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Blackhand, stop ascribing motives to people you hardly know, so I don't rate SPR highly because it was made by a liberal, grow up! I personally do not like the movie for all the reasons mentioned, not because of the directors politics (I might suggest if you view disagreement, to your personal opinion, through a political lense it is you who has a problem with bias).

As for the 'veterans think it's great so it must be accurate' argument, bunkum! I know vets who think it's just like any war film, with more blood and guts, I know others who think it better at simulating how close and confined combat was, I have yet to find a veteran who thinks it is accurate in portraying life in a squad. The oft quoted reactions of Vets shaken up, might be because of the amazing soundtrack, shooting bullets over the microphones into slabs of beef. A very close friend, who has been to numerous warzones, was badly shaken by the films sounds, as it brought on his PTSD and he found himself flinching.

Luke, this is a good article, which might explain the reasons for the conflation of events.

http://www.subsim.com/books/dasboot.htm

Interesting that some U Boat veterans hated the men falling apart scenes, that we have said make the movie so tense.

SPR, in my mind, takes its rightful place as an average warfilm. Its excellent production values and attention to detail are undermined by mediocre acting, a lame plot and a tendency to lapse into pretentious pseudo-philosophical ramblings. The real killer though, is my complete and utter lack of any emotional investment in the characters, apart from a desire to slap Upham. Who cares if they all get wasted? I wanted the medic to shut up and die quickly so we could move on, but a similar scene in " A Midnight Clear" is like a powerful blow to the senses, you wanted to desperately help the guy. Why? Because the movie had skillfully built up the small cast of characters and you felt vicariously attached. Same thing with Memphis Belle, two many characters sketched too fleetingly, but the one intimate scene, where the letters are being read still tears me up. I happen to think war movies are good when they are movies about war, SPR was a war movie, focusing on action and drama and paying lipservice to the participants emotional development.

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This is the game for all you ultra-realists:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-images-multimedia/45008-most-realistic-video-war-game-yet.html

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I personally do not like the movie for all the reasons mentioned, not because of the directors politics (I might suggest if you view disagreement, to your personal opinion, through a political lense it is you who has a problem with bias).

Oh, guilty as charged . . . and I'm still willing to put five bucks on the table that says you're voting for Romney.

Anyway, we agree on this to some degree:

Its excellent production values and attention to detail are undermined by mediocre acting, a lame plot and a tendency to lapse into pretentious pseudo-philosophical ramblings.

I simply think that, as a whole, it all comes together well. As a movie, that's what it is supposed to do and for the vast masses, (John Bircher's not included) it did.

We disagree on this:

The real killer though, is my complete and utter lack of any emotional investment in the characters . . .

Personally, I was able to make a connection, on some level, with each character. Some I liked, some I didn't (Upham and the BAR gunner, forget his name . . . Reiben maybe?).

The scene where

while his squadmates were trying to save him is VERY gripping. I simply don't know how anybody could watch that and say "die already". WTF? Forget the fact that the whole scenario is "bunkum" (this small squad wouldn't have attacked that place in the first place . . . although an excuse is given in the film). I mean, maybe you think that guys don't call for their mothers or something when they go down. Fact is, they do.

It seems you think the movie tried to do too much, and failed. Myself and most others think it tried to do A LOT . . . and succeeded.

It's just a difference of opinion.

No big deal.

Anyhow, Band of Brothers was MUCH better. Because it had time to do all the stuff it needed to. That's the difference between two hours and twenty.

The Pacific . . . wasn't half as good because . . . again, it tried to do too much. It tried to tell too many stories. None of them well.

The battle scenes were well-adapted from the books and very well done. It was like watching what I had read, exactly as I had imagined it. OTOH, the maudlin home-front/leave scenes just didn't work. Not for me anyway . . . and no, I'm not voting for Romney (or the other one).

:)

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-The scene where the dieselman nearly loses it and the captain has to pull his pistol in an attempt to get the matter under control. In reality, if such a situation would have happened the Chief of the Boat (Oberstuermann) would have lost any confidence the captain had in his ability to control the enlisted men and would have been promptly kicked off the boat the next time they docked.

I disagree. When he came walking out all freaked out, they all came to the realization that he was losing it at the same time. When he was told to chill and get back there - he did. The last thing any Captain or XO would want to do is replace the COB. It takes months for a COB and crew to gel, so no way they would want to bring in a new one - they are just too critical to the operation of the boat. That diesel operator was a badass and everyone knew it, so when he went back on watch, the incident was over and forgotten.

-Related to the above: if an officer (even a visiting one at that) had had a greasy rag thrown in his face in reality and the COB did nothing about it, it again would point to him having a serious lack of control over his men. That type of junk simply wasn't tolerated in the German military.

Yup. That wouldn't have been tolerated - period. End of story. I didn't like that scene and it struck me as odd that they would portray an enlisted doing something like that, because he would have known better. Of all the minor things in the movie that were inaccurate, that was the only one that jumped out at me and bothered me.

The COB would have been all over him, and he would have been punished severely. They were trying to show that since he was an outsider and "just" a correspondent, that he hadn't earned the respect of the crew yet - which is a valid - but damn.. no way they would have done that.

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... They were trying to show that since he was an outsider and "just" a correspondent, that he hadn't earned the respect of the crew yet - which is a valid - but damn.. no way they would have done that.

I agree, but am willing to tolerate it as "movie shorthand" - sometimes you just don't have time to get something like that across any other way. Plus the bulk of the audience have no grog-credentials, so the shorthand works on most of the audience.

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A very good example is that Band of Brothers can be described as Saving Private Ryan without the girlie, sentimental bits. I remember when I first watched SPR and came out of the cinema thinking “if only someone could make a war film without the unrealistic sentimental bits...”. Then to my huge relief Band of Brothers turned out to be just that.

Well then, what about the episode in Bastogne with the nurse. She and Winter start to get close and then she buys it. It's understated and I liked it that way, but some would still say it's a play on sentimentality.

Michael

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When I went in to see 'Patton: Lust for Glory' in the cinema, I was very disappointed when the movie opened with the entire screen filled with the Stars and Stripes. But the 'BOO!' (I'm not American) hadn't escape my mouth before this tiny figure strutted out in front of it. My 'Boo' was transformed into a Hurra! Genius. I loved it. The cinema produces some wonderful surprises.

'Saving Private Ryan': the cinema is in darkness and we hear sombre bugle music. From the darkness emerges an enormous American flag. We pan out and we find it's flying in an American war cemetery and we follow an aged veteran and his family as they walk through the large number of white tombstones. Williams' music score here is extremely effective here and makes the scene almost unbearably moving to watch. Then, as he falls to his knees, overcome with grief in front of one particular tombstone, we move in to the veteran's face, the family and the background lost to him and us as the past overwhelms him. The camera focuses on his eyes and the veteran's face is transformed into Hanks' face. (I honestly thought that Hanks was the veteran) and we're on the approach to Omaha beach.

That was brilliantly done. We don't need to say anything about what follows because we've all seen it and agree that it's the best bit of the film, if not the best battle scene in cinema's entire history. I don't like Hanks and he will spoil any movie for me. I don't think he's a bad actor and I know he is very popular but he just doesn't work for me. The 'chemistry' just isn't there. However, Hanks aside, I didn't really engage with any of the characters in the film except one: the doctor, Medic Wade, and that was solely because of his dialogue about him pretending to sleep when his mother came to his bedroom. I did that too when I was a child. I suspect that the 'mother' story is the girlie bit that sixxkiller is referring to. I felt that scene was a bit anachronistic as I'm not sure men of that generation were quite so forward about expressing their feelings. However, that one scene saved the middle section of the movie for me as it gave me someone that I could identify with. And he bought it too. Very sad. (Funny, but Woody Harrelson's death scene in 'The Thin Red Line' was equally moving for me because it was so intimate. Same with 'The Grey')

For what it's worth, SPR doesn't even come close to making my top 100 movies of all time. I would have an extremely hard time choosing one of the following three for my number one of all time pick because they're all so damned good and I'd feel bad about passing over the other two. They are, in order of their release...

The Godfather

The Godfather 2

Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring (Peter Jackson)

Note that I wouldn't have Godfather 3 or either of the following LotR movies in my top 100 either but the battle scene at Helms Deep is probably going to be my favourite battle scene of all time until I die. You'll note that all three have utterly stunning soundtracks. Music maketh the movie for me as it did in Helms Deep too. When I watch that scene I like to pump the volume up as high as it will go.

edit to add:

I think 'Band of Brothers' is superior to SPR too. But it's an HBO TV series and therefore we really get to know and like most of the characters. I also never saw it in the cinema (Das Boot was originally made for the cinema but I didn't see it there) and so I wouldn't rate it as a war movie.

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I disagree. When he came walking out all freaked out, they all came to the realization that he was losing it at the same time. When he was told to chill and get back there - he did.

I think maybe you're mixing scenes up (it has been a while since I've watched the movie, though). The scene I'm referencing is when the chief dieselman makes a dash for the conning tower and they have to hold him back from doing so. As the scene is unfolding, the captain returns with his pistol. Like I said, if things in reality had got to the point where the captain had to draw his pistol, that would mean the COB had lost a great deal of his ability to control the enlisted part of the crew.

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... the battle scene at Helms Deep is probably going to be my favourite battle scene of all time until I die. You'll note that all three have utterly stunning soundtracks. Music maketh the movie for me as it did in Helms Deep too. When I watch that scene I like to pump the volume up as high as it will go.

...

Not to mention that the sound of the rain on the armour is a touch of pure genius :)

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I always thought Das Boot was originally a German TV series and later re-edited for the big screen.

But found this:

"Several versions of the film and video releases have been made: The first version to be released was the theatrical 150-minute (2½-hour) cut, released to theatres in Germany in 1981, and in the United States in 1982. It was nominated for six Academy Awards (Cinematography, Directing, Film Editing, Sound, Sound Effects Editing, and Writing). Much more footage had been shot for the film than was shown in the theatrical version, and in 1985, a TV miniseries of Das Boot was shown on German and Austrian television. Aired in three parts, it had a runtime of almost five hours. Petersen then oversaw the editing of six hours of film, from which was distilled Das Boot: The Director's Cut, 216 minutes long (3 hours, 36 minutes), released in 1997, which combines the action sequences seen in the feature-length version with character-development scenes contained in the mini-series. In 2003, the Starz/Encore movie networks finally premiered the complete, uncut miniseries version on U.S. television. This version, running 293 minutes (4 hours, 53 minutes), without commercials, was released to DVD on June 1, 2004, as Das Boot: The Original Uncut Version."

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  • 3 months later...

Was trying to remember what was depicted in one of the war films that started this thread, during which I came across some material on White Tiger, from the people who put it together at MosFilm. Turns out my read on it was spot on. The director says the novel on which it was based, Tankman, reminded him of Moby Dick, one of the director's favorite books. The film was done old school, with no CGI.

Many goodies here, to include two Russian language vids.

http://whitetiger-en.mosfilm.ru/about-film

This is an excellent and insightful Russian review of the film, placing many aspects of it into context.

http://russiaprofile.org/film_reviews/60237.html

Regards,

John Kettler

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Spielberg just couldn't let the cemetery scene go without making sure Jewish (no I am not anti-Semitic) soldiers Star of David stones were in as many shots as possible. What's that all about? Then the obligatory bash the Brits dialogue with Monty being the usual suspect.

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Spielberg just couldn't let the cemetery scene go without making sure Jewish (no I am not anti-Semitic) soldiers Star of David stones were in as many shots as possible. What's that all about? Then the obligatory bash the Brits dialogue with Monty being the usual suspect.

1.It's about the fact that he is in charge of the film, he get gets to do what he wants.

2. We Yanks love to bash Monty, no secret there.

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I second that Altipueri. True of a number of my relatives who served, fought or lived through it. Morale is rightly very important in the game...

As it goes, my grandmother was a wireless op (and other jobs I think - she's been dead since 1979 so can't ask) on AA on the south coast.

Indeed Monty does have a reputation as a 'bit of a dick' - clearly this was the case and Eisenhower spent a lot of energy sorting stuff out - he clearly valued him as a commander though. This is often a polarised debate between US and UK - probably not helpful if we want to get as close to the facts as possible. Saving Private Ryan's exclusion of any Brit and Commonwealth references with the exception of slighting Monty probably didn't help either :D

For a book written by a participant and really biased towards Monty I recommend, 'Victory in Normandy' by Major-General David Belchem, head of Monty's Operations and Planning Staff throughout the Normandy campaign. I haven't googled to check if in or out of print (I got mine second hand) but this book is particularly strong, as you might imagine, on the logistics and preparation of the initial assault and then the challenges of supply etc.

Lawrence

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Whereas many of those who actually served, such as my mum who as a twenty year old was in charge of an anti aircraft gun in Brussels in 1944/1945, thought he was inspirational.

He was that, and communicating an optimistic outlook to the average Tommy was one of his great strengths as a general. It also seems to me that most of the time he had a pretty shrewd idea of what his army was and was not capable of and seldom tried to push them beyond their limits. Where I think he fell down and where it hurt his reputation the most was his lack of candor, even a lack of respect, for his allies, especially the US.

Michael

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It just gets a bit boring when any Hollywood director goes down the bash the brit road.

I couldn't agree more, Para. As a dyed in the wool Anglophile, I hate that! Monty was " dickish" and had a tremendous ego...but Patton was just as bad. Regardless, Monty certainly was a great morale booster to his troops. And if Market Garden had worked out as planned, he would have been THE hero of the Western Theatre.

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