CM: Shock Force 2 Wish List

[Buzz]

NSA probably knows my shoe size by now

I did not realize Vitali Klitschko was a boxer but he sure looks like one! The reports of the meetings did not sound very productive. One BBC story noted how the protests are limited to certain areas in Kiev and other areas are safe and "normal" now. Much of Eastern Ukraine is non pulsed, zero protests and very Pro Russia while some protests are spreading in Western Ukraine. Sounds like a split is on the way unless someone cracks down and holds it all together.

"...CMSFv2 is very, very desirable and Ukraine would make a very viable, relevant and interesting AO. The really interesting point would be how the scenario developers keep the conflict regional and to what level of "total war" the combatants go to. When it comes to two tier one class opponents going at it (NATO vs Russia), space (not the sky) is literally the limit. With effects all the way to the tactical level. I cant imagine the US Army having to operate at this time without satellites, but destroying or limiting their use is within easy reach of any tier one opponent and vice versa. "

Very good point Gunhappy42. The new modern games will be interesting in many ways and may be Cmx 3.0 versions when they appear

"I cant imagine the US Army having to operate at this time without satellites, but destroying or limiting their use is within easy reach of any tier one opponent and vice versa."

You think the players have contingencies for an unplugged conflict

[ScoutPL]

I know for a fact they don't. We still teach Land Nav, hand drawn map overlays, etc. but only in the school house. Practical application is entirely devoted to how well we can leverage the tech advantage we have. So much so that we continue to drift away from the basics that the analog way of doing things require. And I mean the higher echelons of command of course, every level below the battalion will always fight the way they have fought since 1918 until something revolutionizes the area of kinetic weapons and/or body armor.

There are still a lot of senior leaders who remember the pre-satellite/laptop days but they are aging out, myself included. The idea of a battalion commander having to crawl under a poncho with his operations officer and develop, scribble down and radio transmit a FRAGO to the current order (like I saw in the 90s) is so foreign to our younger generation they find it laughable. Which would be fine except the current tech is extremely reliant on one point of vulnerability - satellites. This is common knowledge but often gets whitewashed in favor of our culture's gadget fetish.

There are alternatives of course. I heard a very viable proposal using cell tower tech. Essentially each Battalion HQ would erect a cell tower like antenna, thus creating a cell coverage area across the entire BDE or DIV battle space. Most of todays smart phones can do everything a BFT or CPOF (electronic, GPS based, C2 systems) can do, so its not that big a leap. A more perfect, contingency ready system might include both cell and Sat tech. But that will take money and development and by the time the govt has it figured out and purchases the needed equipment, Google will be teleporting people around the globe for 5 bucks.

[Buzz]

No contingencies for an unplugged conflict is not prepared!

Interesting observations you share Gunhappy42. Today on the road in the midst of a radio show encouraging folks to get prepared for this most winter blast the “gadget fetish” was also very evident in the general population. Call in radio show and some folks laughed at the suggestion they have a paper map in their vehicle. Several said I have this and that app so no map needed. One admitted he di not know how to read a map! One might consider what happens when the gadget does not have power or there is no signal and the roads are frozen and you are low on gas and it is near zero outside. There is an app for that and it is located in one’s head

The cell tower tech could be a work around when points of vulnerability - satellites are taken out.

“…I mean the higher echelons of command of course, every level below the battalion will always fight the way they have fought since 1918 until something revolutionizes the area of kinetic weapons and/or body armor….” Basic skills are important to survive and be effective.

Anytime I hear government folks talk about “closely coordinating agencies” solving a crisis I get nervous… and out of town

As for CMSF2 / “Black Sea” … I wonder how Battlefront will incorporate these pieces of the modern puzzle into the game?

[Buzz]

Add to CMCF-2 wish list please add the 3.0+ Engine and

* Backpack and vehicle flamethrowers

* Tank riders - cowboys;)

* Hit decals

* And lots more... for a complete list, please visit the "Overview" section.

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=330&Itemid=567

New Modern is going to be so much fun

[Dan7]

- The possibility to disable (or not) the duration of the mission, QB, launch or simply the option of unlimited duration (for fun)

- addition of a command : Never to fire

- addition of an adjustment of camera movement (parameterizable smoothing)

- ability to create groups or simply unit with keys 1-0

- force to fire with grenades (or special weapons (LAW ...) )

Thank you again for this great game!

[lurrp]

I think UAVs should not be controlled by the player. Rather, they are AI-controlled units that orbit the battlefield. They can detect enemy units, and will send the information down to commanders on the ground who then send it down the C2 chain. However, the contact icon is more of a snapshot, and doesn't move around as the spotted unit moves. In other words, the contact marker you get only shows you what type of unit it and where it was when the UAV flew over. I don't know how light UAVs launched in-game would work, nor have I thought of how UAV-launched missiles would work.

[Combatintman]

lurrp - depends on your UAV - I would expect to be able to control the smaller ones such as Desert Hawk because that is ground truth reality. Larger ones such as Pred should be subject to control subject to a time delay. UAV munitions should behave in exactly the same way as CAS currently works.

[ScoutPL]

I can see a use for UAVs, just probably not in game. This goes back to the constant debate about reconnaissance and whether it can and/or should be replicated in CM games.

Practically all a UAV provides is eyes on an objective or NAI (Named Area of Interest). An objective that you know you are going to hit and want to collect intel on or an area or route that you suspect the enemy will be using and you need eyes on to confirm or deny that assumption. Once you are within small arms range of your enemy (ie the scope of CM) they become pretty useless.

There just isnt any way for a commander to get full motion video (FMV) of his objective WHILE he is attacking. It requires setting up a workstation with a satlink, etc. Something you can do in a CP or the back of a vehicle, but honestly if the commander has his eyes glued to his TV he is already losing the battle because you cant lead/make decisions watching a television displaying one small part of the battlefield. You can delegate someone to watch the tube and send you updates but that takes time, flows through a filter only as good as your guidance, and will usually be minutes late.

The true value in UAVs is in their ability to provide you information during planning. So the next time you play CMSF, turn the intel feed up as high it will go at the beginning of the scenario and attribute it to more UAV resources than you would ever dream of as a battalion or brigade commander. And enjoy!

[ScoutPL]

Reading through Red Thunder AAR spurred another Iwanna. Ability to set units to prone. Hide doesn't allow spotting well enough to set an ambush and Slow only works for so long and they will start taking a knee. Option to force prone stance would be nice.

[Sequoia]

Add to CMCF-2 wish list please add the 3.0+ Engine

* Backpack and vehicle flamethrowers

Does any modern army still have any?

[Vark]

I'd like the squad to move in tactical pairs, not all running close to each other, just lost a British recce team to a RR, because they all insisted in moving as a group!

[Mastiff]

No contingencies for an unplugged conflict is not prepared!

Interesting observations you share Gunhappy42. Today on the road in the midst of a radio show encouraging folks to get prepared for this most winter blast the “gadget fetish” was also very evident in the general population. Call in radio show and some folks laughed at the suggestion they have a paper map in their vehicle. Several said I have this and that app so no map needed. One admitted he di not know how to read a map! One might consider what happens when the gadget does not have power or there is no signal and the roads are frozen and you are low on gas and it is near zero outside. There is an app for that and it is located in one’s head

The cell tower tech could be a work around when points of vulnerability - satellites are taken out.

“…I mean the higher echelons of command of course, every level below the battalion will always fight the way they have fought since 1918 until something revolutionizes the area of kinetic weapons and/or body armor….” Basic skills are important to survive and be effective.

Anytime I hear government folks talk about “closely coordinating agencies” solving a crisis I get nervous… and out of town

As for CMSF2 / “Black Sea” … I wonder how Battlefront will incorporate these pieces of the modern puzzle into the game?

yes there is, its called Gorilla war-fare..

[Combatintman]

Does any modern army still have any?

Not quite a flamethrower but described as such:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPO-A_Shmel

[ScoutPL]

They are outlawed by Geneva Conventions or some other weapons agreement.

That will hold until, of course, one of the major powers decides they need to storm a line of pillboxes again... Not much use for anything else. For most strongpoints requiring direct fire these days we use AT4, TOWs, and/or Javelins.

[Saferight]

Heres a few clips of Russian thermobaric weapons in action. Truly devastating weapons.

TBG-7V being used in Syria pretty big blast oh and music warning

Supposed failed TBG-7V warhead Syria

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6lkrDvGlbg

Russian training with themrobaric weapons, first Launcher is a MRO-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzclBelkGEY

Development of RPO Shmel in Russian

[ScoutPL]

To correct an earlier post...

The US voluntarily stopped using flamethrowers in 1978. Apparently they are not controlled by any sort of arms agreements.

I think they are just impractical, at least the old tank and nozzle variety. As saferights videos demonstrate you can get much the same effect from a specifically designed rocket propelled warhead.

Or since much larger and accurate warheads are man portable (Javelin) just let the HE and the overpressure do the work.

[Buzz]

"There will be no "upgrade" for CMSF. We are going to "port" the setting to the newer version of the engine. Which means you'll get 100% the same stuff as all the other CM games. And that is precisely why this is going to be a heavy load of work. TO&E, models, textures, terrain format, etc. have all changed dramatically over the years. There's pretty much nothing in CMSF that won't need significant reworking to get it to function in the current game engine."

Steve

After "Black Sea" is released, the newer version of the engine for the CMSF port appears to be V.3.0!

[Sequoia]

When Steve says TO&E has changed, does he mean in the way the Engine handles TO&E? Since we're staying with 2008 actual force structure wouldn't be changing.

[ChrisND]

When Steve says TO&E has changed, does he mean in the way the Engine handles TO&E? Since we're staying with 2008 actual force structure wouldn't be changing.

The way that the game's TO&E is structured has changed dramatically since the early days of CMSF. The new TO&E database makes constructing TO&E much easier, faster, and more flexible. However, for CMSF this is going to result in a one-time task of modifying the CMSF TO&E to work in the new database, and it will be a big task. I should know, since I'm the poor sap that has to do most of it. :eek:

This is also potentially the biggest stumbling block to getting CMSF scenarios made with the "old" CMSF to work with the "new" CMSF. But we're going to try our darnedest to get them to.

[Buzz]

When you get CMSF scenarios made with the "old" CMSF to work with the "new" CMSF … I suspect you will have a bucket load of "old" CMSF customers re-up for the "new" CMSF port to V.3.0.

[Buzz]

ChrisND, I understand you have your arms full making the new TO&E database for CMSF-2 and this job is potentially the biggest stumbling block to getting CMSF scenarios made with the "old" CMSF to work with the "new" CMSF. Best of luck in making this work. I hope we get some hints of your success as progress occurs.

I would like to add to the “wish list” … wished for items not expected… a couple of utilities features for Mac as well as PC.

1 - The ability for the editor to disassemble campaigns as Skwabie recently did for all the original CMSF campaigns.

2 - A MadMike tool to create a sortable listing of all scenarios (btt files) in a given directory.

I ma only suggesting these enhancements for some future bump Chris. If you can get the new TO&E database for CMSF-2 to make the "old" CMSF to work with the "new" CMSF I will be more than satisfied.

Please keep posting streams/videos of Red Thunder. Very enjoyable.

Thanks,

[costard]

I'm not sure if this has been requested, but I'd like to have the ability to designate communications as FUBAR in the editor.

[ckolonko]

I'd like to see a counter insurgency type campaign. This could involve the use of Patrol and Forward Operating bases as well as presence patrols and influencing local populations.

[mvp7]

I guess the Black Sea is pretty much done already but here are my most wanted features for CMx2 anyway. (In a kind of priority orders, 1. being the most wanted)

Big gameplay/engine features

1. Infantry that keeps it's distance - The very first thing they teach about movement in the army is to stay 3-5 meters away from people around you so one explosion or burst won't kill half the squad. In CM I have seen three guys die of the same AP-mine, running in some kind of human-centipede formation . This is really important in modern warfare because even badly trained troops should know this. Infantry movement in general could use an overhaul.

2. Aggressive hunt movement - Current 'Hunt' is pretty much 'Move-to-contact' (and a very good one for doing just that). For any urban combat, house clearing or trench sweeping there should be some kind of movement mode where infantry moves a bit faster, only stops to shoot the enemy and continues the movement order after that and if engine allows they could also lob grenades into rooms they are entering if they have any sort of contact there (old visual, sound etc). This would be bit like the old 'assault' from CMx1 (and the CMx2 assault could use a bit more firepower from the advancing team, like hipfire on the move to suppress when close to enemy)

3. 30 second turns - A lot can happen in a minute and for modern warfare scale and pace I believe 30 second turns would be a great option. Just yesterday I watched an entire infantry platoon get slaughtered down to six men as they valiantly tried to fulfill their order to move into what turned out to be a AT gun kill-zone about 3 seconds after the start of the turn.

4. Full mission replays without fog of war - This would be so great for video making and seeing what happened.

5. Replay for real time mode - Biggest reason I still play turn based is the lack of replay which I find to be absolutely vital feature for following anything more than a platoon sized battle (plus who doesn't enjoy watching that sweet tank kill for couple times ). Maybe this could be made as a one minute replay buffer or something?

Small things and conveniences

1. Proper rank insignia on the 3D troops - This would really increase the immersion and seems like a logical next step for all that lovely detail put into the soldiers. Maybe this could be done like the decal overlay on vehicles or something? That could be continued into dynamic markings on units like numbers and unit insignia etc.

2. More consistent hand/rifle grenade performance - Sometimes a running man can shrug off an offensive grenade blowing mid air half meter away or even right at his feet. This change would of course require units to have proper formations so single grenades wouldn't wipe out entire squads (not too often at least )

3. Possibility to re-mobilize vehicles that are jammed to the terrain - It's just really annoying when your precious vehicle gets jammed right at the start and is stuck for ever. Infantry standing around the jammed vehicle should start un-jamming it (sticking logs under the tracks, showeling etc). It should take a long time of course, the longer the heavier the vehicle and worse the terrain.

4. Possibility to salvage enemy equipment as in buddy aid - Only as a very last resort of course. It's hard to imagine that a infantry squad completely out of ammo and anti-tank weapons would sneer at those AKs and RPGs lying right next to them when enemy is coming closer and closer.

5. Possibility to order crew to dismount at waypoint - Again, 1 minute is a long time and I often end up wasting half a minute of precious time when deploying forward observers from their jeeps for example.

Modules

1. Shock Force like scenario - CM Shock force did incredible job at depicting normal modern warfare (aka 3rd world country stomping scenarios), where victory was not an issue but rather achieving the victory with politically correct losses and without leveling too much cultural heritage. I really hope we will see something like this in Black Sea branch (too bad SF is not going to be getting version patches )

2. Israeli scenario - They have some interesting hardware and are surrounded by other countries that have interesting hardware.

3. Militia-vs-Militia scenario Something like your average African civil war conflict with ill equipped and badly trained troops fighting each other. Not sure how well this would work in CM but it could be interesting.

edit. Just noticed that upgrade for Shock Force is planned! That's great news and I'm really looking forward to it and I'm happy that this excellent version of CM is not abandoned. Finally I'll be able to use area target without exhausting my tank's HE shells during one turn

[Buzz]

Nice additions mvp7. Thanks.

ChrisND has his plate full with CMSF Resurrection into the modern game engine. If he can manage to make bringing the original CMSF material along happen ... you will IMO see a renewed interest in a classic game that that kick started CMx2 and it's children.