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The Road Ahead - Operation Bagration


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One of the design issues with chosing this as the first outing on the Ostfront/Great Patriotic War is the fact that most of the Geman side was infantry units and the odd Panzer Grenadier as the Panzer Divisions were held back at AG Nord Ukraine.

However all is not lost as you have interesting units such as 78 Sturm Division and Army level Panzerjager units equiped with Nashorns.

On the Soviet side there is their quite limited range of armour T34/76 T34/85 KV1 and T70 but also in this area were units such as 5th Mech Corps armed with Shermans and other armed with Valentines. Of special interest were T34 armed with mine rollers who saw their first use here.

Another challenge is the heavy scale of Soviet artillery

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One of the design issues with chosing this as the first outing on the Ostfront/Great Patriotic War is the fact that most of the Geman side was infantry units and the odd Panzer Grenadier as the Panzer Divisions were held back at AG Nord Ukraine.

However all is not lost as you have interesting units such as 78 Sturm Division and Army level Panzerjager units equiped with Nashorns.

On the Soviet side there is their quite limited range of armour T34/76 T34/85 KV1 and T70 but also in this area were units such as 5th Mech Corps armed with Shermans and other armed with Valentines. Of special interest were T34 armed with mine rollers who saw their first use here.

Another challenge is the heavy scale of Soviet artillery

I don't think the title will be limited to the particular units involved in Bagration itself so much as to the units possessed by both sides at that time in the war.

Am I wrong, BTS?

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I expect that the initial game will be rather limited, hopefully the modules will include things like partisans, SS, luftwaffe troops, maybe some axis minors, etc. Also, I don't care much about Shermans but expect to see the SU-122s and other Sov assault guns/TDs.

Can't wait!

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One of the design issues with chosing this as the first outing on the Ostfront/Great Patriotic War is the fact that most of the Geman side was infantry units and the odd Panzer Grenadier as the Panzer Divisions were held back at AG Nord Ukraine.

However all is not lost as you have interesting units such as 78 Sturm Division and Army level Panzerjager units equiped with Nashorns.

On the Soviet side there is their quite limited range of armour T34/76 T34/85 KV1 and T70 but also in this area were units such as 5th Mech Corps armed with Shermans and other armed with Valentines. Of special interest were T34 armed with mine rollers who saw their first use here.

Another challenge is the heavy scale of Soviet artillery

Well - that also depends on what BF class as operation bagration. I guess if they mean just the tactical breakthrough phase of the offensive then you have some stugs and one panzer division - but bagration had two further distinct phases which should cover every major weapon system the germans and soviets had so I dont see there being a problem.

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Another challenge is the heavy scale of Soviet artillery

People have made a big deal about this going back to CMBB days, and in CMBB we did get a lot of heavy Soviet artillery assets. But as I recall, relatively few CMBB scenarios used the really heavy Soviet stuff and frankly I think that players overestimate the applicability of massive Soviet Artillery fires to the CM scale.

It's true that the Soviets often laid down massive prep barrages, lasting sometimes for days and often reaching well behind the German front lines.

However, even late war, the Soviets' ability to adjust indirect fire quickly and on the fly was limited. They simply lacked the radio net and trained officers to do so.

So there was usually a time gap between the end of the prep barrages and the actual assault. In CM terms, this means that the really heavy Soviet steel rain would have already fallen by the time the CM scenario starts, and would be better represented in the game by on-map damage (craters, etc.), and by the condition of German forces at scenario start (reduced head counts, units beginning the battle fatigued, etc.).

You can also argue for other indirect effects, like German forces on defense starting scenarios outside their defensive firing positions to represent units that have moved away from fighting positions in order to avoid getting hit by prep barrages. You then get an interesting setup where might be a race between the advancing attackers, and the defenders trying to re-occupy the defensive positions.

The lack of flexibility in their artillery arm is part of why the Soviets relied so heavily on Direct Fire HE right through the end of the war -- tracked assault guns, towed guns, mortars brought up to direct LOS of the enemy, etc.

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You can also argue for other indirect effects, like German forces on defense starting scenarios outside their defensive firing positions to represent units that have moved away from fighting positions in order to avoid getting hit by prep barrages. You then get an interesting setup where might be a race between the advancing attackers, and the defenders trying to re-occupy the defensive positions.

Now that's an interesting possibility.

Michael

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Well the good news is that a significant amount of the German equipment for the summer of 44 is there. And now 43 too! In addition, the Soviet Shermans probably could be tweaked from the American or Brit ones... The thing is though people may think Bagration may not be the best start to CMx2 Ost Front, I disagree. I think it's as good as starting point as any, and though of course the campaigns and historical scenarios will be based around Bagration, that doesnt mean user created scenarios or QBs couldnt be made to represent almost anything in that region at that time.

Personally Im REAALLY looking forward to Jan-May 45 Ost Front, and 1941. The rest is fantastic too of course but...

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What JRMC said...

Specifically, at the start of Bagration there were only a couple of mobile divisions in the sector, though also several hundred StuGs, for about 500 AFVs overall. But the Germans rapidly shifted a full panzer army worth of panzer forces north from the Ukraine, and threw them into the path of the Russian offensive. There is plenty of scope for every part of the late war German force to be represented in this battle.

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You then get an interesting setup where might be a race between the advancing attackers, and the defenders trying to re-occupy the defensive positions.

To properly simulate this setup we need recrewable guns. Because its stayed on positions during bombardment while crews have hided in shelters and in rear areas.

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To DAF on tank types - the Russians had 85 IS-2s at the start of Bagration, in 4 regiments. They also fielded 295 heavy ISUs, the ISU-122 or ISU-152 models, in 14 regiments. That is not an inconsequential amount of heavier armor. It is about 10% of the fleet, roughly.

For comparison, when 5th Panzer division reached the sector from the south, it was a major reinforcement because it brought 49 Tiger Is (in 501 and 505 battalions) and 70 Panthers, along with 55 Panzer IVs. (Which then ran into 3 times their number of Russians, but that is another story).

T-34/85s were already present in numbers. Notably, the 5th Tank Army spearhead had a full tank corps equipped uniformly with the new T-34/85s. There was as you mentioned a corps with Shermans, all M4A2 short 75 models, with Valentines as its lights (where T-70s would be in the TOE) - it worked with a cavalry corps rather than the mech spearhead.

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The thing is though people may think Bagration may not be the best start to CMx2 Ost Front, I disagree. I think it's as good as starting point as any, and though of course the campaigns and historical scenarios will be based around Bagration, that doesnt mean user created scenarios or QBs couldnt be made to represent almost anything in that region at that time.

Personally Im REAALLY looking forward to Jan-May 45 Ost Front, and 1941. The rest is fantastic too of course but...

To date Battlefront have kept the scale of their horizons really very small, 3 months at most (I reckon they will stick to June/July) and quite a limited vehicle range, look at Normandy and the new Sicily. Of course this time around they already have much of the German forces and so only have to add the new Soviet ones. So we should get all of the tanks plus a good smattering of SUs. Unit wise it would be Rifle Divisions, Airbourne Divisions, Tank Corps, Mech Corps with US style lorries, Guards Rifle and Guards Tank but I do not think that we will get Cavalry/Mech units as they cannot do horses. Likewise Flamethrowers can't be done. So I bet they will stick to the north and so avoid the horses which were more towards the Pripet Marshes.

The shame is that the only terrain you will get is Belarus with its heavy woods and wooden houses not at all like the south.

I doubt if you will get the Final Battle for Germany and there is no way that you will get 1941! Battlefronts game plan is to re-use as much material in new games as they can, as with the higher grade graphics, it is quite expensive to add even one new vehicle. 1941 would be a completely new game, vehicles, TOE, etc literally from scratch. The Normandy game seems to be developing Normandy to Battle of the Bulge so you might get Vistula–Oder Offensive.

My best bet for the three 'games' would be Bagration, Kursk (again initial work done for Italy would seem to indicate this - also sales wise this is a no brainer) and Stalingrad.

The latter one may be too early as the German forces would all have to be made again (PzIIIJs for instance) and different TOE for the Russians (and another T34 turret). So they may go for the Lvov-Sandomierz operation - southern terrain or an operation in between Kursk and Bagration (so using the German Italian graphics from 1943/4) so guess Korsun Pocket. They say the new games will come out quite rapidly, so this is my idea of what would be easy to produce. Once they have the basic Soviet line up post Kursk, the main variants would be the terrain and extra German units or they may add in some Allies for flavour - Lvov would allow some Hungarian units with a few new graphics for Turans, etc.

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However, even late war, the Soviets' ability to adjust indirect fire quickly and on the fly was limited. They simply lacked the radio net and trained officers to do so.

So there was usually a time gap between the end of the prep barrages and the actual assault. In CM terms, this means that the really heavy Soviet steel rain would have already fallen by the time the CM scenario starts, and would be better represented in the game by on-map damage (craters, etc.), and by the condition of German forces at scenario start (reduced head counts, units beginning the battle fatigued, etc.).

I have never held to this view. Soviet manuals and personal accounts are quite clear that Soviet Infantry followed up right behind the main bombardment often as close as 50m behind it so that the assault of German trenches took place immediately the bombardment lifted. Tanks left their start point to arrive on the front line trench at the same time that the fire lifted. Also the Red Army may have had inflexible artillery sticking to a plan but most of their assaults followed a CREEPING barrage. It is modelling this that is the challenge for Battlefront, especially for the opening hour of Bagration.

But I seriously doubt if we will get this as it was needed for the British in Normandy and did not appear.

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CREEPING barrage. It is modelling this that is the challenge for Battlefront...

Wrong.

I seriously doubt if we will get this as it was needed for the British in Normandy and did not appear.

That's pure lack of the use of the available tools. A creeping barrage can easily be arranged if there are enough shells and some TRPs, or even just an FO with good, deep LOS, though TRPs would be more like the use of a preplanned barrage.

Consider, though, how many QB points (I don't mean just in QBs, but as a measure of the "weight of metal" each side can throw at a given battle/scenario) it would take to get sufficient duration of sufficient calibre bombardment to walk a (series of) linear mission(s) as wide as the map down the length of the map. You'd probably want at least 4-6 batteries of 150, firing light 2-tube linear missions, with a "Maximum" mission length (gets you about 45 minutes fire) plus a TRP for every hundred metre of travel after the barrage begins to fall per 100m of frontage, .

To make any scenario with that sort of volume of explody rain any fun at all for the defender, you'd have to give them a ****-pot full of troops, in order for them to have any chance at all of repelling the Ivans following up, because most of them would be gone or broken by the time the barrage passed. Or BFC have to design and implement strong underground bunkers, and you give the defenders as many points of those as you give the attackers artillery. You would "constrain" the Russian arty user into using all this arty in some sort of preplanned mission by having embarassingly long call times for that sort of calibre, so the only effective use is as preplanned missions, and even the creeping of the barrage has to be planned because it takes so long to readjust, and addressing point targets instead of sticking with the plan becomes largely impractical.

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IIRC BFC has already said that the Bagration game will cover from mid-44 to the end of the war (including modules), the next one (with modules) from mid-43 to mid-44, and then (again, counting modules) mid-42 to mid-43. Not sure if they've said anything about 41 yet, but that would be the logical next one.

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