herr_oberst Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 On a map that convoluted, ATG's seem a silly waste of points. No-one in their right minds would setup on top of those barren mounts, and while keyhole opportunities might be good, manhandling into position would likely be a bear, and mobility looks dubious for towing if you need/decide to displace. Seems like mobility is a key to this battle; with 1.5 hours and a variety of positions to overrun/occupy, I'm not sure a relatively static unit works in a cost/benefit analysis. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Still, I'd like to see what a well-sited Panther turret bunker could do here! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 No-one in their right minds would setup on top of those barren mounts I recall one anecdote of commonwealth troops during hard-scrabble mountain battles locating and restoring an old 2 pdr AT gun then dragging it laboriously all the way up a mountain to take part in a battle. German mountain troops retained their obsolete 37m guns. The Italian 65mm was designated a mountain gun! Is the US 75mm pack howitzer 'officially' designated a mountain gun? I can't recall. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 On a map that convoluted, ATG's seem a silly waste of points. No-one in their right minds would setup on top of those barren mounts, and while keyhole opportunities might be good, manhandling into position would likely be a bear, and mobility looks dubious for towing if you need/decide to displace. Seems like mobility is a key to this battle; with 1.5 hours and a variety of positions to overrun/occupy, I'm not sure a relatively static unit works in a cost/benefit analysis. I agree with you.. that would be why I didn't buy any ATGs.. my main combat power is self propelled.. and I have enough transport to shuttle one Platoon at a time to wherever I need/want them. Mobility is key for sure.. but I am also interested in being able to "see" as much of the map as possible... my opening moves will answer this need. I need to discover what my opponent is doing before I commit my forces to any plan. I will be using the tops of at least one of "those barren mounts" in order to do this. Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 The time to take counsel of your fears is before you make an important battle decision. That's the time to listen to every fear you can imagine! When you have collected all the facts and fears and made your decision, turn off all your fears and go ahead! George S. Patton My main goal at the beginning of this battle is to ensure that I have eyes on as much of the enemy territory as possible. To do this I am moving my Sherman Platoon up on my left to Point 523.. which is the highest point on the map and will give me excellent views into GaJ's setup area and onto the tops of most hills and ridges. Most points where I checked LOS find my tanks in hulldown or partial hulldown positions... the example I captured in this image is not however. My Stuarts will be moving to the ridge at the extreme right of the map to get eyes onto the other side of GaJ's rear area. If these tanks can manage to kill something then that's great.. but my main goal is to get an idea how he is maneuvering.. hopefully without losing anything in the process. I've crossed my fingers, given the command to move out and sent the next file to GaJ.. things should move much faster now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Okay, here are my unit purchases. I purposely went without any indirect weapons... I wanted to maximize my direct fire capability as I have a feeling that getting a good indirect spot is going to be a challenge in this game and I really dislike firing blind. Next: My plan of action Yes but what about area denial? You wouldn't need spotters for that. Just use your indirect fire during setup. I gotta have at 81mm mortars at the very least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 Yes but what about area denial? You wouldn't need spotters for that. Just use your indirect fire during setup. I gotta have at 81mm mortars at the very least. Trust me I tortured myself about it.. but came to the conclusion that I would rather have direct fire capability than indirect fire capability for this scenario. Firing behind the crests could be done with indirect weapons using TRPs scattered on the reverse slopes, but at what? An unknown target? Just fire and hope you hit something? I never like using artillery like that. We'll see how my decision works out as the game unfolds. Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Fair enough. I just wanted to read your reasoning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 Before I begin this turn report I wanted to say that GreenAsJade and I have reset this game to improve the lighting so the screenshots don't look so "dreary". We kept all purchases and orders exactly the same so our previous posts will still apply. Who loves ya?!! I must say that this terrain really reminds me of my time at the National Training Center (NTC) a bit too green however. The First Minute Purposeful and aggressive movement, decentralized control, and the hasty deployment of combined arms formations from the march to attack or defend characterize the movement to contact. At the end of the first turn my Stuart Section had reached its OP position. No visual contacts were reported. They will remain here for a few turns until I am certain nothing is moving on this sector... then I will bound them forward slowly. My Sherman Platoon has a slow climb ahead of them to the top of their mountain.. they had yet to reach the summit by the end of the turn. I want to start getting my infantry into good jump off positions so I am transporting my mounted platoon and one HMG section to the center of my line just behind the ridge. They will dismount here and the trucks will return to load up another Platoon. Finally, here is an overview showing all forward positioned units and movements: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I must say that this terrain really reminds me of my time at the National Training Center (NTC) a bit too green however. The most interesting thing in this thread so far. So, tell me, what exactly were you doing there. I need a little of your backround story!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 The most interesting thing in this thread so far. So, tell me, what exactly were you doing there. I need a little of your backround story!! Heh.. I was an Intel analyst with 1st Cavalry Division. The exercises I participated in at Ft. Irwin were among my fondest Army memories. I missed all the wars (too early, too late, or not in the right place) so this was the only time I was able to realistically apply my trade. It was a hoot discovering where the enemy was, and recovering their OB through their radio communications, SPOT reports, etc., and even more satisfying when our pre-battle analysis proved correct over and over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Man, these AAR's are like goin' to the movies. Beautiful screenshots, honest and wellwritten explanations of intentions and motives, doubts and fears, frustrations and (self)mockery. Random luck, blatent stupidity and cunning skills are all contributing to the nailbiting tension that the average viewer endures while watching these monumental battles. I'm in awe with the game, and as much with the creators of these AAR's. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 Man, these AAR's are like goin' to the movies. Beautiful screenshots, honest and wellwritten explanations of intentions and motives, doubts and fears, frustrations and (self)mockery. Random luck, blatent stupidity and cunning skills are all contributing to the nailbiting tension that the average viewer endures while watching these monumental battles. I'm in awe with the game, and as much with the creators of these AAR's. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Well thank you. It's my pleasure, I really enjoy pulling these together. Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Heh.. I was an Intel analyst with 1st Cavalry Division. Interesting. I was in the 1st Cavalry Division too for a while. I was in Air Defense Artillery though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Bil a touch of topic..I've always wondered for those who served in the Armed forces during peace whether it rankles a little and they'd wished they actually had a chance to try their trade in a real War environment rather than just exercise? I'm not sure how I'd feel. Lucky or envious. Or both. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 Hey Wodin good to see you in here. Well for me I was very unhappy about missing out on the first Gulf War. I was stationed in Korea at the time, volunteered to go, but the war ended before I could deploy. So in my case, yes I do have regrets. However I would not like the present situation either with multiple deployments. That must be a nightmare for our boys and girls that are forced to return over and over. Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 The recon and move to contact phases are my favorite aspects of CM. But one thing I almost never see players mention in the DARs and AARs is patrols. I'm no tactical guru, but whenever I read a historical account or watch a vintage training film on YouTube, I'm frequently struck by how systematically a unit was expected to have patrols out -- contact patrols to make sure there's LOS on the neighboring friendly unit, scouting patrols ahead, fighting patrols designed to provoke an enemy reaction, etc. "Always try to engage the enemy initially with the smallest possible force," the saying goes. I wonder if patrolling is an overlooked art among CM players, especially if the scenarios they play are often very short, the maps small, or the forces already or nearly in contact? Bil's use of the Stuarts for OPs is a move I really like, BTW. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I always read your AAR's;)..just quietly;) Will be sending you an email later today with regards to some advice needed. Hey Wodin good to see you in here. Well for me I was very unhappy about missing out on the first Gulf War. I was stationed in Korea at the time, volunteered to go, but the war ended before I could deploy. So in my case, yes I do have regrets. However I would not like the present situation either with multiple deployments. That must be a nightmare for our boys and girls that are forced to return over and over. Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 Broadsword you are exactly right. I think scouting, or even doing reconnaissance before committing your main body is something that is not done much in CM games. I try to always scout, patrol, recon (recce to you Brits, Aussies, and Canadians) call it what you will, before I decide what to do with my main force. The goal is to put yourself in a position to hit weakness with strength.. how can you do that if you don't know where the enemy is? I come from the Recon Pull school as opposed to Command Push (if you don't know what those are Google them and let's have a tactics discussion). Read my CMBN AAR for an example.. I scouted, or tried to with just a few tanks.. sure I lost several of them.. but I was able to get a lot of intelligence from those encounters and my opponent (The_Capt) didn't even know what I had fielded or how I was maneuvering until it was too late. Bil 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I come from the Recon Pull school as opposed to Command Push (if you don't know what those are Google them and let's have a tactics discussion). Is this similar to the "gaps and surfaces" concept? That's how I like to play. If it's a gap, attack it and exploit it. If it's a surface, bypass, isolate or neutralize it. The small lead elements that find a gaps "pull" the larger forces in behind them. It's like water flowing around hard stone to seek out the cracks and then widening them until they crack apart. The danger, of course, is mistaking a gap for a surface or vice versa. A canny enemy will create false gaps that can lure you into killzones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 The fundamentals of a movement to contact are— --Focus all efforts on finding the enemy. --Make initial contact with the smallest force possible, consistent with protecting the force. --Make initial contact with small, mobile, self-contained forces to avoid decisive engagement of the main body on ground chosen by the enemy. This allows the commander maximum flexibility to develop the situation. --Task-organize the force and use movement formations to deploy and attack rapidly in any direction. --Keep forces within supporting distances to facilitate a flexible response. --Maintain contact regardless of the course of action (COA) adopted once contact is gained. FM 3-90 - TACTICS The Second Minute Okay, still quiet. My forces are on the move still. The Shermans have yet to crest their mountain. I have learned in these first two turns how tough it is to maneuver on this terrain... especially on the mountains. It might be a few more turns until any contact is even made.. so you will have to be patient. My trucks laden with paras and the MG section are still moving to their jump off positions. I am so glad I brought four trucks to this fight... I actually wish I had four more. They are laden with ammunition and it is going to be the only way I can quickly move troops to the line. Once positioned, I will split off a few recce teams and scout the center valley. Remember I said up front where I expected this to be a key to the battle? I want to get eyes on the ground in there as quickly as possible and see if GaJ is pushing anything into it. I also want to control the center.. that will allow me to maneuver to either flank as required. I am tweaking the Stuart's positions some, rotating one, moving the other forward slightly, in order to get better visibility into the main maneuver zones (the valleys between the hills and ridges). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 Is this similar to the "gaps and surfaces" concept? That's how I like to play. If it's a gap, attack it and exploit it. If it's a surface, bypass, isolate or neutralize it. The small lead elements that find a gaps "pull" the larger forces in behind them. It's like water flowing around hard stone to seek out the cracks and then widening them until they crack apart. The danger, of course, is mistaking a gap for a surface or vice versa. A canny enemy will create false gaps that can lure you into killzones. Exactly.. called the "Expanding Torrent" by B.H. Liddell Hart. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I wonder if GAJ will be able to detect sound contacts from those tanks creeping up to their OPs? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I see the soldiers' canteens clipping the side of the truck :-( Hmmm...maybe they wet the canteen covers and hung them from hooks outside the truck -- an old cyclists' trick -- the flow of air over the wet cover chills the water. Very clever! The Second Minute 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 A few quotes on the subject Broadsword56 and I have been discussing: Determine his (the enemy's) dispositions and so ascertain the field of battle.. Probe him and learn where his strength is abundant and where deficient. Now an army may be likened to water, for just as flowing water avoids the heights and hastens to the lowlands, so an army avoids strengths and strikes weaknesses. Sun Tzu One thing is sure and fundamental to the issue: it is a risky business to attack an able opponent in a good position. Clauswitz ...and finally, Expanding Torrent: If we watch a torrent bearing down on each successive bank or earthen dam in its path, we see that first it beats against the obstacle, feeling it and testing it at all points. Eventually it finds a crack at some point. Through this crack pour the first driblets of water and rush straight on. The pent-up water on each side is drawn towards the flanks of the breach.. . wearing away the earth on each side, so widening the gap. Simultaneously, the water behind pours straight through the breach between the side eddies which are wearing away the flanks. Directly (after) it has passed through it expands to widen once more the onrush of the torrent. Thus Nature's forces carry out the ideal attack, automatically maintaining the speed, the breadth, and the continuity of the attack. B.H. Liddell Hart 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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