Gustav Line QB AAR - Allied

[Bil Hardenberger]

I am suprised that you are going to switch your battle plan so quickly just because of the loss of the one Sherman.

I am one that likes to stick with my concept of my battle plan unless I Hit a wall as to what the enemy is doing and I see it is going to cost me more than what I can take out of the enemy.

Me too usually... but I also refuse to stick with a plan when I see a major change to what I feel the odds of success are.

So to me, what part of the original plan of yours is not working? So you do not have the same advantage you had a moment ago. but you have gained terrain, you have some positional advantages. and if you have disadvantages, then please point them out to me.

Well I do not feel like I have freedom to maneuver on my right... I also do not feel like I can gain a firepower advantage like I was planning.. originally I had a three pronged attack planned, one from the front (holding attack), one from the flank over the hill, and one around the backside of the hill and from the rear... now two of those, the rear and flank have been taken away because of the positions of the panzers.

That was my main reason for switching focus.

But I will be interested in seeing if pulling back and changing the flank you are going to focus on will pay off for you. A plan should allow for flexability as to what you discover about the enemy and to take advantage of it. So if that is where you understand the enemy to be weak and that you have a way to capitalize upon it, then that is a good decision.

Me too... he is only weaker on my left because it doesn't look like he has armor there.. and if he is forced to maneuver his two panzers to my left to counter a stroke, then I can set up PIAT and Sherman ambushes to welcome them... he has the positional advantage on the right, looks like he wants to keep it, so I'm giving it to him and seize it on the left. He also seems concerned with my Sherman on the center ridge-line... hopefully that threat will keep him from doing too much drastic maneuvering with his tanks... if he does.. I can pop that Sherman up for a shoot and scoot mission and try to bag one.

The battlefield is beautifully cut into three zones.. the center zone I think (as I said at the beginning) is the key.. I should have stuck to that from the beginning (instead of getting sucked into a right side attack that was taking way too long to develop)... and fortified the center... because from there I can attack either right or left..as the situation presents itself.

[Bil Hardenberger]

I think Bil spotted just fine (he'd commented he had it spotted for a full 30 seconds), it was the shooting aspect that seemed to go awry. Most of the shooting issues that I have been involved in have usually ended up with a valid reason why return fire wasn't an option. I can't see a good reason here but w/o access to the save it is all conjecture.

Correct... his tank didn't spot mine until there was about 5 seconds left in the turn... my tank was hull down.. my tank was at a higher elevation... they were not expected to be there (i.e. he did not seem to have a covered arc set up on the position I moved into)... my tank had the time to get off three aimed shots before he even spotted me.

Some kind of bug affected my tank... but this is a BETA, so that is known to happen. I just have to make the best of a bad situation and continue.

Steve, I can send you the turn if you want to check it out.

[sburke]

Correct... his tank didn't spot mine until there was about 5 seconds left in the turn... my tank was hull down.. my tank was at a higher elevation... they were not expected to be there (i.e. he did not seem to have a covered arc set up on the position I moved into)... my tank had the time to get off three aimed shots before he even spotted me.

Some kind of bug affected my tank... but this is a BETA, so that is known to happen. I just have to make the best of a bad situation and continue.

Steve, I can send you the turn if you want to check it out.

Sure, I am curious and if I can't find anything obvious I'll pass it up the line. After of course I submit my in depth report to GaJ. Just call me Mata Burkee.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bil, if you will pardon my curiosity, can you tell what the experience level was of the Sherman tank that got aced?

Sorry Michael, I forgot to add.. the Sherman was Veteran.

[Bil Hardenberger]

The Twenty-Fifth Minute

My Sherman in the center spotted and fired on two squads GaJ is reorienting them from my left towards the center.

After the minute was up his two squads seemed in disarray and several casualties were seen.. exact count is not known.

Right at the end of the turn one of those damned light mortars hits one of my forward teams on the back side of this position... one round takes out the entire team. I expect his losses were still higher than mine (or equivalent).. at the very least one of his two squads is probably panicked.

Also noticed was another light mortar team moving back to my left... so he is not abandoning the mountain in order to attack my center.. but intends to defend. I'm sure this team is looking to get a better angle on my HMG.. but I have repositioned that team as it had been there for several turns and I expected it to become a target.

All of this movement makes makes me draw the following conclusions... GaJ is leaving a skeletal force across from my force.. I expect one full squad, at least one MG team, and now the light mortar team referenced above. He is attempting to reorient in order to attack my weak center... my Sherman will have something to say about that and he might be surprised how "weak" the center actually is.

On my right my two platoons have started their movement... my HMG team fired on his 6 Co. HQ unit (no casualties noticed)... and a spotting round hit in the middle of his troops.. I expect that fire mission to hit my HMG on the far right.. I will be packing them up and moving them out of harms way.. I only hope they can un-ass the area before the rounds impact.

[Sublime]

Some kind of bug affected my tank... but this is a BETA, so that is known to happen. I just have to make the best of a bad situation and continue.

Bil,

I dont think this is a bug, or at least bug specific to GL. This happened all the time in CMBN too - I recall the explanation (it occurs frequently in hedgerows) is that since the crew can spot individually, but is counted as an entity, (the tank) sometimes a tank will spot things the gunner can't engage. This is noticeable because the aiming/firing loop the gunner will go into, without actual firing.

Whether this is a bug or not, is yet to be seen. In your case, it seems if anyone could see the enemy it would be gunner - that model sherman DOES NOT have a cupola correct?

[GerryCMBB]

In real life, if it was the commander that saw the PzIV, but the gunner could not, they would soon figure it out and adjust. There is no possibility in the game for the player to do this adjusting. Would be nice if the gunner cannot see something that the game shows this somehow. I think the same can happen with ATGs when someone can see a tank but the gunner cannot.

Gerry

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bil,

I dont think this is a bug, or at least bug specific to GL. This happened all the time in CMBN too - I recall the explanation (it occurs frequently in hedgerows) is that since the crew can spot individually, but is counted as an entity, (the tank) sometimes a tank will spot things the gunner can't engage. This is noticeable because the aiming/firing loop the gunner will go into, without actual firing.

Whether this is a bug or not, is yet to be seen. In your case, it seems if anyone could see the enemy it would be gunner - that model sherman DOES NOT have a cupola correct?

No cupola ... seems fishy to me... the gunner says spotting, aiming-firing ... here are the timestamps for each activity:

--01:07:40 - in position and halted

--01:07:33 - Pz-IVH first spotted

--01:07:33 - Gunner switches from spotting to Aiming

--01:07:28 - Gunner switches to firing

--01:07:26 - Gunner switches to spotting and then immediately to Aiming

--01:07:21 - Gunner switches to firing

--01:07:19 - Gunner switches to spotting and then immediately to Aiming

--01:07:15 - Gunner switches to firing

--01:07:13 - Gunner switches to spotting and then immediately to Aiming

--01:07:09 - Gunner switches to firing

--01:07:06 - Gunner switches to spotting and then immediately to Aiming

--01:07:02 - Gunner switches to firing

From the German tank:

--01:07:06 - Sherman first spotted

--01:07:00 - Pz-IV fires

[Heinrich505]

Bil,

Good Lord man, 30 seconds is just not enough time to correctly brew up a proper pot of tea. War be damned, there are civilized proprieties to be followed. Otherwise things are just beastly, eh wot? Clearly the teapot was hanging off the gunsight and not quite hot enough to remove, thus causing the delay. Simple. No bug, just the amazing reality factored into the CW module...

Ah, but condolences are in order. That was one hell of a shot and you were not blessed with the outcome. We've all been there. I normally scream at the crew to fire, damn you, fire....and then there is fire - from my freaking tank, with the lads leaping out and running, if lucky.

Hang in there. Just a minor setback. c3k is right - CHARGE!!! Cannon to left of them, Cannon to right of them...and all that.

Heinrich505

[slysniper]

In real life, if it was the commander that saw the PzIV, but the gunner could not, they would soon figure it out and adjust. There is no possibility in the game for the player to do this adjusting. Would be nice if the gunner cannot see something that the game shows this somehow. I think the same can happen with ATGs when someone can see a tank but the gunner cannot.

Gerry

actually, why not have the game programmed to move the tank so that the gunner can see what the other crew member sees as a target. Now that would take care of the problem, would it not.

I have found that it is impossible to tell what for sure the tank sees and will fire at, just because it looks clear to me. Some bush or something was likely messing with thre gunners view.

I have found it better to have infantry as my eyes, leave my tank below the crest line I want to use as a hull down position and when I see a juicy target like he just had. roll my tank to a likely view spot but then give it a hunt command and continue moving. At some point the gunner gets a clear view and the tank goes into action. And with how spotting works in the game, the odds are not different enough to matter as to if it was movinhg or not as to spotting. But that could be changing with the adjustments in the latest versions, I just cannot test enough to keep track of it

[Sublime]

Bil, I'm pretty sure if you bring it up someone on the beta team amongst you should remember this. It can be reproduced easily in hedgerows especially using Stugs, which apparently aren't as low as Marders but low enough to cause weird spotting issues.

It is a problem, but I'm not sure exactly how they can fix it by programming the tank to move - I can foresee all kinds of ways this would not be a good move and people would get upset. Such as a tank moving forward into a minefield, into a trap, out of a keyhole position... etc etc. People would scream.

Of course there's always the hopeful possibility this is a bug, not a feature, in which case it can be happily fixed somehow.

[Michael Emrys]

The battlefield is beautifully cut into three zones.. the center zone I think (as I said at the beginning) is the key.. I should have stuck to that from the beginning (instead of getting sucked into a right side attack that was taking way too long to develop)... and fortified the center... because from there I can attack either right or left..as the situation presents itself.

That's how I felt when you embarked on your right side attack. But then, I had access to information that you didn't, so it wouldn't be fair to criticize you on that account.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Sorry Michael, I forgot to add.. the Sherman was Veteran.

Hmmm, the gunner and loader must have nodded off after staying up the night before. Maybe the TC too.

Michael

[Vinnart]

Usually when they cycle aiming, firing, (and not actually firing) that means LOF is blocked even though may look like it shouldn’t be.

I believe the answer is what I said before about the Sherman not firing. The LINE OF FIRE was blocked somehow from my understanding of the physics of the game according to what I recall in the manual, and from experience. Perhaps with the abstraction of the rock terrain it is not as obvious since although it appears flat it has abstracted height. With CMBN it happens most with hedgerows as others have said. It is hard to detect where LOF will be blocked as the line of sight tool can mislead showing a light blue line. Luckily it does not happen frequently. When it does reorienting the tank is all one can do because it will not fire where it is. One can either back up, and move up again at another spot, or move forward a bit to get a clear line of fire.

In this case sometimes lady luck shines on you, and well, other times she gives you swift kick to the balls. Get some ice Bil, you’ll feel better

[MikeyD]

On a Sherman there's five sets of eyes all spotting, only one of them is the gunner. Loader and commander have roof mounted vision devices, depending on the model type, the gunner usually has a coax gunner's sight that's mounted lower. I can't tell from the photos,is that an early or late Sherman? Early Sherman would have a roof mounted gunner's sight but its somewhat inferior optics to the late type.

[Vanir Ausf B]

It has the split hatch for the commander, so probably early.

[MikeyD]

If you look at CMFI Shermans there's an early narrow gun mantlet type and a wide (CMBN-style)gun mantlet type. You'll notice the narrow mantlet has no opening for the gunner's sight. Early Sherman has no coax sight, just the roof periscope which had a nasty habit of jiggling out of alignment with the gun on firing. Which is why they switched. Another problem, that might have something to do with the trouble here is a problem of parallax vision, the roof sight seeing clear of an obstacle while the gun tube isn't. A common problem with Stugs too.

[costard]

Broken gun - stuck pin? Tough way to find out about it.

[Vark]

Commander: 'Gunner target ahead'

Gunner: 'Can't see it, my views blocked'

Commander: 'Driver advance, gunner call out when you see him.

Gunner: Wait... wait, got him!'

Commander: 'Diver halt'

Gunner: 'Firing now'

Shame the engine cannot move tanks forward so gunners can spot targets their commanders can see.

[sburke]

Commander: 'Gunner target ahead'

Gunner: 'Can't see it, my views blocked'

Commander: 'Driver advance, gunner call out when you see him.

Gunner: Wait... wait, got him!'

Commander: 'Diver halt'

Gunner: 'Firing now'

Shame the engine cannot move tanks forward so gunners can spot targets their commanders can see.

Commander: 'Gunner target ahead'

Gunner: 'Can't see it, my views blocked'

Commander: 'Driver advance, gunner call out when you see him.

Gunner: Wait... wait, got him!'

Commander: 'Diver halt'

Gunner: 'Firing now'

Commander:"oh S**t!!! Driver reverse, reverse!!! AN AT Gun is on our fl...."

Tank 3 come in please.. tank 3 what is your situation....

[Vark]

I'm sure a veteran crew were aware of the parallax view problems and would take it into account, when moving into hull down positions hull down. Even if it meant using the open breach to check for no obstructions.

[Vark]

Commander:"oh S**t!!! Driver reverse, reverse!!! AN AT Gun is on our fl...."

Tank 3 come in please.. tank 3 what is your situation....

Highly realistic, I'd say and better than

Commander: 'Gunner target ahead'

Gunner: 'Can't see it, my views blocked'

Commander: 'Driver advance, gunner call out when you see him.

Driver: No can do, we might get hit'

Commander: Driver, for FU**s sake ADVANCE'!

Driver: Nope, if you want the tank move, so as to engage the enemy directly to my front, you'll have to drive it yourself!'

Commander: Please his turrets traversing in our direction!

Gunner: 'Still can't see him, driver please!'

Driver : Nope, too dangero............

Tank 3, I see smoke on the ridge..... Tank 3 come in please..... is the smoke from the target? Over.

[slysniper]

It is a problem, but I'm not sure exactly how they can fix it by programming the tank to move - I can foresee all kinds of ways this would not be a good move and people would get upset. Such as a tank moving forward into a minefield, into a trap, out of a keyhole position... etc etc. People would scream.

Hey, I did not say it was perfect. just that I would prefer that as compared to leaving it as if if I had no other choice. And all your examples would happen if the tank crew did not know about them. Of course if they had them things spotted then that is another story. keep in mind bf is trying to get the AI to react by itself in a realistic manor. And that would mean adjusting position if you see a target that you are capable of killing.

[zukkov]

it's an intangible maybe the gunner was a pacifist..

[Noba]

<snip> Another problem, that might have something to do with the trouble here is a problem of parallax vision, the roof sight seeing clear of an obstacle while the gun tube isn't. <snip>.

But if the gunner was using the periscope he would not be looking out of the gun tube, he would fire and the shot would hit dirt... then he would know. But he did not fire. Does the game "know" the tube can't hit the target in this case? (In the past trees would stop a shot multiple times, but there was LOS and the tac AI would just keep firing).

Noba.