Ost Battalions

[Sequoia]

I think I have the terminology right. I'm refering to battalions of Soviet volunteers who prefered fighting for the Germans over the starvation rations in the POW camps. I know the French keep missing out on CMX2 releses, but do these Ost Battalions deserve consideration for inclusion in a Battlepack after Market-Garden? I don't know if thier uniforms and TO&E was different than a typical German infantry battalion.

[c3k]

Totally based on my recollection of distantly read passages, but other than one unit near St. Mere Eglise, didn't the Ost Battalions tend to surrender as soon as feasible?

[Pak40]

"Volunteers" is a strong word. They were mostly conscripts led by German officers. While there desire to fight was certainly not up to the level of a typical Panzer Grenadier unit, I think in many cases they held they're own when fighting. Some men certainly tried to surrender when they could, others died after putting up a good fight.

As far as equipment goes, I think they were decently equipped for a static unit.

[JonS]

They weren't really 'static' units, and made up a substantial proportion of the German inf bns in Normandy (I want to say 10%). Most infantry divisions had at least one, some had several, and there were independent bdes wholly made up of Ost Bns. There's a staggeringly colourful variety of them too - Georgians, Turks, Cossacks, etc.

Equipment wise, they tended to be on the poor side - captured French or Czech 47mm instead of German 50mm A-Tk guns, that kind of thing. Not terrible, but not first rank. And TOE-wise similar enough to bog-standard German units that I don't see much merit in having them as a standalone force (except for maybe the cossack cavalry ... )

Their reliability (from the German's perspective) was highly variable. The one behind UTAH fought reasonably well for 24-48 hours, and there were several east of SWORD that caused some problems. The ones at OMAHA caused predictable problems too.

But they seem to completely vanish from the narratives within about a week of D-Day. I don't know what happened - either they were all destroyed (unlikely), pulled back from frontline duty and used as anti-partisan forces (quite possible), disolved and used as replacements for German bns (possible), they may simply have become less interesting in their own right once the Normandy campaign settled down to large scale industrial slaughter, or some other thing. The Polish Armd Div used POWs who were Poles as a significant source of replacements from August onwards, so presumably they - the Ost Bn guys - were still around in some capacity (although that assumes that the Poles in the German forces were ever considered Ost - I don't know, were they?).

David Isby's "Fighting in Normandy" has a couple of significant passages about them - covering good and bad performances, IIRC - from the first few days of the invasion. Richard Hargreaves' "The Germans in Normandy" might also have something useful.

A quick rummage found these units in Normandy:

III/GR.857 (Ost.630) (in 346 Inf Div)

Ost.Btl.857 (711 Inf Div)

Ost.Btl.642 (716 Inf Div)

Ost.Btl.441 (716 Inf Div)

Ost.Art.752 (mix of 105mm hows, AA, and pioneers!? in 275 Inf Div)

I/Mittle (Ost) (275 Inf Div)

Georgian.Btl.798 (275 Inf Div)

Ost.Btl.439 (716 Inf Div, attached to 352 inf Div)

Ost.Btl.602 (77 Inf Div)

Wolga.Btl.627 (77 Inf Div)

Ost.Btty.582 (100mm how, in 77 Inf Div)

Ost.Btl.561 (243 Inf Div)

2/Georg.797 (company only, with 243 Inf Div)

3/Georg.795 (company only, with 243 Inf Div)

Ost.Btl.649 (709 inf Div)

Georgian.Btl.795 (less 3. Kp, 709 inf Div)

Georgian.Btl.797 (less 2. Kp, Korps asset)

Ost.Btl.281 (Korps asset)

Ost.Btl.635 (Korps asset)

Ost.Btl.Huber (Korps asset)

[JonS]

These ones were also in 'the West':

Ost-Btl. 804 (Aserbeidschanisches) (Azerbijan, LXV korps)

Ost-Btl. 806 (Aserbeidschanisches) (Azerbijan, LXV korps)

Ost-Btl. 447 (XXXXVII Pz.K)

Ost-Tragtier-Btl. 1000 (Turkestanisches) (Turkistan, LXXXVIII Armeekorps)

Ost-Btl. 787 (Turkestanisches) (IV./Gren.-Regt. (861) (347 Inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 803 (Nordkaukasisches) (IV./Gren.Regt. 860) (North Caucasus, 347 Inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 822 (Georgisches) (16. Feld-Div. (LW))

Ost-Btl. 812 (Armenisches) (Armenian) (IV./Gren.Regt. 743) (719 inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 826 (Wolgatatarisches) (IV./Gren.Regt. 723) (719 inf Div)

Ost-Brückenbau-Btl. 605 (Russiches) (Bridging bn, 15th Army)

Ost-Btl. 570 (Kossack) (15th Army)

Ost-Btl. 618 (Russiches) (15th Army)

Ost-Btl. 781 (Turkestanisches) (15th Army)

Ost-Btl. 600 (Russiches?) (712 Inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 628 (Russiches) (I./Gren.Regt. 745) (712 Inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 809 (Armenisches) (III./Gren.Regt. 128) (48 inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 624 (Kossack) (III./Gren.-Regt. 854) (344 inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 625 (Kossack) (III./Gren.-Rget. 855) (344 inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 813 (Armenisches) (III./Gren.-Regt. 863) (348 inf Div)

III./Luftwaffe-Jäger-Regiment 34 (Ost-Btl. 835 (Nordkaukasisches)) (17. Feld-Div. (LW))

Ost-Artl.-Abtl. 621 (Russiches) (17. Feld-Div. (LW))

Ost-Btl. 630 (Russiches) (I./Gren.-Regt. 857) (17. Feld-Div. (LW))

Ost-Pi.-Kp. 752 (243 Inf Div)

IV./Gren.Regt. 582 (Ost-Btl. 643) (319 Inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 823 (IV./Gren.Regt. 583) (Georgisches) (319 Inf Div)

III./ Ost-Ausbildungs-Regt.-Mitte (IV./GrenRegt. 897) (266 Inf Div)

Ost-Btl.629 (Russiches) (IV./Gren.Regt. 899) (266 inf Div)

Ost-Reiter-Abtl. 281 (XXV Armeekorps)

Ost-Btl. 633 (343 Inf Div)

II./ Ost-Ausbildungs-Regt.-Mitte (343 Inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 800 (Nordkaukasiches) (265 inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 634 (265 inf Div)

Ost-Radf.-Btl. 285 (Russiches) (265 inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 636 (Russiches) (265 inf Div)

Ost-Brückenbau-Btl. 601 (Russiches) (19 AOK)

IV./ Gren.-Regt. 757 (Ost-Btl. 665 (Russiches)) (338 Inf Div)

I./Gren.-Regt. 759 (Ost-Btl. 663 (Russiches)) (338 Inf Div)

IV./Gren.-Regt. 932 (Ost-Btl. 666 (Russiches)) (244 Inf Div)

IV./Gren.-Regt. 934 (Ost-Btl. 681 (Russiches)) (244 Inf Div)

IV./Gren.-Regt. 765 (Ost-Btl. 807 (Aserbeidschanisches)) (242 Inf Div)

IV./Gren.-Regt. 239 (Ost-Btl. 661 (Russiches)) (148 Res. inf Div)

Ost-Btl. 669 (Russiches) (Militärbefehlshaberen im Bereich Ob.West)

Ost-Btl. 827 (Wolgatatarisches) (Militärbefehlshaberen im Bereich Ob.West)

Ost-Btl. 406 (Russiches) (Transport-Sich.-Regt. Paris)

Ost-Btl. 654 (Russiches) (Transport-Sich.-Regt. Paris)

Ost-Btl. 680 (Russiches) (Transport-Sich.-Regt. Paris)

Ost-Btl. 837 (Wolgafinnisches) (Transport-Sich.-Regt. Paris)

Ost-Btl. 615 (Russiches) (Befehlshaber im Bizerk Nordwestfrankreich)

Ost-Btl. 799 (Georgisches) (Befehlshaber im Bizerk Nordwestfrankreich)

Soooooo ... yeah. Quite a few of them. :eek:

P.S., Wolga.Btl.627 (77 Inf Div) mutineed on 1 Jul!

[JasonC]

Most of these were not POWs. Between 2/3 and 3/4 were not Russians either.

A modest portion were Poles or western Ukrainians or other easterners outside the prewar Soviet Union, most (easily half) were ethnic minorities from inside the USSR - Cossacks and other "former whites", meaning groups that had opposed the communists during the Russian civil war and were basically occupied nations when the Germans arrived - and roughly a third were Russians, White Russians or Ukrainians recruited in a grab bag of distinct ways (anti communist volunteers, freed POWs, impressed conscripts, one time camp followers pressed into military service after previous roles as batmen and servants, etc).

Their quality is combat was abysmal due to low motivation and cohesion. A few formations fought well briefly, but most surrendered or simply deserted (hiding out and "going civilian"), in large numbers and at the first reasonable opportunity. The German "thought" if that is the word was that they would prove more reliable in the west, where they were not being asked to fight against their countrymen. But the reality was most of them were only interested in bearing arms if they could do so trying to free the Soviet Union or their corner of it from communist rule. With the war being lost and facing western allies with whom they had not the slightest quarrel, they had basically no reason to risk their lives in battle.

[Rastamon]

What was General Marcks (?) comments about them: "What do you expect from Russians (Poles, Urkranians, Turks, etc.) fighting for the Germans in France against the Americans"

[Steiner14]

With the war being lost and facing western allies with whom they had not the slightest quarrel, they had basically no reason to risk their lives in battle.

The western alliies were the reason, why their nations became occupied by the Communist criminals again.

Especially the tenthousand Cossaks that received the word of honor from the British Army not to be deported into Stalin's and Tito's hands and as soon as they had laid down their weapons becauseo of this promise, the Brits and the war criminal Churchill immediately deported them into Stalin's, the praised liberators, hands. And you wonder why nobody has ever heard of them again? :mad:

The fighting in the occupied nations in the east ("liberated" in New World Order Orwell speak) continued long into 1948 and beyond despite the incredible fierce communist terror.

It's absolutely logical, why the story of these true patriots is unknown and untold in a world where the globalists have prevailed over the idea of independent and souvereign nations.

[GreenGriffin]

The war criminal Churchhill?

This isn't going to turn into another Baron Jacquinot thread, is it?

[$Pec5]

The war criminal Churchhill?

This isn't going to turn into another Baron Jacquinot thread, is it?

+1 to that

On a similar note, on a somewhat related note:

what happened to John Kettler? He used to post about 100x a day, now I don't see any of his posts.

[baron Jacquinot]

The war criminal Churchhill?

This isn't going to turn into another Baron Jacquinot thread, is it?

Please no, I don't want one more ban))))))))))

[baron Jacquinot]

The western alliies were the reason, why their nations became occupied by the Communist criminals again.

Especially the tenthousand Cossaks that received the word of honor from the British Army not to be deported into Stalin's and Tito's hands and as soon as they had laid down their weapons becauseo of this promise, the Brits and the war criminal Churchill immediately deported them into Stalin's, the praised liberators, hands. And you wonder why nobody has ever heard of them again? :mad:

The fighting in the occupied nations in the east ("liberated" in New World Order Orwell speak) continued long into 1948 and beyond despite the incredible fierce communist terror.

It's absolutely logical, why the story of these true patriots is unknown and untold in a world where the globalists have prevailed over the idea of independent and souvereign nations.

Communists kill two of my Grand Grandfathers for one reason, they was just immigrants form Polish part of West Ukraine and Lithuania which faith that live in Soviet Russia will be much better than in Poland, but in 1937 they was disappointment. But... If Hitler defeat Soviet Union, maybe he kill more off my ancestors, maybe all, maybe non, who knows?

[Sublime]

Id say it was almost certain that your ancestors would have been killed off by people working for Hitler.

But yes, I think it was very wrong some of the things the West did, specifically to Poland. Allowing the Russians to divvy up Poland with Germany, but only declare war on Germany. In Churchill's defense he was up in arms about Poland and Roosevelt HEAVILY leaned on him to leave Stalin alone on it.

A German could make the same case about some of the Waffen SS units at the end of war though - IIRC a few larger units surrendered to Western Allies on purpose or fought through Soviet troops to surrender to Allies to promptly be turned over to the Soviets again. Fact is, I don't really feel bad for those arrogant SS guys, and I don't think it'd be dishonorable for an Allied commander to let the SS surrender then turn them over if it'd save some lives. So I guess perhaps a German could not make that point, at least with SS

By the way Baron, in English instead of Grand Grand father we'd say Great Grandfather. It goes like son, father, grandfather, great grandfather, great great grandfather, etc.

[LukeFF]

now I don't see any of his posts.

I wouldn't call that a bad thing.

[Sublime]

The western alliies were the reason, why their nations became occupied by the Communist criminals again.

Especially the tenthousand Cossaks that received the word of honor from the British Army not to be deported into Stalin's and Tito's hands and as soon as they had laid down their weapons becauseo of this promise, the Brits and the war criminal Churchill immediately deported them into Stalin's, the praised liberators, hands. And you wonder why nobody has ever heard of them again? :mad:

The fighting in the occupied nations in the east ("liberated" in New World Order Orwell speak) continued long into 1948 and beyond despite the incredible fierce communist terror.

It's absolutely logical, why the story of these true patriots is unknown and untold in a world where the globalists have prevailed over the idea of independent and souvereign nations.

Actually I'd lay quite a bit of the blame on the Nazis. First of all the Nazis tried to take over all of the countries AND MORE occupied by the Communists because the 'criminal' Churchill. Why aren't we talking about the criminals Hitler, Goering, etc?

Second, the Nazis made a little Pact with the Soviets in the end of the 30s allowing the Soviets to occupy the Baltic and Poland.

Finally - the Nazi invasion of Russia ended up letting the Russians legitimately invade and occupy half of Europe. Steiner maybe you have a source on the 'criminal' Churchill that'll show me he was involved in the planning of Barbarossa? Churchill was right at the end of the war, a trial, even a show trial, was too good for those Nazi bastards they should have just lined them up and shot them.

[baron Jacquinot]

Actually I'd lay quite a bit of the blame on the Nazis. First of all the Nazis tried to take over all of the countries AND MORE occupied by the Communists because the 'criminal' Churchill. Why aren't we talking about the criminals Hitler, Goering, etc?

Second, the Nazis made a little Pact with the Soviets in the end of the 30s allowing the Soviets to occupy the Baltic and Poland.

Finally - the Nazi invasion of Russia ended up letting the Russians legitimately invade and occupy half of Europe. Steiner maybe you have a source on the 'criminal' Churchill that'll show me he was involved in the planning of Barbarossa? Churchill was right at the end of the war, a trial, even a show trial, was too good for those Nazi bastards they should have just lined them up and shot them.

Don't quarrel guys, all this politicos is criminals, all they give order to kill white people in Europe, Russia, Atlantic, all they nothing more than NWO puppets, but real puppeteers stay in shadow.

[womble]

what happened to John Kettler? He used to post about 100x a day, now I don't see any of his posts.

Perhaps our Lizard Overlords (all hail) finally found him and his mind razor wasn't ready, or he's having to lie low having narrowly escaped their assassination squad.

[Badger73]

<snipped>

what happened to John Kettler? He used to post about 100x a day, now I don't see any of his posts.

From what I gleaned, John Kettler was reported as convalescing after a serious injury and subsequent hospital stay last month. His convalescence center apparently has no internet access which is why his absence here is so conspicuous. His prognosis is good. Wish him well.

[JonS]

I'm not sure what's worse: the prospect of Kettler returning, or Jacquinot remaining.

[baron Jacquinot]

I'm not sure what's worse: the prospect of Kettler returning, or Jacquinot remaining.

What's problem JonS?

[umlaut]

By God! That´s it! After all these years we finally have the proof:

He did inhale!

[Sgt Joch]

The western alliies were the reason, why their nations became occupied by the Communist criminals again.

Especially the tenthousand Cossaks that received the word of honor from the British Army not to be deported into Stalin's and Tito's hands and as soon as they had laid down their weapons becauseo of this promise, the Brits and the war criminal Churchill immediately deported them into Stalin's, the praised liberators, hands. And you wonder why nobody has ever heard of them again? :mad:

The fighting in the occupied nations in the east ("liberated" in New World Order Orwell speak) continued long into 1948 and beyond despite the incredible fierce communist terror.

It's absolutely logical, why the story of these true patriots is unknown and untold in a world where the globalists have prevailed over the idea of independent and souvereign nations.

I was going to respond...

...but why do you bother posting this tripe? slow day at work?

The West had two choices, fight against the USSR or fight against the Nazis. We chose the lesser of two evils.

Everyone suspected that the USSR would probably not leave the areas it "liberated", again not much we could do without going to war with the USSR. Churchill did try to negotiate some influence in Eastern Europe and did manage to carve out Greece. Again lesser of two evils.

Forced repatraiation of the Cossacks after the war? yes, not the West's finest hour, but there were realpolitik considerations.

[baron Jacquinot]

I was going to respond...

...but why do you bother posting this tripe? slow day at work?

The West had two choices, fight against the USSR or fight against the Nazis. We chose the lesser of two evils.

Everyone suspected that the USSR would probably not leave the areas it "liberated", again not much we could do without going to war with the USSR. Churchill did try to negotiate some influence in Eastern Europe and did manage to carve out Greece. Again lesser of two evils.

Forced repatraiation of the Cossacks after the war? yes, not the West's finest hour, but there were realpolitik considerations.

And you forgot third evil - British/US Empire.

[Sublime]

Ok two problems with that Baron. First, the US and British are two seperate entities, you cannot claim they are one and the same, even as Allies.

Second, in what possible way could you claim either the British or US were anywhere near as 'evil' as the Nazi's or Soviets? Genocide? Shtraf battalions? Commissar order? Human land mine clearance? The Holocaust? Katyn Forest?

The very worst you could say about the US during the period is the deportation of it's Asian American citizens in the country. Thats light years away from what the Nazi's and Soviets were doing. Seriously man, do you just believe everything you're told if someone is wearing an armband or something?

[Spinoza]

Ahem .. this brings some memories.. once , by a complete accident , I happened to stumble in to this dungeon.. full of people of both sexes, as it happens, wearing only armbands.. I have to admit , they were very persuasive..