George MC Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I've made some screenshots using the scenario to illustrate the sequence of events when Wittmann's attacking Tigers were nailed by the Northamptonshire Yeomanry - and/or the Sherbrooke Fusiliers. 1230Hrs Tigers move out in column - Dollinger's Tiger leading; Wittmann on the front left. Höflinger follows driving parallel to Wittmann's Tigers along the RN158 Dollinger's Tiger is in the lead as the unit advances. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Magnificent! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Gordon's Sherman (Ekins was the gunner) concealed in an orchard had a good field of fire across the route of Wittmann's advance. Radley-Walters A Squadron (Sherbrooke Fusiliers) had taken up position in the the ground of the walled chateau of Gaumensil. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 At about 1240Hrs the Tigers come under fire and Ekins bags the first kill - the rearmost Tiger. Which brews up. Wittmann radios "MOVE! ATTENTION! ATTENTION! ANTI-TANK GUNS TO THE RIGHT! - BACK-UP!..." At about the same moment it appears Wittmann's Tiger is hit and he goes 'off the net'. At the same moment Höflinger's Tiger is hit and brews up with all the crew managing to bail out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Outstanding job, George! That Canadian documentary about this on YouTube was fascinating -- it made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck when the French farmer opened his relic room and there were Wittmann's throat mike, part of the turret floor, etc. And this is the guy who apparently found what was left of Wittmann when he was working the field in 1983. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 A great way to illustrate the action !. Any chance you can post an elevated view indicating the positions of the various participants so we can better understand the batttlefield. Do we get play on this map sometime, I surely hope so. I remember the massive map from CMBO " A day in August" or something similar. I played that map to death This looks even better P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Outstanding job, George! That Canadian documentary about this on YouTube was fascinating -- it made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck when the French farmer opened his relic room and there were Wittmann's throat mike, part of the turret floor, etc. And this is the guy who apparently found what was left of Wittmann when he was working the field in 1983. I was gobsmacked as well. Got me wondering if you can arrange to visit it? I'm surprised no-one else has ever mentioned he had that stuff stashed away. Of all the accounts I've read I've only seen a couple of references to a dog tag and a small pistol - not the bits of the tank! I've got my own Tiger visit in March as booked onto the Bovington Tiger I 131 VIP day. Looking forward to crawling around the beast! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 A great way to illustrate the action !. Any chance you can post an elevated view indicating the positions of the various participants so we can better understand the batttlefield. Do we get play on this map sometime, I surely hope so. I remember the massive map from CMBO " A day in August" or something similar. I played that map to death This looks even better P No worries. I'd have to set it up as it's difficult getting the same sequence of events as in RL. One thing playing this out makes clear though is that the Sherbrookes did have a narrow LOF to the Tigers BUT where Wittmann's Tiger was KOd is behind an orchard which the Sherbrookes did not have LOF through. Assuming I have the ground correct (and no reason to think I've not as X-ref against both maps and google earth and the documentary Ekin's nails the Tigers most of the time. Hardly definitive I guess. What the Sherbrookes Shermans do though when they fire is have the Tigers traverse their turrets to the left hand side to enagage them. Then Ekin's Firefly gets flank shots into either the rear turret or the side of the Tiger. It's possible though that one of the Sherbrooke Shermans took out Hoflinger's Tiger - this happens all the time in playtests. Firefly covering the RN158 has a great LOF straight down the road. I've got the OOBs all sorted and set-up. Now I just need to create AI plans. I'm hanging fire till the upgrade for CMBn comes along to micromanage the AI plan for Wittmann's lot. In my scenario the action goes on to cover the German attack through la Petite Ravine. So it rolls into a larger armoured engagement. I might consider releasing it first as a H2H only (that negates the initial need for AI plans) on a limited release i.e by email request conditional on feedback 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazing 88's Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Outstanding job, George! That Canadian documentary about this on YouTube was fascinating -- it made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck when the French farmer opened his relic room and there were Wittmann's throat mike, part of the turret floor, etc. And this is the guy who apparently found what was left of Wittmann when he was working the field in 1983. Once they walked into the room and panned to the floor and showed the parts on it, I knew right off the bat that that jagged piece lying there was the piece of turret floor that was missing in that famous photo of 007 blown to smithereens. It was awesome to see when they digitally placed that part into the pic like a puzzle piece... well done. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazing 88's Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 A great way to illustrate the action !. Any chance you can post an elevated view indicating the positions of the various participants so we can better understand the batttlefield. Do we get play on this map sometime, I surely hope so. I remember the massive map from CMBO " A day in August" or something similar. I played that map to death This looks even better P "HSG N Wittmann's Last Battle" scenario was made for CMETO (CMAK modded to represent the Western Front). That is well done as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 Did they rule out the Typhoon theory? I got to the point in the show where they showed the Typhoon rocket casing that was also found right at the Wittmann wreck site. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazing 88's Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Did they rule out the Typhoon theory? I got to the point in the show where they showed the Typhoon rocket casing that was also found right at the Wittmann wreck site. One of the investigators (a Frenchman, by his accent) suggested that a) they ripple fire and weren't very accurate, it would be very difficult to hit the tank and The Typhoon rocket weighs several pounds and if the rocket hit the rear deck of the Tiger, the rear would have been blown apart. In my opinion, the Sherbrooke's did bag him. 143-150m compared to a 900+m Yeomanry shot, with Wittmann's Tiger being hull down because of the rise in the ground between his tank and the Yeomanry?!... please. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I'm outin the Alps - Chamonix area catch up when get back. toughin it out eh? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 toughin it out eh? Oh yes Had a great time - superb weather and six routes in the bag. Was only scared for some of the time as well! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 One of the investigators (a Frenchman, by his accent) suggested that a) they ripple fire and weren't very accurate, it would be very difficult to hit the tank and The Typhoon rocket weighs several pounds and if the rocket hit the rear deck of the Tiger, the rear would have been blown apart. In my opinion, the Sherbrooke's did bag him. 143-150m compared to a 900+m Yeomanry shot, with Wittmann's Tiger being hull down because of the rise in the ground between his tank and the Yeomanry?!... please. Agree - does appear the Typhoon is a red herring (also no aircraft claimed any tank ills that day nor we they flying in that area. Guess that morning there had been the incident where the RAF had bombed some of the advanced Allied elements (that's where the Sherbrooke Fuslieirs lost their half track with the radio logs etc) so reckon all flying over the area (given close proximity etc) was stopped. Also the bombers were due to make another run about the same time as Wittmann set out (one of the reasons the Germans brought their attack forward as they thought their rear lines were about to be plastered). As to who killed Wittmann - without actually walking the ground I'm sure both parties could have KOd the Tiger. The thing that gets me is that in 1944 on that east side of Gaumesnil there was a farm and further south a load of outbuildings - all set within what appears to be orchards. Rad Walters does state their firing lines were facing south and south east. I'm sure they engaged the German armour coming down the RN158 but where Wittman and the other Tigers were KOd puts them on a/ a slight down slope (the ground rises just at Gaumesnil) b/ behind a lot of cover (orchard, hedges, buildings). What is possible is that there was a small keyhole position or a Sherman from the Sherbrookes moved into a better firing position (maybe even crossed the road and into the other buildings and took the shot. Risky thing to do though. Still I've become fascinated with this battlefield archaeology. I think at the end of the day chances are Wittmann's unit was taken apart by both NY and SF Shermans. As I said playing this scenario out for the opening moves it's surprising Wittmann's unit got as far as they did as you can take out the Shermans from further out. If you hold fire until they are wel in the kill zone - well no chance... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 George, if you like battlefield mysteries, archaeology and forensics, you'll find some great WW2 reading here: www.battledetective.com 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Thanks for the link. Some fascinating stuff there. Re the Cintheaux action. I've finished the map, units deployed, briefings written, op maps done. Just finishing on the tac maps for both sides. The onto AI Plans. I've been playing the opening section over and over. Given the limitations of CMBN and my map recreation of the battlefield the Brits nail the Tigers most times. The Scandinavians get some shots at the Tigers - enough to distract them or cause the Tigers to traverse left thus the Tigers are nailed in their right turret sides/rear. The Tiger going down the N158 (and the PzIVs on the next road) are all taken under fire from the Canadians in Gaumesnil and KOd. What I've found limits the Canadians engaging is the high wall around the château (although I have made gaps in it, as the Sherbrookes did) which gives limited fields of fire and the cluster of farm buildings and orchards across from Gaumesnil. These were there in 44 and up until 47 nut nowadays only one red roofed building is left of the original structures. The orchards are long gone. If anyone fancies having a go with this H2H I'd be happy to email a copy for a bit of playtesting. I think this one will shine more as a H2H, allowing ambushes, sniping and small unit manoeuvring. In saying that playing out stuff against the AI it's still rather challenging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMiller Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 George -- OUTSTANDING stuff here. Really fun to read about your use of the game engine to simulate various alternative scenarios regarding Wittmann's final moments. Yet another angle to this great game. Keep up the great work!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 George -- OUTSTANDING stuff here. Really fun to read about your use of the game engine to simulate various alternative scenarios regarding Wittmann's final moments. Yet another angle to this great game. Keep up the great work!!! Cheers mate! Just noted my post up above - err Scandinavians should be Canadians - hope that did not confuse anyone... Bloody spell check and err my poor proof reading skills! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMiller Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 No worries, George...I did stop reading rather abruptly when I came across that word, but I figured it was some sort of admissable warp in the fabric of reality... I seem to remember reading something when I was much younger about a Polish armored unit claiming to have taken out Wittmann...anybody else ever come across the same? Sorry I can't be more informative on this... EDIT: Just found this rather outdated discussion on Achtung Panzer: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen3.htm Polish 1st Armored wanted to stake claim to the kill... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 From what I've read Polish armour were moving up but arrived into the AO after Wittmann's unit were burning wrecks. It does appear though that they did then attack and engage Tigers and KOd one - but that was further east. Also they lost a lot of tanks to German tanks and AT guns on that flank - possibly from KG Waldmüller's PzIVs which had were working their way forward and had a clear field of fire to the east. Tout in his book "A Fine Night for Tanks" witnessed the Poles charge forward. So from what I've read the best contenders are the Brits (NY with Ekins as gunner) and Canadians (Sherbrooke Fusiliers) but actual tank/crew not known. The Canadians seem to have a good case BUT there is little or no direct evidence to suggest Wittmann was one Tiger they killed. I'm sure they took out Hoflinger's Tiger on the RN158 and some follow on PzIVs and a SP (JgpzIV?) but whether they actually shot and killed Wittmann is still open to debate I think. It's worth noting at the time no-one on the Allied side had even heard of MIchael Wittmann. All they knew was that Shermans had bested a clutch of Tigers. The interest in Wittmann is very much a post war thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerMiller Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 It's worth noting at the time no-one on the Allied side had even heard of MIchael Wittmann. All they knew was that Shermans had bested a clutch of Tigers. The interest in Wittmann is very much a post war thing. Yeah, I thought this was a real interesting nugget of info from the documentary. I suppose that even after Villers-Bocage the Allies wouldn't have had detailed intelligence on precisely who was responsible for smacking them upside the head. And the whole "Black Baron" thing was interesting as well! I guess I need to read Agte... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 It's always interesting to stop and realize how little (compare to us, in 2012) the participants on the ground in WWII actually knew about the war they were fighting, beyond their immediate patch of Hell and their own hazy, postwar, terrified anecdotal memories. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Just read this thread for the first time (never got into Wittmania myself). Great project. You still set the standard for historical scenarios. So if I read you right, you need to *force* the Tigers to hold fire in order to achieve the historical result? Or else, what? left to their own devices, they promptly spot and wipe out their ambushers? Or do results vary more widely? Just curious. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi LLF - thanks for the kudos much appreciated coming from yourself Some of the issues are related to the game engine e.g. trees are bushy things on poles. I've been playing about with various bocage type features within woodland which has helped concealment. The Tigers do spot and engage stuff - interestingly they spot the Canadians first but don't do well at getting hits (Canuk Shermans are behind a high wall). This causes the Tigers to rotate their turrets left letting the Brits get flank shots. A couple of Canuk Fireflies also get kills but the Brits seem to do most of the killing. I can get the Tigers pretty much imitating what Wittmann's unit did on the day but if you have the Brits etc hold fire for too long then the Tigers spot em and start getting kills. Overall though whichever way you cut it these Tigers following the route they did all die and pretty much in the same timescale as happened in RL. In a way though the Tigers driving to their deaths are a sideshow as the main attack consisted of PzIvs and they did inflict heavy casualties in what was effectively an armour knife fight in the area of la Petit Ravine - I've included this part of the action in the scenario. I've got one basic German AI Plan in place so if ya fancy a look just PM me and I'll fire it over. Cheery! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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