Interesting documentary about the war

[John Kettler]

Anyone with any interest in Spetsnaz or, more broadly, SpecOps should find the David Fortier interview with Andrei the ex-Spetsnaz quite the compelling read--from SNIPER'S PARADISE magazine.

http://forumdefesa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5962

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

Here's a great thread on the subject of Russians in Vietnam during the Vietnam War. Had lots of goodies I knew nothing about.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49353

Would you believe 3000 Russians in Vietnam? Unfortunately, there's nothing on Spetsnaz ops there, nor would there be.

http://rt.com/news/ussr-secret-vietnam-soldiers-speak-out/

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

and its all interesting. but theres no evidence whatsoever they were ever used in the South. and it'd make no sense that the Russians would risk their troop's capture by sending them in with dragunovs.

So I still dont think there were Russians in a combat role or otherwise in the RVN. the DRV? definitely. theres proof.

[IMHO]

I don't know whether or not you realize it, but the Russians put a lot of highly classified kit into the field in Afghanistan for combat evaluation, including biotoxins, body armor, the AK-74 and its "poison bullet," flechette munitions, Blue-X incapacitant, Makarov silenced pistol, Vasilek automatic mortar, AGS-17 Plamya automatic grenade launcher, PFM-1 butterfly mine, BM-27 MRL and even a HEL (High Energy Laser), seen here and reportedly the best way to clear a field of fire ever.

Biotoxins in Afghanistan... HEL... 8-0 Say, 10'000'000 USD per kill to target poor Kalashnikov-wielding peasants... Now I know why Soviet Union's budget exploded

No offence intended!

[John Kettler]

IMHO,

Back in my aerospace days, a wise analyst with spook connections once told me the winner of the Cold War would be the superpower whose economy didn't crack first. We won. Barely. I think the HEL was there less to kill Muj than it was for field trials in a most demanding operational environment. I heard it was wonderful for clearing fields of fire. Fast. Of course, this made it--the world's most expensive brush cutter!

Regards,

John Kettler

[IMHO]

IMHO,

Back in my aerospace days, a wise analyst with spook connections once told me the winner of the Cold War would be the superpower whose economy didn't crack first. We won. Barely. I think the HEL was there less to kill Muj than it was for field trials in a most demanding operational environment. I heard it was wonderful for clearing fields of fire. Fast. Of course, this made it--the world's most expensive brush cutter!

Regards,

John Kettler

I can only envy the spookiness of your connections as HEL could not be there. Just because there was no such thing as Soviet HEL. Flying testbeds were built but a HEL technology that could fit both weight limits and desired energy output simply didn't materialise. And no sane person could send these testbeds to Afghanistan for "field trials". To spend millions to build the things just to loose them to a peasant with a Stinger sitting on a mountain around Bagram. Very wise decision.

[LukeFF]

Back in my aerospace days, a wise analyst with spook connections once told me the winner of the Cold War would be the superpower whose economy didn't crack first.

Right, because anyone in the real world couldn't have seen that coming and made the same conclusion.

[John Kettler]

LukeFF,

I was told this long before Russia showed any perceptible sign of falling apart; when the superpowers were going flat out in the struggle for global supremacy, and around the time Hughes Aircraft Company was reeling from the Richard Bell case (recruited by the Sluzhba--Polish KGB equivalent). The obvious often isn't before it manifests outwardly.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

IMHO,

Those DIA paintings are declassified SECRET/NOFORN/WNINTEL or higher. Because of this, there was practically a war in the Intelligence Community over releasing the painting of the huge Typhoon SSBN in the first Soviet Military Power.

No HEL, eh? See Russian HEL here.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-DEW-HEL-Analysis.html#mozTocId345541

I'd further point out, this is one publicly seen. In practice, the Russians were extremely adept at hiding things from us. It was called the bathtub. Why? That's what our knowledge curve looked like. First would come rumblings of some desired path, always couched in terms of what foreign military experts say/believe and so on, then something might be seen and recorded by various means on the test range, only to pretty much vanish from sight as the weapon went into production, was secretly introduced into service, was tightly secured during its service life, then quietly removed from service and replaced (see Suvorov, INSIDE THE SOVIET ARMY for details). Only then could it be exported. That's the upward curve of the other end of the tub. So, if Almaz-Antey has a HEL in development which is being publicly reported, you can fully expect a) other design bureaus have their own and that or something similar has likely long been in service.

47 seconds of video which might open your eyes as to the reality of Soviet/Russian HEL.

http://clip.suabnag.com/?w=KG63Bsb5Hqs

1 minute of stills and renderings of tracked Soviet/Russian HELs.

http://clip.suabnag.com/?w=fKsWlT6ZcA8

High resolution color pics of one tracked HEL, B & Ws of a naval antiship missile killing HEL and other projects.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-multimedia/27285-secret-lasers-soviets.html

And this is another declassified DIA painting. This one's from 1987. Look a bit familiar?

http://www.dia.mil/history/military-art/1980s-series2/

Regards,

John Kettler

[Erwin]

Interesting to see what may be operational. I was working with an AF physicist in the late 90's who was involved in HEL development.

[IMHO]

IMHO,

Those DIA paintings are declassified SECRET/NOFORN/WNINTEL or higher. Because of this, there was practically a war in the Intelligence Community over releasing the painting of the huge Typhoon SSBN in the first Soviet Military Power.

No HEL, eh? See Russian HEL here.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-DEW-HEL-Analysis.html#mozTocId345541

I'd further point out, this is one publicly seen. In practice, the Russians were extremely adept at hiding things from us. It was called the bathtub. Why? That's what our knowledge curve looked like. First would come rumblings of some desired path, always couched in terms of what foreign military experts say/believe and so on, then something might be seen and recorded by various means on the test range, only to pretty much vanish from sight as the weapon went into production, was secretly introduced into service, was tightly secured during its service life, then quietly removed from service and replaced (see Suvorov, INSIDE THE SOVIET ARMY for details). Only then could it be exported. That's the upward curve of the other end of the tub. So, if Almaz-Antey has a HEL in development which is being publicly reported, you can fully expect a) other design bureaus have their own and that or something similar has likely long been in service.

47 seconds of video which might open your eyes as to the reality of Soviet/Russian HEL.

http://clip.suabnag.com/?w=KG63Bsb5Hqs

1 minute of stills and renderings of tracked Soviet/Russian HELs.

http://clip.suabnag.com/?w=fKsWlT6ZcA8

High resolution color pics of one tracked HEL, B & Ws of a naval antiship missile killing HEL and other projects.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-multimedia/27285-secret-lasers-soviets.html

And this is another declassified DIA painting. This one's from 1987. Look a bit familiar?

http://www.dia.mil/history/military-art/1980s-series2/

Regards,

John Kettler

John,

I said "There was no such thing as Soviet HEL". And you somehow miraculously convert it into "Russian HEL" So...

1. Msta-based thing is an experimental device meant for blinding optical sensors. Not high energy enough to be what DoD calls a HEL I guess.

2. MAZ-based laser pictured here is dated to something around 2010. About 20-25 years late to see one in Afghanistan.

3. And even for MAZ thing we're still waiting anxiously for a) adaptive optics, enough energy output to shoot down something not made of wood at a decent range.

PS

1. DIA must have been outsourcing its sketches to Hollywood

2. The logic that if Russia has shown a thing now then Soviet Union must have had even better one 25 years ago is hard to beat

3. As far as I understand Almaz-Antey is the only one that's doing HEL development. Talking multiple HEL programs for a country that is not able to produce MRAPs or enough tank upgrade kits...

[John Kettler]

IMHO,

When I was in military aerospace, we generally called them Russians, sometimes Russkies, but seldom Soviets. "Russian HEL" was the term Air Power Australia Editor-in-Chief Carlo Kopp used.

http://www.ausairpower.net/editor.html

I saw no real reason to change it. Properly speaking, the term "Soviet" would've been used during the Cold War in threat documents and reports. Thus, When DOD wanted to put the word out on the Russian threat, it emerged as "Soviet Military Power."

Now, to the meat of the problem. What output power levels define a HEL? From Angell, NDU Press, "High-Energy Laser Weapons" (Fair Use)

"High-energy Laser Weapons

First, it is important to understand what a HEL is. Current military HELs are generally defined as having laser power greater than 1 kilowatt (kW). However, most HELs being developed and tested for military application have laser powers ranging from tens of kilowatts to 100 kilowatts for tactical-level employment and up to multi-megawatts for strategic-class application.1 A powerful laser pointer that emits less than 1 watt can cause permanent eye damage in less than 1 second, while average power outputs of 300 watts to 1 kilowatt are commonly used for industrial laser cutting.2 In comparison, these examples are far below the laser power output measurements of military HELs currently being tested.

This illustrates the remarkable potential impact for damage and harm by a HEL. Another common measurement to classify a HEL is the emission of a single pulse of energy exceeding 30 kilojoules. To qualify this measurement, just 0.2–0.4 joules per square centimeter (cm2) over 10 nanoseconds can burn skin, and just 10 kilojoules/ cm2 in 0.2 seconds could result in damage to the structure of an aircraft or missile without armor.3 Other qualifiers can be used to classify different types of HELs, but the aforementioned power and energy parameters are two key measurements used to distinguish HELs from low-energy lasers.

With these high-power emissions and pulse energies, HELs will achieve extraordinary thermal effects on a target within seconds of initial engagement. Most likely, the optimal engagement time for achieved effects will be between 2 and 4 seconds. In some cases, HELs may only need to engage targets for less than a second to achieve desired effects. Even with these short engagement times, HELs can:

induce an “explosive reaction of the high explosive” contained within.4 Targets containing high explosives heated beyond the auto-ignition point, or fuel heated greater than the flash point, will be swiftly destroyed.

perforate a critical surface (a fragile aircraft wing, hull of a watercraft, or even the tire of a vehicle), resulting in disruption or prevention of critical capabilities of a targeted threat

ignite a critical surface or component (resulting in temporary distraction, at a minimum)

disrupt the optics or control systems of a threat by temporarily or permanently blocking a sensor from operating or even blinding an operator.5

Notes

1.Major Billy Short, Office of Naval Research, email correspondence to author, December 9, 2011.

2.Industrial Laser Systems, LLC, Laser Cutting Services and Systems, “Important Laser Information,” available at <www.laser-industrial.com/ pweld3.htm>.

3.Bengt Anderberg, Laser Weapons: The Dawn of a New Military Age (New York: Plenum Publishing, 1992), 93.

4.J. Thomas Schriempf and Brian Hankla, “Navy HEL Lethality Program,” lecture given at the High Energy Laser Joint Technology Office Directed Energy Professional Society Annual Review, Albuquerque, NM, May 5, 2010.

5.United Nations, Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May Be Deemed to Be Excessively Injurious or to Have Indiscriminate Effects, Protocol IV on Blinding Laser Weapons, Article 1, negotiated and adopted in Vienna, October 13, 1995, says, “It is prohibited to employ laser weapons specifically designed, as their sole combat function or as one of their combat functions, to cause permanent blindness to unenhanced vision, that is to the naked eye or to the eye with corrective eyesight devices. The High Contracting Parties shall not transfer such weapons to any State or non-State entity.”

Referring back to the 1985 declassified DIA painting of a Soviet HEL in Afghanistan, the caption for this painting

http://www.dia.mil/history/military-art/1980s-series2/

reads as follows:

"Soviet Mobile Laser in Afghanistan

by Edward L. Cooper, 1985

The Soviets continued a large, well-funded program to develop tactical laser weapons in the 1980s. There were reports that the USSR employed mobile laser platforms in Afghanistan against personnel, unprotected targets, and sensors."

The reports I got on Soviet lasers in Afghanistan came in two forms: blinding incidents and evidence of a least one HEL there. An antisensor/blinding laser in no way requires power output sufficient to clear fields of fire. The ruby lasers of tank rangefinders more than suffice for screwing up optics and eyeballs alike. This is why the T-80 has a special window in the hatch through which the TC can observe the battle and not be blinded by such threats. The latter is exactly what one report I was given orally said. We found the HEL via satellite, because one Soviet firebase had a cookie cutter clearing of its fields of fire. Manual clearing methods yield an entirely different appearance.

People died to obtain so much as a single still of systems such as these, for that matter, a T-80!

Several Soviet/Russian tactical HELs

Here is a most revelatory article. According to it, several Soviet laser tanks entered service before the mid 1980s.

https://sites.google.com/site/tankslaser/laser-tanks-ussr

1K11 Stiletto entered service in 1982; SLK "Sanguine" entered service in 1983.

Lasers with apertures of this size are, by definition, weapon grade lasers. For verification, please see the Naval Laser Weapon System vid here.

In it, you'll see lethal firing tests of same and will be able to determine the size of the main laser optics by the man immediately behind the apparatus. Now, consider the Soviets put two different tracked HELs into the field over two decades before this test occurred!

For reference, the U.S. put a self-contained 15-20 KW carbon dioxide laser on an LTVP-7 in the mid 1970s and downed aircraft and helicopters with it. JED= JOURNAL of ELECTRONIC DEFENSE, a highly respected publication.

http://jedsite.info/fulltrack-lima/lima/lvtp-7_series/mtu/mtu.html

Soviet Military Power 1986 had this to say about the scope and scale of Soviet laser work. The statement appeared under ABM Research.

"The USSR's laser program is much larger than US efforts and involves over 10,000 scientists and engineers and more than a half dozen major research and development facilities and test ranges. Much of this research takes place at the Sary Shagan Missile Test Center where the Soviets also conduct traditional ABM research. Facilities there are estimated to have several lasers for air defense, lasers capable of damaging some components of satellites in orbit, and a laser that could be used in feasibility testing for ballistic missile defense applications. A laser weapons program of the magnitude of the Soviet Union's effort would cost roughly $1 billion per year in the United States."

For grins and giggles, I pulled up these FOIA releases from the CIA.

The heavily redacted Soviet Tactical Laser Weapons. When published in 1987, it was SECRET/NOFORN/NOCONTRACT

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000220285/DOC_0000220285.pdf

Soviet Battlefield Lasers: Emerging Threat of Blinding and Antisensor Weapons, with security restrictions galore and the entire section on Soviet employment of them in Afghanistan redacted.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000500257/DOC_0000500257.pdf

An even earlier CIA pub, Soviet Battlefield Lasers, lists 20+ carbon dioxide lasers alone in the 1-40 KW average output range.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000262140/DOC_0000262140.pdf

These fall squarely within the prior definition of a HEL and also within the output of the known to be successful U.S. HEL testbed MTU of the mid 1970s.

Given the sum of the above, I feel no qualms whatsoever in stating the Soviets had one or more self-contained, tracked HEL, in service, during the Soviet-Afghan War. Then highly classified back channel data gave clearcut (no pun intended) evidence of the presence of and use of at least one such system in Afghanistan.

This has been most interesting and educational for me, so thanks for challenging me. Not only have I learned much, but others are interested in what I've turned up.

Regards,

John Kettler

[IMHO]

IMHO,

Given the sum of the above, I feel no qualms whatsoever in stating the Soviets had one or more self-contained, tracked HEL, in service, during the Soviet-Afghan War. Then highly classified back channel data gave clearcut (no pun intended) evidence of the presence of and use of at least one such system in Afghanistan.

1. If we define HEL as you put here rather than HELs that can actually shoot down something then I agree with you as per availability of tracked HELs to Soviet Union.

2. Episodes of blindness were most probably caused by lasing with target illumination lasers. Back then Soviet Union had less precise lasing sensors so illumination lasers were much more powerful. There were multiple episodes of retina damage in the Soviet Army itself.

3. Having such HELs in Afghanistan seems to me highly unlikely because:

-Depending on the model only one or two pieces were built at a tremendous costs. As Afghanistan war was a real war after all loosing the HEL was a real possibility. And since they used solid state lasers the process of growing artificial crystals for them took years. So it would have put put the whole program years behind - too much risk.

-All the devices you mentioned were meant not to shoot down anything but to damage advanced optics/targeting. To put it simply you CANNOT EVEN TARGET the main laser if you don't have proper returns from the enemy optics for the targeting laser illumination. And Mujaheddins had no modern tanks, no helicopters, no planes - nothing to test against.

-To properly test the devices you need to measure optical parameters at the test target - dwell time, energy output, dissipation. Plus you need very experienced technicians to perform the tests. And again you gonna be putting all these scarce human resources and equipment to the dangers of real war.

If the field trials for the HELs were so easy to do we must be having DoD testing its HELs in Afghanistan and Iraq. Heard anything about it?

[John Kettler]

IMHO,

How I enjoy a rational discussion!

1. The U.S. battlefield laser testbed MTU had 30 KW output and downed target drones and helicopter targets out to 900 meters. That's a HEL in my book. Such a weapon would wreak havoc on optics, TV and FLIR systems.

2. The Soviet laser DAK-1 (ASCC designation SAGE GLOSS) is a laser rangefinder for artillery, operating, I believe, at 1.06 microns. It's most definitely an eye hazard of considerable magnitude. If it's the same as some on private offer, this thing works out to 12 milles/20 km. Such devices would be deployed as low as battalion level, either on tripods or in the AVRV (Armored Command Reconnaissance Vehicle), as well as higher level recon assets.

3.While I follow your argument against using HEL in Afghanistan, in practice, we do much the same. Panama, for example, was the combat debut of the F-117 Nighthawk. Panama, based on reports made through the Red Cross, testimony of eyewitnesses, accounts given to me trusted friends and more, saw the testing of both manpack and helicopter borne lasers. In one report, the woman described a brilliant light which came in through her kitchen window and set her refrigerator on fire! The manpack laser equipped soldiers were described as looking a lot like RoboCop. We also had a volunteered statement from a U.S. soldier who was there that we used chemical weapons.

The U.S. was all set to use the Bradley mounted AN/VLQ-7 Stingray in the Gulf War, but held off. Elsewhere, the ultimate decision to not use it in the Gulf War was reported to be for humanitarian reasons.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stingray.htm

The U.S. flew the hellishly expensive, Top Secret+ OXCART right over North Vietnam and North Korea, under SA-2 fire at times. Don't believe me. Read the declassified Top Secret Codeword report for yourself.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001472531/DOC_0001472531.pdf

The fundamental point is that the U.S. has done the functional equivalent of a Russian HEL in Afghanistan--and then some. When the high profile F-117 attack hit Baghdad, we exposed aircraft which then cost 57 million a copy to downing from concentrated AAA fire, whose cost per round in some cases amounted to a few bucks. Similarly, the first TOW kills were obtained from two developmental Huey versions crash shipped to South Vietnam and used in a high AAA and MANPADS environment at An Loc, South Vietnam.

Please start watching at ~3:20 on the vid.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=433_1240876982

If that's not risking enough sensitive goodies for you, Dad sent the cream of the Air Force's F-4 crews into battle over the DMZ, in a PAVEFIRE III (laser/TV targeting pod to locate and designate hostile optical fire control threats) equipped aircraft, with the specific objective of finding and destroying North Vietnamese S-60 batteries. So sensitive was this aircraft that it had not only MiG protection, but a special flight armed with unfinned napalm. Instructions were terse. If the PAVEFIRE III plane goes down, incinerate plane AND crew!

Given the above, I see no fundamental reason the Soviets wouldn't have combat trialed a HEL in Afghanistan. It, after all, was next door, more than could be said of Vietnam, Panama, Iraq and North Korea.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

Kettler, though Im not claiming the soldier said it, it should be noted that any US government agency, whether police, corrections, or military would even define teargas as chemical weapons. The woman with fridge story doesn't sound credible

where's that from?

Also one soldier 'volunteering' information doesn't prove anything to me. I find the whole US soldier robocops running around thing far fetched. Though yes it is a known fact we used the F117 there.

I also have to point out, if you think the US government in 1969 was faking moon landings, why would you believe any declassified reports by them and use them as evidence?

All that being said, I'm not claiming the Soviets used or did not use lasers in Afghanistan. But I find the whole thing far fetched and if they did I really doubt they were anything near common at all.

[Vanir Ausf B]

If Kettler is claiming that soldiers were running around in 1989 with man-portable lasers powerful enough to destroy objects he is peddling some serious bull****. Such weapons are still in the concept stage today.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/04/plasma_pulse_la/

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

Chemical weapons can indeed be defined to include tear gas. The Soviets roundly condemned us over its military use in Vietnam. I believe they also so defined napalm. Made for excellent propaganda.

The refrigerator story was translated from a Spanish account by a survivor of the attack which the various international relief organizations figure killed 3000-4000 Panamanians. My memory's hazy, but the woman to whom this happened may've been interviewed for "The Panama Deception." If not, for sure it was in a book, and the passage was translated for me. I knew enough Spanish to be able to determine the gist of the account without resort to the translator. I found the account credible because the narrative was simple and straightforward. The choice of words indicated she had no technological background at all, so there was no way to shade the truth. The statement was wholly consistent with a laser, and I couldn't come up with any other reasonable explanation.

The soldier who volunteered the information went, as I recollect, right up to Director and Co-Producer Barbara Trent after one of the showings and unburdened himself to her.

The manpack laser story came through longtime friends, who knew someone who was there. They were blown away by the information, practically gobsmacked, in fact.

It's a known fact to some that the F-117 debuted in Panama, but the carefully crafted popular perception is that the F-117 triumphantly debuted in Desert Storm. Any number of aviation and military documentaries so present the story. But then, it's much more dramatic and exciting than either giant stun grenades (2000 lb. bombs deliberately dropped well away from the Rio Hato barracks) or outright, embarrassing misses, misses occasioned by weapon targeting problems in the extremely high Panamanian humidity.

Since people persist in distorting the Moon landing issue, let me just say that the evidence supports the following scenario: The U.S., with national prestige on the line and risky technology involved, prepared backup "proof of success" in case something went wrong. There are photos out there which unambiguously reveal such trickery. A favorite of a friend of mine who's an expert retoucher and PhotoShop pro is the "incredible relocating Lunar Lander." Somehow, though not changing in side or angle viewed, the Lander is visibly displaced relative to the mountains behind it! I will also tell you the evidence supports some sort of "aided" trip to the Moon, a hybrid of the official means of record, plus some still exceedingly sensitive, undefined other tech. If you read my blog, say, the SEAL Team 6 piece, you'll quickly see I've got phenomenal contacts, but even they don't want to touch this issue. Not sure why.

When the Soviets went into Afghanistan, they brought in their primary land warfare weapons, to include artillery, and with that artillery came the target location and ranging means, of which the first was the DAK-1 SAGE GLOSS. Am working on finding the details.

OK. Got it. There are 4 x SAGE GLOSS per Soviet Artillery Battalion. Source is FM 100-2-3 The Soviet Army: Troops, Organization and Equipment, page 4-16.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45094375/FM-100-2-3-the-Soviet-Army-Troops-Organization-And-Equipment

Vanir Ausf B,

Found out about these Soviet laser pistols moments ago, but they are certainly attention getting. The one that looks like a semiautomatic pistol was invented in 1986.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol

2003 contract award for a manportable laser. If this is a publicly reported award, where might the black programs have been long since?

http://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/317810

I'm continuing to look into this backpack laser in Panama story. I didn't have the opportunity to interview the person who told my friends of seeing soldiers with such lasers during Operation Just Cause. I reported the information as I got it.

Unless you're possessed of some extraordinary clearances, how can you say, with any confidence at all, that what's publicly reported reflects anything like our true technology and capabilities?

This piece on the development and deployment of the F-117 may give you pause.

http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/man/uswpns/air/attack/f117a.html

(Fair Use)

"The first F-117A was delivered in 1982, and the last delivery was in the summer of 1990. The F-117A production decision was made in 1978 with a contract awarded to Lockheed Advanced Development Projects, the "Skunk Works," in Burbank, Calif. The first flight was in 1981, only 31 months after the full-scale development decision. Lockheed-Martin delivered 59 stealth fighters to the Air Force between August 1982 and July 1990. Five additional test aircraft belong to the company.

Air Combat Command's only F-117A unit, the 4450th Tactical Group, achieved operational capability in October 1983. Since the F-117’s first Air Force flight in 1982, the aircraft has flown under different unit designations, including the 4450th Tactical Group and the 37th Tactical Fighter Wing at Tonapah Test Range, NV; the 57th Fighter Weapons Wing, Nellis AFB, NV; the 410th Flight Test Squadron/410th Test Squadron, Palmdale, CA; and Detachment 1, Test Evaluation Group, also at Holloman, which falls under the 53rd Wing, Eglin AFB, FL.

The stealth fighter emerged from the classified world while stationed at Tonapah Airfield with an announcement by the Pentagon in November 1988 and was first shown publicly at Nellis in April 1990. The 4450th TG was deactivated in October 1989, and was reactivated as the 37th Tactical Fighter Wing."

So, operational October 1983, not announced until 1988 and not seen publicly until April 1990. Thus, the F-117 had been operational for seven years when first used in combat. And all this came after extensive design, development and testing of the predecessor technology demonstrator aircraft HAVE BLUE. The whole thing was deep black, with pilots volunteering without having the faintest idea for what they were volunteering. This is but one set of black world programs. The Army has its own black programs.

I close with this quote, something for you to ponder, from Ben Rich, Kelly Johnson's successor as head of the deep black Lockheed, later Lockheed-Martin, Skunk Works.

http://theredpillguide.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/secret-space-program-richard-dolan-discourse/

(Fair Use)

Another thought-provoking statement discussed by Mr. Dolan was the one carried out by Clark McClelland regarding what Ben Rich stated to him:

“I worked at Cape Canaveral and the Kennedy Space Center from 1958 to 1992.

There are many mysteries that have been discovered during the years that we have been exploring the moon, sun and planets.

The former CEO of Lockheed Skunk Works, [sR-71, Stealth Fighter, etc.] was visiting the Cape many years ago. I asked him a question. Ben Rich said, ‘Clark, Black Budget money has taken the USA Military at least 50+ years beyond the present understanding of the general public and how far we are technologically advanced.”

Regards,

John Kettler

[IMHO]

IMHO,

How I enjoy a rational discussion!

1. The U.S. battlefield laser testbed MTU had 30 KW output and downed target drones and helicopter targets out to 900 meters. That's a HEL in my book. Such a weapon would wreak havoc on optics, TV and FLIR systems.

2. The Soviet laser DAK-1 (ASCC designation SAGE GLOSS) is a laser rangefinder for artillery, operating, I believe, at 1.06 microns. It's most definitely an eye hazard of considerable magnitude. If it's the same as some on private offer, this thing works out to 12 milles/20 km. Such devices would be deployed as low as battalion level, either on tripods or in the AVRV (Armored Command Reconnaissance Vehicle), as well as higher level recon assets.

3.While I follow your argument against using HEL in Afghanistan, in practice, we do much the same. Panama, for example, was the combat debut of the F-117 Nighthawk. Panama, based on reports made through the Red Cross, testimony of eyewitnesses, accounts given to me trusted friends and more, saw the testing of both manpack and helicopter borne lasers. In one report, the woman described a brilliant light which came in through her kitchen window and set her refrigerator on fire! The manpack laser equipped soldiers were described as looking a lot like RoboCop. We also had a volunteered statement from a U.S. soldier who was there that we used chemical weapons.

The U.S. was all set to use the Bradley mounted AN/VLQ-7 Stingray in the Gulf War, but held off. Elsewhere, the ultimate decision to not use it in the Gulf War was reported to be for humanitarian reasons.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stingray.htm

The U.S. flew the hellishly expensive, Top Secret+ OXCART right over North Vietnam and North Korea, under SA-2 fire at times. Don't believe me. Read the declassified Top Secret Codeword report for yourself.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001472531/DOC_0001472531.pdf

The fundamental point is that the U.S. has done the functional equivalent of a Russian HEL in Afghanistan--and then some. When the high profile F-117 attack hit Baghdad, we exposed aircraft which then cost 57 million a copy to downing from concentrated AAA fire, whose cost per round in some cases amounted to a few bucks. Similarly, the first TOW kills were obtained from two developmental Huey versions crash shipped to South Vietnam and used in a high AAA and MANPADS environment at An Loc, South Vietnam.

Please start watching at ~3:20 on the vid.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=433_1240876982

If that's not risking enough sensitive goodies for you, Dad sent the cream of the Air Force's F-4 crews into battle over the DMZ, in a PAVEFIRE III (laser/TV targeting pod to locate and designate hostile optical fire control threats) equipped aircraft, with the specific objective of finding and destroying North Vietnamese S-60 batteries. So sensitive was this aircraft that it had not only MiG protection, but a special flight armed with unfinned napalm. Instructions were terse. If the PAVEFIRE III plane goes down, incinerate plane AND crew!

Given the above, I see no fundamental reason the Soviets wouldn't have combat trialed a HEL in Afghanistan. It, after all, was next door, more than could be said of Vietnam, Panama, Iraq and North Korea.

Regards,

John Kettler

1. As we come to HEL as being a question of terminology I believe we all agree to what was available and in what quantities to Soviet military. On the sidelines I'd say it's doubtful 30kW can down real life drones and missiles at real life ranges and weather conditions (900m being an unrealistic range - calculate the number of systems / costs to cover any sensible front-line). Simple argument is that DoD had to go up to 150kW for MTHEL for some reason. I'd guess if 30kW were enough they'd stay with that target.

2. Covered and agreed.

3.

-"...woman described a brilliant light which came in through her kitchen window and set her refrigerator on fire" seems to me a rather questionable source.

-As far as I know man portable lasers with enough energy output / impulse time to down anything sensible cannot be built at the current level of technology. Man portable means relatively small solid state. AFAIK The current solid state lasers of that size are not capable of that.

-Humanitarian reasons for not using Stingray seem strange as well. To choose killing over a risk of blinding for the sake of humanity is a doubtful argument. Especially taking into account that you don't necessarily blind the person who's using targeting equipment. May the problems be more about the dust and the costs or system readiness?

-For my personal taste comparing A-12 and F-117 with Soviet optical suppression systems is not quite right. You compare one off unique experimental systems that would have taken years to rebuilt in Soviet case with a fully operational capability systems that had negligible chances to be destroyed. The proper comparison would be the deployment of MTHEL in Iraq or Afghanistan in the real war zones.

Finally, I believe we'd better wrap up or limit the discussion as it more and more goes over into the territory of beliefs rather than hard facts

[Vanir Ausf B]

Vanir Ausf B,

Found out about these Soviet laser pistols moments ago, but they are certainly attention getting. The one that looks like a semiautomatic pistol was invented in 1986.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_laser_pistol

You have got to be the most gullible person I have ever come across. You do realize this is some kind of joke, right?

If you follow the link the entry used as a source it says this:

I have come across this article in several forms in the last few days. I get a chuckle out of it when I see it.

You gotta love the description of this fearsome weapon: "The weapon was magazine fed and used pyrotechnic flashbulb technology to project its beam. Another example was a Laser revolver."

A laser revolver. So I guess those Cosmonaughts got 6 shots before they had to load more lazer beams.

"Flashbulb technology" LOL, sounds lethal!

2003 contract award for a manportable laser. If this is a publicly reported award, where might the black programs have been long since?

http://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/317810

"The preliminary designs of a small power solid state and chemical laser weapon system that can be eventually mass produced."

This appears to be a development contract, not a manufacturing contract. And it's from 2003, not the 1980s.

Unless you're possessed of some extraordinary clearances, how can you say, with any confidence at all, that what's publicly reported reflects anything like our true technology and capabilities?

The fact that you believe it is evidence enough for me that it isn't true.

[IMHO]

Gosh... I missed laser revolver. Gentlemen, if you excuse me I'd rather switch into read-only mode. But I promise I'll follow the thread - will be waiting for updates on laser revolvers and Robocop-looking soldiers.

[John Kettler]

Vanir Ausf B,

I didn't say it was fearsome. I did think it was worthy of a mention. Also, you clearly weren't paying attention to the most pertinent information in the Wiki, itself a stub, if that.

Designer Victor Samsonovich Sulakvelidze, General-Major, PhD, Professor (Project Leader)

Boris Nikolaevich Duvanov, PhD, Professor (technical and experimental research)

You've got a general-major, the Soviet equivalent of the U.S. brigadier general, a one star--a professor with a Ph.D. He's running the show. That alone should tell you something.

His chief technical person is someone who's a professor, also with a PH.D.

The last key person on the list is a captain and has a Ph.D.

Victor Vladimirovich Gorev, Captain (technical and experimental research)

Ludmila Igorevna Avakjanz.

Designed 1984

This is a serious military type project, using some heavy caliber people. If you understood lasers, you'd realize that the risible to you flashbulb technology is one way to pump a laser to get it to lase. A short, intense blast of photons can and will trigger a laser emission from, say, a ruby laser. Such technology would obviate the need for large bulky power sources. Thus, one shot= one laser pulse. I don't have any real technical data from which to work, but to me, it seems like a clever technical solution to a critical design problem.

This is a Google translation from the Russian and posted on Above Top Secret.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread669183/pg8

(Fair Use)

"LASER PISTOL with pyrotechnic flashlamps

In 70-ies. XX century. many countries, primarily the USSR and the U.S. were initiated work on the creation of laser systems of both the peaceful and military purposes.

Employees of the Military Academy of Strategic Rocket Forces (RVSN), now named after Peter the Great, completed development of individual self-defense laser weapons astronaut. Research group led by the head of department, Honored Scientist of the RSFSR, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Professor, Major-General Victor Samsonovich Sulakvelidze (1919 - 1984). Theoretical and experimental studies of the harmful effect of the laser gun worked Ph.D., Professor Boris Duvanov. Design of future weapons practiced researcher AV Simonov, in the trials included fellow LI Avakyants and Adjunct VV Gorev. Designers aimed to develop a laser gun, the weight and size did not differ from the army to fire counterpart.

In the first stage of the future authors of the present invention have found that for the decommissioning of sensitive elements of optical systems, the enemy need not too high energy radiation - within 1 - 10 J. This is because the eyes and lenses focus the beams, increasing the density of radiation in the hundreds and thousands times. Elements of any laser is an active medium, pump source and a resonator. To solve this problem required a compact source of optical pumping, hosted in the cavity of the cartridge holder.

The authors decided to use the development of disposable pyrotechnic flash lamp filled with oxygen and the metal in the form of foil or powder form. Set on fire by an electric spark, it burns for 5-10 ms at a temperature of about 5 thousand degrees C. (involuntarily reminded of the pyramid of the hyperboloid of Engineer Garin). In this case, all components must be non-toxic and not prone spontaneously detonate. To increase the pump energy, it was decided to use a zirconium foil instead of conventional magnesium, which is 3 times increased the specific light energy. Additive metal salts allowed to "adjust" the lamp radiation to the absorption spectrum of the active element.

All the experimental work carried out directly by the authors develop. The first home-made lamps were in the form of cones 1 cm in diameter, located inside the tungsten-rhenium filament coated with a paste for the ignition of combustible pyrotechnic mixture (zirconium in oxygen). Eight flash bulbs placed in a holder. After each "shot" spent light is thrown as a sleeve, and the next fed into an illumination chamber. Ability to dazzle and burn beam retains up to 20 m. Various modifications of the device can be used not only for self-defense, but also as a medical tool.

Work on the creation of individual laser weapons was devoted to educational and popular film "Dangerous beam, created at the studio of the Ministry of Defense. Currently, the laser gun is kept in the Museum of the Strategic Missile Forces Military Academy named after Peter the Great."

The RSVN (in my circles, Strategic Rocket Forces) had, arguably, the top priority for scientific & technical personnel in the Soviet Union. A military-technical project coming out of the RSVN Academy is, therefore, very much a big deal.

Manpack Laser Development Contract

As far as the contract goes, you missed the main point: If something potentially as high leverage as that is being openly developed, odds are it's already been done/is being done in the black world. Remember, Ben Rich said the black world tech was 50+ years ahead of technology as we understood it. Putting that into context, we'd have the first airplane in the white world (open source), the Wright Plane, but the black world would be flying Saber Jets!

You might be interested to know that the right hand man (Colonel, Retired, Philip Corso) for then head of Army R&D, General Trudeau, wrote a book in which he flat out said highly advanced, Roswell crash derived technologies, were seeded into American industry, to be patented and represented as home grown. My own sources have confirmed the basic scenario, and we have some science fiction level stuff flying derived from such technologies. One of the recovered technologies the Army got and specifically mentioned by Corso was lasers. The book is THE DAY AFTER ROSWELL.

AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY's William B. Scott wrote several blockbuster articles on black program aerospace development in ~1988-1990. Representative article link follows.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041213155300/http://www.holman.net/ufo/archives/mfiles/newfiles%20to%20sort%20and%20rename%20-%20sep98/paranet/a-12.art

One of them, after describing hypersonic strategic strike platforms and similar highly advanced weaponry, talked very obliquely about propulsion means of unknown and exotic nature which had been observed and were being studied by engineers at the magazine. The guy who wrote those articles said later at a MUFON conference these exotic propulsion systems apparently included antigravity (AKA field effect propulsion)!

I tell you this because, unless you can begin to comprehend even the possibility of such things, you'll never get anywhere in understanding what's doable these days. The Germans, for example, demonstrated a disintegration beam in 1944, making 75 rats disintegrate into an apparent gas, which was evidently absorbed by the test plate. Please see Farrell, REICH OF THE BLACK SUN, D. "Death Rays" at the link.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/reichblacksun/chapter13.htm

Cut to 1991. Something very much like this is used in combat, a use carefully hidden.

http://www.drboylan.com/xplanes2.html

(Fair Use)

"Another informant who wishes his identity kept private related operational details about military deployment of antigravity disc craft which sound like the X-22A. He reports: 'During operation Desert Storm a close relative of mine was in charge of a Marine Division right on the front. In the first days film footage and especially video-cams which a large number of G.I.s had were impounded, so they wouldn`t capture any sensitive material. Iraq was pumped up and Gung-Ho, since they had well over 50,000 troops ready to charge us, [and] since we only had about 3500 they knew of, and they knew [that], because of the close proximity of troops we couldn`t nuke them, so, they were assuming piece of cake . Wrong.

'Two pictures my relative confiscated from one of his officers showed: 1. a large disc-shaped craft slightly in front of our men with a high intensity beam of light emitting out of it; then, 2. where men, equipment, etc. was [had stood], there only remained dark charcoal-like spots on the desert floor. We have had this technology for quite a while.' The described disc was clearly an antigravity, levitating, aerial-weapons platform in the U.S. arsenal. Quite possibly it was the Lockheed X-22A two-man discoid craft, the real DarkStar, of which the unmanned drone X-22 DarkStar is but an aircraft 'cover' program to disguise the existence of this manned antigravity fighter disc, the X-22A.

Further, as 'Z' noted, the real manned discs come equipped with the latest Neutral Particle Beam weapons, which take apart the target at the molecular level."

My own sources have confirmed the basics of this story, and it is correct as to a disintegration weapon having been used, from a U.S. antigravity craft and regarding confiscation of all imagery and video.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wicky]

Citing and piggybacking looney tunes Richard Boylan, who also manufactures similar fantastic unverifiable stories, and other mysterious unnamed sources ("My own sources" = Ask Jeeves?AltaVista? Voices in your head?) doesn't lend you any credibility or make your fantastical tales any more believable.

And as for Farrell's laughable Nazis Black Holes with Panther Turrets or whatever that's been debunked so many times over the years I''ve lost count. Would you have you used any of the nonsense you feverishly believe in to bolster presentations when you were supposedly employed.

[Wicky]

Hopping back into my time machine to 2010 >

MMmmm Does this debunking of the Ludwikowice henge (Farrell, REICH OF THE BLACK SUN) remind you of your evidence of Cherbourg V2 silos

http://www.bielek-debunked.com/Henge/The-Henge.pdf

From the linked PDF:

There is a creeping process of turning speculations, rumours and claims into facts by quoting them over and over again.

Stay away from the Mulder-effect.

Gerold Schelm

November 2005

Why do you keep repeating the same garbage claims?

[Sublime]

I've gotta ask - what happened to the rational discussion? For one wikipedia is a useful tool but never should be cited as proof of anything. Anyone can create an article. Geez I was told that in my first year at community college let alone as an analyst in the defense industry.

Second, Kettler no offense but honestly, anyone I've ever met who talked about how tough they are wasn't tough. Anyone who talked about who cool they were wasn't cool. And anyone who talked about how great their sensitive contacts were didn't have them.

I must confess by the time I got to your second post, I gave up after the mention of black world/white world. Next thing you know you're going to be saying Obama is a reptilian overlord in disguise, sending black helicopters hither and yon, communicating with our alien overlords.

Can we talk about Afghanistan? please? Without laser revolvers?

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

I'm familiar with the counterarguments regarding the Henge. I by no means consider them dispositive, and to do so ignores both eyewitness testimony and the evidence of history, including that presented at the war crime trial in Poland for the SS general who executed 60 scientists to protect the secrets of the Bell.

I get you don't like this sort of thing, but some of us are having a rational discussion of military-technical issues, the technology base, the effects of security measures on perception, evaluating intel and more. I know you're capable of making a meaningful contribution to a discussion, but you've obviously come in here specifically to stir up more trouble. Disappointed I didn't bite over on John Kettler vs. "Cats Chasing Dogs" and need the stimulation you get from tormenting me?

Vanir Ausf B,

This should resolve any doubt regarding Soviet laser (not HEL) use in Afghanistan. Grau, "Artillery and Counterinsurgency: The Soviet Experience in Aghanistan," Foreign Military Studies Office

http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/arty/arty.htm#22a

"Once the Soviet leadership introduced the laser-guided "Smel'chak" [dare-devil] mortar round into Afghanistan, the massive 2S4 self-propelled 240mm mortar proved effective in destroying Mujahideen strongpoints and fortifications located in caves and terrain folds that howitzers could not hit. In June 1985, Senior Lieutenant A. Beletskiy employed his 2S4 battery against a Mujahideen stronghold that artillery could not engage. The stronghold was located near the Pandshir valley and garrisoned by Mujahideen of Ahmed Shah Masood. Lt. Beletskiy used a laser range finder to determine that the distance from the target was 2350 meters. He then fired a conventional HE round spotting round--evidently to establish the PGM footprint. He adjusted his firing data and then fired a ground laser-guided "Smel'chak" round. It hit the target exactly. The 2S4 battery destroyed the Mujahideen stronghold with just twelve rounds.22

21. Viktor Litvinenko, "Novo to, chto khorosho zabyto" [What is completely forgotten is brand new], Armeiskiy sbornik [Army digest], September 1996, 46. Colonel Litvinenko commanded an artillery regiment and was the chief of the 201st Motorized Rifle Division artillery during 1984-1986 in Afghanistan.BACK

22. Ibid.BACK

The above is, in my view, dispositive on the issue of laser use in Afghanistan. Just in case...

JANE's link re Smel'chak.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes-Ammunition-Handbook/240-mm-3F5-Smel-chak-guided-projectile-Russian-Federation.html

Smel'chak for the Russian Arms Export Catalog

http://warfare.ru/db/catid/254/linkid/1589/title/smelchak/

Regards,

John Kettler