Scenario: KG Himmelfahrt

[Pandur]

Hi there, i have a little something here i made for myself but after several games i decided why not upload. last map i tried to make for CMBN was to big and to many troops, it did not work out, but little later i found this beauty.

credits for the map go to sburke! i just touched it up a little.

its uploaded in the repository but its no approved yet, i add the link when its through.

its a fictional axis late war attack, huge map, roughly one battalion per side plus some little extras, starts early morning at 0545 and drags on to daylight in late morning hours(280 turns/minutes).

what else to say, there isnt much fictional story behind it, i am not good at this, just a massive battle and some war weariness as background.

beware; the scenario is a major commitment(more so then Red Stream for CMSF was) and you need some endurance and patience, dont shy away from managing a battalion in the attack, over great distances. force balance is very tight for the axis/attacker, if you manage a win your troops will surely be done with.

if this is ok for you, you will be rewarded with some special feel and flavor none of the small maps can provide.

play tested in WEGO, elite. realtime wont work i guess.

blah blah blah...anyways here is the map in editor view and since the map is to big to make a reasonable screenshot with details on it i just have some scenic image shot in the mid section of the map.

by the way, no bocage on the map, i cant stand bocage anymore.

[permanent666]

i see this must be upper austria

[War RaVeN]

Looks SUPER!

[sburke]

Wow thanks Pandur, you have no idea how happy I am to see someone get use out of that.

[Apocal]

Motherofgod.jpg

[Pandur]

i can not edit the main post anymore, i have to add the playtest was WEGO Iron, i keep calling iron elite as iron was not in CMSF.

anyways, i thought the process in the repository is automated, this takes ages and i wonder if something is wrong.

i see this must be upper austria

could be by the looks but its in hüttgen forest in germany as far as i know.

Wow thanks Pandur, you have no idea how happy I am to see someone get use out of that.

there is lots of time invested in such maps and as i failed with my last try for CMBN, it was a slideshow in the setup zone already, i did browse the repository a bit in the map section and after i saw this one i had to do something with it, it was just to good to be left there just like that. to have decent FPS the map can not take more then a battalion plus some toys per side but with lots of open this is enough to defend this map very well.

i upload in GaJ cmmods for now, i totally forgot about that.

its up at GaJ´s CMMODS

http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/4739/details

[sburke]

could be by the looks but its in hüttgen forest in germany as far as i know.

there is lots of time invested in such maps and as i failed with my last try for CMBN, it was a slideshow in the setup zone already, i did browse the repository a bit in the map section and after i saw this one i had to do something with it, it was just to good to be left there just like that. to have decent FPS the map can not take more then a battalion plus some toys per side but with lots of open this is enough to defend this map very well.

i upload in GaJ cmmods for now, i totally forgot about that.

its up at GaJ´s CMMODS

http://cmmods.greenasjade.net/mods/4739/details

The map is based on The Gamers Tactical Combat Series map of Schmidt in the Huertgen forest. The full game map includes Vossenack, but to get that on to a CM map I'd have had to alter the scale which would then alter weapons effectiveness proportionally. That might have still made an excellent map, but I was trying to work with an idea of using the Gamers Op sheet planning forms as an OP layer to determine unit plans and reinforcements for a 2 day mini campaign. As it is the map included the Kall crossing, Schmidt and the surrounding areas. I am working a similar map/idea for the Screaming Eagles TCS game but have decided to wait until CMBN is upgraded to version 2 as map making is so much easier.

Pandur some other maps you may be interested in are:

Broadswords XIX corps map. It needs detail added, but the topology is great and the road network is in. I have been messing around with a version of this to be a fictional area of Lorraine.

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=1438

or Pete's 2x2k map. Pete's maps are always really well done.

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=1921

And there are probably a dozen more

One bit of good news is I expect when we do have CMBN version 2, this map will show an improvement in FPS.

[Pandur]

The full game map includes Vossenack, but to get that on to a CM map I'd have had to alter the scale which would then alter weapons effectiveness proportionally. That might have still made an excellent map,

well i see it like this, weapon effectiveness can not be "altered", if the target is out of effective range its not the map designers fault but the players

with that i mean that the gamer should know the effective range of his assets and position accordingly, out of range is relative in this way.

about the size, i dont like it to be true but there is a soft(depending on hardware ) upper limit for map size that is below the 4km x 4km maximum if you want reasonable vegetation/elevations and force on it. 4x4 rolling sand dunes map for tank battles would work nicely but thats about it. i try to push the maximum size in maps/battles i create as far as possible but you can just go so far before it gets to much.

at that point even i have to say better have a "small" huge map and decent FPS then having a "huge" huge map and a slideshow. to produce a slideshow is easy though, to make huge battle that can be played is not so easy anymore.

by the way the file is still not through the repository, seems odd to me. is this normal, anyone uploads there more often and knows how long it takes for it to the through validation?

Broadswords XIX corps map. It needs detail added, but the topology is great and the road network is in. I have been messing around with a version of this to be a fictional area of Lorraine.

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php...leinfo&id=1438

or Pete's 2x2k map. Pete's maps are always really well done.

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php...leinfo&id=1921

And there are probably a dozen more

i have seen broadsword´s one, but it got lots of bocage

have to check out pete´s map if it is a compartmentalized bocage prison or not. heck i need that east front title to arive, all the normandy maps stuffed with bocage, i wonder why that is, noone could possibly want to play that(irony!)

[Erwin]

Looking at the scenario d/l'd from CMMODS now. Looks fabulous. Altho' without the CMFI innovation of "alt B - night brightness" I couldn't see a thing until I ramped up the Gamma and brightness (so that typing this is almost blinding!). (I sure hope that the next patch will add that facility to CMBN!)

It would also be good to have the Ford marked, as I can't see it. I guess I will have to try putting waypoints along the river's length until it's found. (Edit: Found it next to the bridge, doh!) There is also mention of a "rough path to Froitscheidt" through the woods that vehicles are supposed to be able to use. However, I could not find any such path. There is an impassible (to vehicles) tributary running almost all the way to Froitsheid, so no point sending vehicles that way ayway.

As many know, I LOVE huge scenarios so am looking forward to this one. Be warned it took about 4 minutes to load, and we'll see hiow it runs as more reinforcements arrive. I had an almost state of the art machine 4 yerars ago, so this may be nature's way of telling me it's time for a new one.

Wonderful map by sburke and Pandur's scenario looks very interesting. My only disappointment is that not much armor will be involved.

[sburke]

i have seen broadsword´s one, but it got lots of bocage

Are you sure, the base map didn't have the bocage laid in, just a ground tile to denote where the bocage lines might go. The actual map has only a few trees, some Church buildings, locations names etc. No actual bocage. Check the 3d view.

[A Canadian Cat]

<snip>have to check out pete´s map if it is a compartmentalized bocage prison or not. <snip>

A friend and I have a huge 20 000 point quick battle going on Pete's 2k x 2k map. It is defiantly *not* a bocage prison. This map is really awesome actually. There is lots of interesting features an room to maneuver.

Link to my side of the DAR thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=105660

Link to the other side of the DAR thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=105686

[Pandur]

Erwin,

do you maybe use a CRT screen, the old box shaped monitors? i had this problem in CMSF, i couldnt see anything at night but it went away over the time, either as i changed monitor or with CMBN. look i made a screen of the setup zone at scenario start, you can see the bridge, the ford and stuff clearly, i never thought other players would have pitch black at 0545.

however its about sunrise so it will get brighter soon, but weather is overcast so the effect is dampened somewhat.

My only disappointment is that not much armor will be involved.

well i hold it like this, i like armor and combined arms scenarios but i dont like to turn something into an armor slug fest. i try to have exactly so many armored vehicles so they can influence and participate but not dominate. its a fine line and depends on each player how he uses his tanks, but generally i take one tank less before i take one more into the scenario, "overarmorisation" is a thing i try to avoid. it can be fun though if the battle is specially designed for that but not in a combined arms scenario where the infantry should play a big part also.

in the end if you count the marders in, you have 12 armored vehicles in the scenario 4 of them tigers. i found its a good fit.

the base map didn't have the bocage laid in

no, i just assumed(first mistake )that from reading the description, i cant remember exactly but it made it sound as it would be bocage country. maybe i did not read far enough ill look it up.

[A Canadian Cat]

It would also be good to have the Ford marked, as I can't see it. I guess I will have to try putting waypoints along the river's length until it's found. (Edit: Found it next to the bridge, doh!) <snip>

Glad you found it. I thought I would share my technique for finding fords when they are not marked. What I do is put the camera at level 1 and position it in the middle of the river. It will go under water. Now move the camera and follow the river. The fords will be obvious in short order. You can even tell the difference between shallow and deep fords once you have seen both.

[Pandur]

hehe, as you can see the river is dry, its a CMSF river so i though the ford is pretty obviouse as it is, i think. i thought about adding water, but i figured ever single FPS is needed so i dont add water in an area that is basically setup zone and not a hotspot of the map.

as noted in the designer notes, i only put the ford there to have an alternative and additional crossing, to speed up the deployment of the Co´s. i did not want to force the player to squeeze everything over one bridge, instead i gave him the chance to bog some vehicles in the ford also

no, never had a vehicle immobilized in playtesting, one marder just bogged for a few moments, thats it.

[sburke]

hehe, as you can see the river is dry, its a CMSF river so i though the ford is pretty obviouse as it is, i think. i thought about adding water, but i figured ever single FPS is needed so i dont add water in an area that is basically setup zone and not a hotspot of the map.moments, thats it.

Yeah that was one of the issues I had with this map. The Kall valley slopes over the course of the map, however water comes in only one level in CM. I had a number of folks give suggestions (I can't recall who all it was, but I really appreciated all the input I got) and the net result is the Kall stream is represented more by mud, marsh and rocks than anything else.

As to the armor, I am with you on this Pandur. Too much armor and it becomes a tank engagement. That's fine if that is want you want, but if you want combined ams you need to tone down the armor support quite a bit. Sometimes I think armor afficionados only want variations on a Kursk theme.

[Baneman]

Erwin, Pandur may be correct about the monitor - or if it's old, it may also have trouble showing night scenes.

Back when I had an old CRT ( both possibilities in one ), night missions I attempted to play in IL2 came up as impenetrable blackness, it was only when I saw someone's screenshots on a work machine I realised my monitor simply couldn't render the contrast properly.

When I got a newish flatscreen, I could then see stuff at night in both CM and IL2.

[Erwin]

I have a very nice 30" flatscreen (2560x1600). Playing with the brightness and gamma brings everything up nicely. It's just irksome.

Pandur: Another issue is that you give quite detailed orders as to what we should do with each company and even the arty. I think it's way more fun to figure out that on our own. It makes me suspicious that if we do anything different to what you order, we could "break" the game.

Also, I tried to send the inf halftracks thru the woods with the inf, and it appears very hard for them to make headway (where is that path you mention in the briefing?) - plus as I mentioned earlier there is a riverlet that is impossible for vehicles to cross and help at Company 1 objective ayway. That's fine. Just wondered why we were given so many halftracks and other vehicles for the onmap company in the first place.

But, am having a blast so far (10 minutes in). SAVEGAMES fortunately don't take as much time as loading. So, I guess the advised technique is to not stop playing until the end.

[Erwin]

Up to 30 minutes in and having fun.

***POSSIBLE SPOILERS***

Not much happens until after 2nd company reinforcement arrives 15 minutes into the scenario. I spotted and KO'd two US recon vehicles in the ten minutes or so after that.

As for the 1st Company that starts on-map, the briefing says that it will take an hour to march 1st Company thru the woods to the objective that your briefing ordered for it, and I can see that's pretty accurate with a simple MOVE command. (It would take even longer if you want to go carefully with HUNT etc.)

I dunno how historical the senario is, but it would be more ENTERTAINING if 1st Company had something else to do for that hour. Maybe put some small US recon units patrolling in the woods would avoid the 30 minutes of boredom on that flank so far.

ALTERNATIVELY, start the scenario 15 minutes later with 2nd Company's arrival, and have 1st Company appear as a reinforcement around turn 50 - ie: about 10 minutes HUNT from its objective. That would also have the benefit of avoiding playing CM:TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT for several minutes as one tries to get all those units across the bridge. Since the bridge and ford are unopposed, am not sure why you even have those map features. They add nothing in game terms.

This is a really great game so far as I love the size and scope, but I think the above would reduce some of the boring/frustrating aspects.

Also note that at around 40 minutes into the game, save times are around 40 seconds. I think load times are also increasing over 4 minutes.

[Pandur]

*****POSSIBLE SPOILERS*****(possible minor spoilers here)

Pandur: Another issue is that you give quite detailed orders as to what we should do with each company and even the arty. I think it's way more fun to figure out that on our own. It makes me suspicious that if we do anything different to what you order, we could "break" the game.

hm dunno, maybe my english sux, i tried to be not to specific. but i also dont want some possible players that never played with huge map and a battalion before to have some rough idea what to do and not quit right in the setup zone. so i gave a rough idea on what would be most time efficient plan, doesnt mean you need to follow it.

no you can not break anything in my eyes, you can try to drive 1st Co right into Schmidt but it wont be a smart idea. thats why i set a 4H time limit, you can try all the stuff you want.

you have 6 inherent 81mm tubes and 6 120mm and 4 105mm and 4 170mm tubes, and i said i "reccomend" only the rocket battery! to be used for the pre planed barrage. thats all i said about arty, i dont find that to specific. again its was just some hint for a player thats a bit overwhelmed by the size at first, feel free to plaster anything you like with the rockets

Also, I tried to send the inf halftracks thru the woods with the inf, and it appears very hard for them to make headway (where is that path you mention in the briefing?) - plus as I mentioned earlier there is a riverlet that is impossible for vehicles to cross and help at Company 1 objective ayway.

the path is leading from the middle area off the map with the fields through the ravine into the Froitscheidt objective. it runs east west through the ravine. on the tactical map its roughly where the off map mortar range is marked in blue. on the screen in post one its easy to see between kommerscheidt and froitscheid, the brown line through the woods.

the halftracks will have a extremely hard time through the woods if they can make it at all. thats why i noted in the briefing that objective Froitscheid is a infantry only fight till you can get the "path" to it cleared.

i think i should have been even more specific in the briefing

Just wondered why we were given so many halftracks and other vehicles for the onmap company in the first place.

one reason, supplies. as it is a infantry only fight at first you want more ammo, you want the mortar shells from the mortar halftrucks. and later on when Froitscheid is clear you may need vehicles to move troops somewhere and even more ammo for 1st Co. just park them somewhere and forget them for some good time, later you likely want them.

I dunno how historical the senario is, but it would be more ENTERTAINING if 1st Company had something else to do for that hour. Maybe put some small US recon units patrolling in the woods would avoid the 30 minutes of boredom on that flank so far.

its a fictional axis late war attack, not so historical

i thought about putting scouts but i did not. reason was that you can concentrate on getting a foothold in kommerscheidt with 2nd company, that should keep you busy. you will get a good chunk of time fighting on 2 seperate loactions later on.

ALTERNATIVELY, start the scenario 15 minutes later with 2nd Company's arrival, and have 1st Company appear as a reinforcement around turn 50 - ie: about 10 minutes HUNT from its objective. That would also have the benefit of avoiding playing CM:TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT for several minutes as one tries to get all those units across the bridge. Since the bridge and ford are unopposed, am not sure why you even have those map features. They add nothing in game terms.

playing CM:Traffic Management can be a hassle but its a needed part when playing a Mot or Armored battalion in the attack. i could have spawned the player companys right at their objectives at the give times, but first, they have by far not enough ammo, second, covering all the distances later on, on foot is not desirable from a gameplay perspective.

[sburke]

It would also be good to have the Ford marked, as I can't see it. I guess I will have to try putting waypoints along the river's length until it's found. (Edit: Found it next to the bridge, doh!)

It is the only water AS on the map LOL. You really need to correct your monitor situation (or maybe visit the optometrist - when was your last check up? )

[Erwin]

Pandur: I LOVE huge scenarios like yours, so those of us who are huge scenario fans don't suffer from those confusion problems. But, I think that you may be correct that many who have only played small scenarios may need help. You may want to indicate that the briefing info are not "orders" (which I thought they were), but "suggestions". I would also put those suggestions in the DESIGNER NOTES under "If you are confused and don't know what to do...".

***POSSIBLE SPOILERS***

Since the bridge is not defended by any enemy, am not sure what the point of the irritation of crossing it is, other than to be a PITA. There is no gameplay challenge. It would improve the GAMEPLAY if one had to initially force a crossing against some opposition (as it currently takes a while to make any enemy contact). It felt odd that the enemy would have no recon patrols, or forward skirmish positions/listening posts.

It is also a shame that so much of the wonderful map is basically not used/played on since there is nothing happening until one gets close to the objectives.

RE the "Woods Path" I thought it was from somewhere near the bridge through the woods to the left map edge and then on to the 1st company objective. I spent a lot of time trying to get vehicles through that before giving up. So, yes, it would be helpful to indicate more precisely where that path actually is.

A major reason for NOT having to march an entire company unopposed through woods for an hour, is that is really slows down loading and saving of game turns to have so many extra units on the map so unnecessarily early.

I will report how long it takes to load and save after 3rd company arrives(!)

[Pandur]

***** SPOILERS *****

Since the bridge is not defended by any enemy, am not sure what the point of the irritation of crossing it is, other than to be a PITA. There is no gameplay challenge. It would improve the GAMEPLAY if one had to initially force a crossing against some opposition (as it currently takes a while to make any enemy contact). It felt odd that the enemy would have no recon patrols, or forward skirmish positions/listening posts.

It is also a shame that so much of the wonderful map is basically not used/played on since there is nothing happening until one gets close to the objectives.

been away for a bit;

you will see that the amount of time is not so unlimited as it seems, to have a fight for the crossing and fight up to the objectives could cost the player these few turns that he needs in the end. i know the scenario and usually won(if i made a win that is) in playtests with roughly 40(60 to 30) turns left on the clock, so for someone that doesnt know the scenario at all these 40 turns will be needed, i cant spend this time somewhere else, instead it needs to stay available to give players some room.

also when walking on the edge of decent performance every unit counts that you add or subtract from the force list(thats why i have exits for the player). i know having some forward scouts at some places would make perfect sens but if you would have build this thing you would know that its better to not have these unfortunately. however this should not distract from the big picture i hope.

about the PITA bridge, i pushed the axis force over the bridge and ford several times. in fact i learned a great deal in the traffic management department that helps me also in smaller scenarios i play. since i have 30 seconds pause between vehicles crossing the bridge i lay waypoints for one platoon per 2 turns(full company on the move, roughly 10 turns; without any jams). last vehicle of 4 got 1:30 pause, i found this to be only a light strain on the player. however if you lay waypoints for a whole company at once and end up with a big traffic jam, you need to refine you traffic management skills. i dont know how you handled the crossing but its not so bad i found.

[Erwin]

Yes, I had to plot multiple individual waypoints for every single vehicle(!) and then give staggered pauses at the waypoints to avoid jams. This took an unacceptable amount of time as it has nothing to do with the GAME since it is an unopposed crossing. And even all of that was sometimes not enough to avoid jams.

I find it strange that designers often want players to waste lot of time on unnecessary work before they get close to the battle. And as I said, one would not have processing power issues you mention if one didn't have to march an entire company for ONE HOUR unopposed thru woods to get close to an objective.

I understand that this is your baby and you have put a lot of work into this. But when you ask for feedback you should be prepared to consider the comments. not just get respond as if you have already decided the scenario is perfect and you don't want to consider any alternative viewpoint.

I am doing a lot of work trying to play this scenario and give you good feedback. You will notice that there have been comments from other scenario designers that no one even plays their scenarios at all.

BTW: Now that I am one hour into the scenario and heavy action has started in the center town I am having a wonderful time! However, the first 30-45 minutes imo were largely a waste of time as they largely dealt with traffic control issues and watching a company MOVE thru woods.

[sburke]

I am doing a lot of work trying to play this scenario and give you good feedback.

All I can say is wow. That takes some serious brass to say while pleading with others to create work for you to your design specs

[mjkerner]

! However, the first 30-45 minutes imo were largely a waste of time as they largely dealt with traffic control issues and watching a company MOVE thru woods.

Different strokes for different folks. I love to watch infantry move through the CM terrain.