Battlefront....please explain.

[Fußball]

First off, I want to say great job on getting the game released in August. I've been a pretty avid supporter of your products and I've bought every CM installment thus far so I really appreciate what you guys are doing. No other tactical simulation scratches that itch for me. I appreciate the module style, if for nothing else, that we can get content sooner than waiting extended periods of time on a full release. It looks great so far, it seems to run more smoothly than Normandie but looks, in my opinion thus far, more refined. The map designs are also much better than what CMBN released with. I hope that the incremental patches and such will even out CMBN so I can just feel as if I'm switching theaters of war instead of switching back to a lesser version of the game.

I digress, my whole question was actually about the Panzer III. Why isn't it in the quick battle purchase options? I really hope I can use it in QBs, just like I wanted to use the Panzer II in CMBN...but it wasn't there either. I was so excited about using my undergunned Panzer III so I fired up a QB and...well, disappointment set in. Is this a design decision or something? I would rather not have to always play scenarios JUST to use the particular vehicle in question. Leaving the Panzer II and Panzer III out of QB purchases just seems silly, half the point of a QB for me was always being able to jump into a battle and enjoy whatever equipment I felt like using to simulate whatever. Maybe I'm missing something and it's there, but if it isn't, please add these back into quick battles. Oh, and just a little side note, put WWII photos back into the loading screen as well as the ammunition belt loading bar! That looked great! 3D game models for the loading screen are just so...plebian.

tl;dr: Love your work, where is my Panzer III in QBs, gonna go postal on BF HQ if demands aren't met.

Tschüß!

Erich

[ChrisND]

It is available in QBs, but only for the Luftwaffe.

[Fußball]

It is available in QBs, but only for the Luftwaffe.

Wow, that was quick! Thanks for that! I didn't even think to check the Luftwaffe equipment. Seems I need to do some reading up on TO&E for the Sicily engagement. However, am I right in the notion that the Panzer II isn't available in QBs in CMBN? I don't believe I've seen it for any branch's purchase options.

Tschüß!

Erich

[ChrisND]

I don't believe the Panzer II is in QBs in CMBN, but I think that was an oversight and not a deliberate omission.

The Panzer III is only available for Luftwaffe because their tank battalions present in Sicily were mixed and had Pz III companies in them. The Heer Panzer battalion was all Pz IVs. I think the Heer had some Pz IIIs around, but they were in HQ units or something.

[Fußball]

The Panzer III is only available for Luftwaffe because their tank battalions present in Sicily were mixed and had Pz III companies in them. The Heer Panzer battalion was all Pz IVs. I think the Heer had some Pz IIIs around, but they were in HQ units or something.

That was my understanding as well though I believed that Heer Panzergrenadiere were also equipped with mixed amounts of Panzer III as well, so that was my confusion. I also checked Tiger groups as well as, I know on the eastern front, Panzer IIIs were included as support tanks in Tiger Abteilungen until they were eventually phased out. Though I didn't think that was the case in Italy, Panzer III as support tanks I mean.

Tschüß!

Erich

[MikeyD]

Another thing that may throw you off. If you pick Luftwaffe armor Battalion for a QB you'll only see Pz IV variants at the bottom. But don't panic, the Panzer Battalion comes mixed 'light' and 'medium' companies. Light Panzer companies are Pz III M and N, its the medium Pz IV companies that have the selectible variation shown at the bottom.

[Mord]

The ammo load bar is a Vein mod. You can add that and your own WWII picks by placing them in the z folder. But first you have to check and see what the pics and bar are named so you can name the mods properly....or wait until someone does it. You are probably pretty safe just dropping Veins load bar in...they may have kept the same name for it.

Mord.

[Fußball]

The ammo load bar is a Vein mod. You can add that and your own WWII picks by placing them in the z folder. But first you have to check and see what the pics and bar are named so you can name the mods properly....or wait until someone does it. You are probably pretty safe just dropping Veins load bar in...they may have kept the same name for it.

Mord.

That should be an easy fix and, I would assume, it's the same. Though we see where that has gotten me thus far! I plan on trying some modding to FI soon so we'll see if everything works the same.

Another thing that may throw you off. If you pick Luftwaffe armor Battalion for a QB you'll only see Pz IV variants at the bottom. But don't panic, the Panzer Battalion comes mixed 'light' and 'medium' companies. Light Panzer companies are Pz III M and N, its the medium Pz IV companies that have the selectible variation shown at the bottom.

Thanks, but I did know that much already! hah Since you are here Mikey, I was always curious, did you lend your modding prowess to the model or graphic design of the vehicles in CMx2? It really seems like your style from the many (wonderful!) mods you made for BB/AK. I would know, I used all your vehicle mods when I played old CM!

Tschüß!

Erich

[Battlefront.com]

There are a couple of oddities with the Sicily setting in terms of who had what bits of equipment. It's not something we're used to as gamers or developers because realism isn't a concern. You want to have a Heer PzIII in Sicily? Go right ahead, despite them not having any in real life. Want a King Tiger with a Porche turret within a Waffen SS Heavy Tank Battalion? No problemo, despite it never happening. But for some strange reason we all want realism, and that means keeping things allocated the way they were in real life. Normandy's Commonwealth Module has all kinds of examples of this too.

Yup, the PzII Lynx was accidentally left out of the QB options. It's a complicated process to get all that stuff hooked up and working correctly. All kinds of data hookup problems had to be worked out of Italy's QB system, that's for sure!

Steve

[Fußball]

There are a couple of oddities with the Sicily setting in terms of who had what bits of equipment. It's not something we're used to as gamers or developers because realism isn't a concern. You want to have a Heer PzIII in Sicily? Go right ahead, despite them not having any in real life. Want a King Tiger with a Porche turret within a Waffen SS Heavy Tank Battalion? No problemo, despite it never happening. But for some strange reason we all want realism, and that means keeping things allocated the way they were in real life. Normandy's Commonwealth Module has all kinds of examples of this too.

I actually appreciate that you guys keep TO&E as accurate as possible to what units actually had. Especially seeing as how I'm not always up to snuff on what vehicles each unit had at [insert period/battle]. I really just didn't realize that the Heer wasn't equipped with any Panzer III in Sicily! So that was an oversight on my part.

Yup, the PzII Lynx was accidentally left out of the QB options. It's a complicated process to get all that stuff hooked up and working correctly. All kinds of data hookup problems had to be worked out of Italy's QB system, that's for sure!

I fully understand that, I thought it a bit of an oddity to just have left it out entirely. Thanks for the explanations though, always appreciated! Now if you just add those WWII photos back into the loading/titles screens...

Tschüß!

Erich

[ChrisND]

Thanks, but I did know that much already! hah Since you are here Mikey, I was always curious, did you lend your modding prowess to the model or graphic design of the vehicles in CMx2? It really seems like your style from the many (wonderful!) mods you made for BB/AK. I would know, I used all your vehicle mods when I played old CM!

Mike did about 90% (off the top of my head guesstimate) of the textures in CM:FI, both vehicle and environmental. Marco Bergman and Earl Grey also did some of the vehicles. Tarkus did the wonderful UI.

[Mord]

Yup, the PzII Lynx was accidentally left out of the QB options. It's a complicated process to get all that stuff hooked up and working correctly. All kinds of data hookup problems had to be worked out of Italy's QB system, that's for sure!

Steve

LOL and left out of the manual and game. I can't find it anywhere.

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

Off the top of my head 3 Heer Panzer Divisions had access to them during Normandy's timeframe. Not a large number even in total, but a fun vehicle none-the-less.

Steve

[Fernando]

That was my understanding as well though I believed that Heer Panzergrenadiere were also equipped with mixed amounts of Panzer III as well, so that was my confusion. I also checked Tiger groups as well as, I know on the eastern front, Panzer IIIs were included as support tanks in Tiger Abteilungen until they were eventually phased out. Though I didn't think that was the case in Italy, Panzer III as support tanks I mean.

According to Panzertruppen book:

Pz.Rgt.HG:

I and II Battalions: 43 PzKpfw III(lang), 3 PzKpfw III(75), 32 PzKpfw IV(lang), 7 PzBef.

III Battalion: 20 StuG, 9 StuH

15. PzGr.Div.

Pz.Abt. 215: 6 Pz III(lang), 46 PzKpfw IV(lang), 1 PzBef.

29. PzGr.Div.

Pz.Abt.129: 43 StuG, 3 PzBef.

Assigned to Pz.Div. H.G.

2./s.Pz.Abt.504: 17 PzKpfw VI

[ASL Veteran]

According to Panzertruppen book:

Pz.Rgt.HG:

I and II Battalions: 43 PzKpfw III(lang), 3 PzKpfw III(75), 32 PzKpfw IV(lang), 7 PzBef.

III Battalion: 20 StuG, 9 StuH

15. PzGr.Div.

Pz.Abt. 215: 6 Pz III(lang), 46 PzKpfw IV(lang), 1 PzBef.

29. PzGr.Div.

Pz.Abt.129: 43 StuG, 3 PzBef.

Assigned to Pz.Div. H.G.

2./s.Pz.Abt.504: 17 PzKpfw VI

Only one StuG company for the 29th PzGr Division was deployed to Sicily. The rest of the battalion was left on the mainland for coastal defence. The division commander for the 15th PzGr Division indicated that they only had 32 tanks in Pz Abt 215 so more than likely the Pz III were not operational (your maintenance units would give priority to the Pz IVs since it's the superior tank)

[Fernando]

Only one StuG company for the 29th PzGr Division was deployed to Sicily. The rest of the battalion was left on the mainland for coastal defence. The division commander for the 15th PzGr Division indicated that they only had 32 tanks in Pz Abt 215 so more than likely the Pz III were not operational (your maintenance units would give priority to the Pz IVs since it's the superior tank)

1. According to Jentz some parts of 29. PzGr.Div, including some parts of Pz.Abt.129, weren't tranfered to Sicily till July 22nd.

2. Perhaps not all Panzer on 15. PzGr.Div. were operational. However according to Jentz total write offs for the campaign in Sicily for that division were 5 PzKpfw III, 31 PzKpfw IV and 1 PzBef. That are 37 Panzer (36 if we exclude the PzBef.). I guess some additional Panzers were succesfully transported to the mainland, so it means there were 37 or perhaps even more Panzers from 15. PzGr.Div. in Sicily

3. Regarding StuGs: According to Jentz during the night of 10/11 and 11/12 August 34 Panzers and 44 StuGs s were transported by ferry from Sicily to Italy. The rest of Panzers and StuGs left for rearguard duties were transported by the morning of 17th August, but I don't know how many. Jentz says Germans lost 118 Panzer and StuGs out of 217 efectively commited so about 99 weren't lost. It means about 21 additional Panzers and/or StuGs (99 - 78 = 21) were transported back to Italy by 17th August

Total StuG/StuH write offs were 4 StuGs and 3 StuHs for Pz.Regt. HG and 5 StuGs for Pz.Abt.129. It means a maximum of 22 out of 44 StuGs transported on 10/12 July were from HG (29 - 4 StuGs - 3 StuH total write offs = 22 StuGs/StuHs) . It means at least 27 StuGs from PzAbt.129 were in Sicily (44 - 22 = 22 StuGs + 5 write offs = 27). That's more than one company. I guess at least three companies from the Abteilung + the HQ company were in Sicily. I am sure there was just one StuG co. from Pz.Abt.129 in Sicily on 10th July, but it seems it was reinforced by most of the Abteilung by 22nd July.

[Sgt Hill]

Its this type of Banter that sets this game and community

apart from the rest...down to the last tank...good stuff.

And that eventually all will be made right one way or another.

No Prisoners

[ASL Veteran]

3. Regarding StuGs: According to Jentz during the night of 10/11 and 11/12 August 34 Panzers and 44 StuGs s were transported by ferry from Sicily to Italy. The rest of Panzers and StuGs left for rearguard duties were transported by the morning of 17th August, but I don't know how many. Jentz says Germans lost 118 Panzer and StuGs out of 217 efectively commited so about 99 weren't lost. It means about 21 additional Panzers and/or StuGs (99 - 78 = 21) were transported back to Italy by 17th August

That's nice, but don't forget that the HG panzer division had a full Stug battalion on the island and I'm sure some of them got transported off of Sicily. By far the largest armored contingent was the HG Panzer Division. Probably less than fifty tanks and assault guns were German Army.

[Redwolf]

I'm really not sure why enforcing this obscure restriction has such importance.

[Battlefront.com]

I'm really not sure why enforcing this obscure restriction has such importance.

Do you mean not allowing a particular force access to something it either didn't have or effectively didn't have? Well, because care about accuracy When trying to portray a particular battle or campaign it's important to constrict the choices to what was actually present. Otherwise the historical feel goes right out the window.

How important is this to people? For RTS guys it's downright "stupid" For our audience it is part of what separates us from the RTS games.

Steve

[Redwolf]

Yeah but it's a quickbattle situation that we are discussing here. Seems like a lot of effort going into this. And who knows whether existing records are really complete enough to reflect the odd Pz III in the Heer.

[JonS]

Yeah but it's a quickbattle situation that we are discussing here. Seems like a lot of effort going into this.

Not really, because the work has already been done. AIUI, the QB picker uses the same availability logic and rules that the Scen Editor does, and they have to get that stuff right for the editor. So, in effect, the QB picker routine gets that availability information for free.

And who knows whether existing records are really complete enough to reflect the odd Pz III in the Heer.

If the records aren't good enough to show the odd PzIII, then it simply doesn't matter, because the odd PzIII isn't worth worrying about. In other words, if it's just a matter of one or two PzIII, then they shouldn't be included anyway.

[MikeyD]

We went through this same thing with the Italian M14/40 tank. First there were definitely none on the island... or maybe there were a couple... or maybe there wasn't any after all... but there was that one grainy photo of a post-conflict vehicle dump... maybe. In the end it was decided if it that's difficult to verify the vehicle's existance there's just not enough documentation to justify it existance in-game. The turret go pulled off and we got Carro Commando instead.

[Fernando]

That's nice, but don't forget that the HG panzer division had a full Stug battalion on the island

There was no separate/additional Panzerjäger StuG Abteilung/Battalion for the HG division. The only HG StuG unit was III/Pz.Rgt.HG and has been already included in the count, so total for the HG division was 20 StuGs and 9 StuHs.

Nafziger (not reliable but useful) says that Abteilung was part of the PzGr.Rgt. while Jentz includes it in the Pz.Rgt. According to Jentz the StuG Abteilung was renamed III.Abteilung/Panzer-Regiment Hermann Göring on November 42.

and I'm sure some of them got transported off of Sicily. By far the largest armored contingent was the HG Panzer Division. Probably less than fifty tanks and assault guns were German Army.

Two times as much:

HG: 29 StuGs/StuHs + 46 PzKpfw III + 32 PzKpfw IV + 7 PzBef = 114 Panzers and StuGs. According to Jentz 217 Panzers and StuGs were commmited to the island so about 103 were Heer (217 total - 114 HG = 103 Heer):

15. PzGr.Div.: 6 PzKpfw III + 46 PzKpfw IV + 1 PzBef = 53

2./s.Pz.Abt. 504: 17 PzKpfw VI (Tigers) = 17

29. PzGr.Div.: 103 Heer - 70 (15.PzGr.Div. & Tiger Co.) = 33 StuGs and PzBefs out of 46 were on the island.

I include the the Tiger company in the Heer. It had been assigned on 30th June to 15. PzGr.Div but on 9th July it was assigned to the HG. However it was a Heer unit anyway.

[Fernando]

OK I have found that on 9th July it was ordered that 2./s.Pz.Abt.504 was reorganized under K.St.N. 1176 Ausf.B dated 5 March 1943 then assigned as organic part of the HG which was to determine the new designation for the unit.

In short then numbers are 131 LW Panzers/StuGs to 86 Heer ones

...if we take into account the 11 PzBef. as Panzers ;-) If not then there were at least 94 Heer Panzers and StuGs, so it means 29th PzGr.Div. got almost all their StuGs (41 out of 43) from 22nd July onwards

I guess 29.PzGr.Div had a StuG co. in the island on 10th July then got at least two companies, perhaps the three remaining companies, and the HQ one when they were released from coastal defence duties in the continent from 22nd July onwards