hidden disdain for higher HQ which makes him an unpredictable opponent but I then re-realize you are playing as the Germans and thus...

Hey! Try and squeeze on over to the OMG module and see what they gots hidin'!

Discussion...

Personally I loved the FOW from CMAK where you would see a Tiger then it would become something else. Even troops changed uniform as they were better identified.

Especially with green troops doing the observation.

But at least this is a significant restriction of the data which we all could see before.

Like my latest (first ever) PBEM battle, "Oh, HQ of 10 platoon, I guess he has 3 companies of Canadian infantry coming at me..."

Bravo!